Whats up with Axiom ? I call no answer and no return on VM. I email and no replies to emails. been like two weeks . Bought QS10 and still waiting 6 weeks. Bought a VP160HP Nov1 and it arrived today. Love it so far. However, I had a VP160 to trade in and I have no idea how to ship it back as had no instruction nor a return label.

Two 160s are better than one. Just try it!

I’m still waiting on getting my VP180 returned … it’s packed up and waiting ….

I’ve also sent off a email but think
I might have find/reply to one of the order confirmed/shipped emails …

so far it’s the only way I found that works with Axiom’s new system (post Debbie at CS)
Replying to an email with an order # willl automatically create a ticket to which someone will respond

I feel that pain. I’m waiting to see if I can fire up this ZA-1000. I sent pictures in to get approval to switch it on after the toroid was discovered to be a bit loose and moving around inside the box.

Absolutely frustrating.

In another vein, speaking about Center channels, are they oriented horizontally for dispersion characteristics?

Or could you use one or two towers (vertically setup ) as a Center? I’m guessing there is a very good reason 100% of all Center channels are horizontal.

They are horizontal for installation convenience.

It's preferable to get a matching front for a centre.

If the HT was not intended to also be a 2 channel listening space I would have put 3 M5ow behind the screen.

Oh ok. Interesting. I really need to learn more about HT.

Yeah I guess the height of a tower as a Center would impede the screen, unless it went behind the screen.

Are there pre pro out there that offer 2 channels as a Center to put 2 towers in? Or 2 horizontal for that matter?

What would having 2 centres do vs just one? ( as mojo suggests above). ( I recall a pic mojo, of your double Center in your downstairs setup ).

Putting in double centres gives you some comb filtering to enjoy. Don't do it.

Suspect I won’t. I’ll be thankful one day to just have one horizontal CC in my theatre.

You should somehow get your hands on a 150v2. You'll say oooo la la. Then get a 160v4 and you'll pitch that 150 over your neighbor's roof. Then when you get your active LFRs, you'll hear what a real virtual centre sounds like and won't want to put the 160 back.

I’d love to do that with all those progressions through CC. I’m betting I can skip the 150v2 and go right to 160v4.

But based on the current levels of customer service I’m not sure what the future holds for more purchases for me from Braxiom. While I’m admittedly a bit of an Axiom fanboy the current service situation is switching me off a little bit. I hope they can bring back the great service they used to have. I should say, when the service is present, it’s good. They just need to be able to catch up I guess. Busy times. But the frontline service is needed badly.

A virtual center (just the right and left speakers) works well if you just have a single seat (where one can get a decent center image from the pair). Once you have several people or sit off center … the center action/dialog will not be centered. To correct this, to anchor centered sounds to the center of the screen, the center channel was created. Since most screens (TVs) are not acoustically transparent (AT) the center is put above or below the screen (usually below). The problem here is as screens get bigger you once again notice that the sound is not coming from the correct place … but from below the screen. An AT screen allows you to put the sound exactly where intended.

Note that this can be taken even further…. If your screen is wide enough you might have 5 speakers behind the screen (L, LC, C, RC, R). Of course you need a fairly sophisticated prepro to drive it.

Note that a center channel is really manufacture speak for a main channel optimized to be placed under your tv.

Until the ALFRs, I was never able to get any other Axioms to give me a virtual centre at MLP during movies. Maybe because my fronts are almost 13 feet apart? Dunno.

Mojo, it’s hard to center the action on a 27” TV running a 13’ sound stage

Thanks Rich. That’s a great breakdown of CC thoughts.

At what size of screen do you feel a CC centered / anchored properties begin to diminish?

That’s a personal call …. It’s dependent on a number of factors … your tolerance, size of screen, how away you’re sitting….
I have two screen setups right now … a 77” with a VP150 under it … MLP at about 9+ … no problems … Sounds great.
The VP180 under 150” screen, MLP @ 11.5 ft … would sometimes have dialog unnaturally coming from below where the people were.

Regarding your observation about the apparent image of the 180, I experienced the same thing with the 150v2, 160v4 and any Axiom bookshelf I tried. I couldn't fix the 150v2 no matter what. I go the 160v4 right under and against my 55" TV and that fixed it. It sounded as if voices came from the middle of the TV. The 160 was superior in terms of fidelity and polar coverage compared to the 150v2 by leaps and bounds.

That said, it didn't dawn on me how unnatural the 160 sounded until I put in the ALFRs and tried them without a centre. Never going back to a real centre!

Ya know … if you super glued your 150 to the middle of the screen the sound would have come from the correct place …
Just sayin’

I thought of that but my wall mount is too wimpy.

My m60's have not shipped yet it is now 40 instead of 25 days(took that option) if this goes on much longer can not see it not hurting Axiom(if has not already by other posts here) Which is sad but understandable!!

I don't think it hurts Axiom at all. Axiom likely recognizes revenue when it accepts the order and payment as opposed to when the goods are shipped. Payments are collected and accrue interest. When enough orders come in, Axiom cuts bulk purchase contracts with its suppliers for volume discounts. The customer benefits through various discount programs and so does Axiom.

The optics to the typical consumer appear as if there is so much demand that it affects lead time and therefore the product must be awesome.

I think ICW means a minimum of 25 business days.

Well if that is true(about 25 days min should state that clearly) but not having proper CS(returning phone calls & emails is what imo will hurt). .Just saying if no return calls or emails it will hurt especially if not corrected in a very timely manner Mojo....we can agree to disagree no problem...hoping get good news this week about my M60's shipping!!!

I totally agree the ICW should state minimum. And not returning e-mails for order status and issues is absolutely inexcusable.

ICW should be 25 maximum. Otherwise it would be I Can Wait More Than 25 Days, Into Infinity.

When I ordered my VP180ow, Andrew F. Told me ebony would be the quickest since it was in stock. Seems that the supply chain for their wood has been having issues. Can’t make something if you don’t have all the materials.

The problem here is one of communication. If it’s going to take longer than promised then they should email you. This of course takes a bit more sophistication (programming & order tracking) then perhaps you can expect from a small company … but I guess I see ICW like CV does …a promise of “if you can wait x days … we will get it to you”

Is the problem the long wait or the lack of communication?

Is it a few or a lot that are inconvenienced by the longer wait?

If you’re asking me …I’d say communication …
You might be upset on the wait but at least you know what is going on …

My experience with hundreds of customers tells me the same thing.

[quote=Mojo]Is the problem the long wait or the lack of communication?

Yes it is having to call & leave a message in the morning not hear back & having to call several times in a day to speak to anyone. Very frustrating to say the least.

Was told last Thursday that my speakers will be shipped either last Friday or early this week.....which means today is my lucky day as Wednesday is hump day ,LOL.....I have been a Axiom customer for 14+ years so spoiled with the old levels of CS....but soon that might be reduced if the Paradigm's sound as good or better!!!

What the hell is going on? Did Troy get his QS10s? Did Bruce's M60HP get delivered? OMG! The drama!!

Easy there Mojo !!! LOL!!! Not shipped yet will see if Weds is lucky day 4 me....really simple orded the 800F's today with the monster C600 center if they sound as good as the reviews say they do(heard 700F's 2 weeks ago in a showroom ....then the clock is a ticking as have the Paradigm's for a 10 trial!!

When do you get the Paradigms?

Sadly, I am falling into the category of lack of communication from Axiom. I was planning to order a pair of M100's with the Black Friday promotion to upgrade my M60's and move them to another room. My account was disabled for some reason and I couldn't access my loyalty rewards account. A simple email response from Axiom would have solved the issue. So, here I am wondering if my next upgrade purchase will be from the competition? With a current 5.1 system (VP180OW, EP350, M60's & QS8"s) I am wondering where my future $ might be spent? I understand that most manufacturers I struggling with supply chain/staffing issues however its the long term supporters of their product that are paying the price.

Mojo: Should be by Friday for the Paradigm's!!!


Hi Rockhead: You said exactly how I'm feeling had a problem(my fault) with my Anthem 740 heard back in less then 48hrs from them.I know Axiom is a smaller company...BUT not hearing back by email or phone call after sending messages has me a bit annoyed to be honest....if the 800's etc are excellent and do not get enough time to make a proper comparison......then sadly given the $$$ spent I will do what I must!!!

MoJo I am still waiting for A) a email reply B) a phone reply C) my QS10s. I been a couple years without but, it would be nice to have a reply or update atleast. Not ignoring me for two soon three weeks. I email and or called once a week for the last three weeks and not a return, And last was a email a month or so saying, kinda rudely. I got a real good deal and they not just handing me a set of QS10. I am sorry but A) they set the price on the B-Stock and it was Dec 28th a boxing day sale I put on layaway. I paid it off Oct 18th. B) they were on Boxing day sale C) after 20 years a only Axiom guy and many speakers bought and getting atleast 4 others here to buy I get a loyalty discount. So, I got a real good buy less than a $1000 but at that time they were like $1300 a pair before they went up. and I got them B-Stock. I'd just lie an update it maybe another 25 days or maybe under my Christmas tree. took me two years to build the room and piece together so not in a huge rush , but am excited to have a theatres system once again however only have the front three and a sub

So my M60's & VP-160 are on their way should have them by Thursday!!!!Yippee now will be able to decide properly which one's stay versus which gets returned......have to admit thinking this is going to be real close!!!

You'll have about 3 days to decide.

Troy, you'll get them by X-mas and then you can put this nightmare behind you...until...you upgrade!

Nope 10 days!!!

Oh I see. The Axioms are coming tomorrow. I assumed the Thursday that's a week away.

Yes and part of the process will be if the CS will be solved as it is a problem right now....but will it be solved in the next 6 months so that if need to speak with someone will be able to get a reply within a day or 2 which it seems is a problem right now!!

Sweet. And I'm on 6 weeks vacation. Yaaaaaahoooo!

Enjoy your vacation time!!!

Got a call from Andrew ( Fletcher ) today Re: my za-1000. All good to fire it up. ( I sent him pics of the internals with the cover off for inspection).

I’m listening to it right now with my Denon DCD-2700 CD player. So far so good. It works. I’m only a few songs deep but it sounds really great.

Will report back more on my the unit and it’s sound quality after listening more but it’s quite clear and smooth. Things seem more separated into individual sounds and instruments and positions. I’m listening with the sub off. Just the m60’s.

Anyway, I had a little chat with Fletcher and they are painfully aware of the CS situation and are focussed on catching up and returning service to the previous levels. Training new staff to pick up the slack. He went as far to say they plan to step it up even higher with CS. Additionally they are working towards building more things in house as well. He said they are also still playing catch-up from Covid supply chain issues ( which I believe as every market was hit including ones I work in ). Add Bryston to the mix plus a new doosan, Black Friday and upcoming Xmas, they’re busy and not going anywhere. ( in a good way!). Suffice to say from me, faith restored in Axiom. I told him most of the forum pundits had their back and are supportive. I’d say for those waiting , be patient, enjoy the great products they make and be assured that Axiom is on the up and up.

Change takes time and courage and it sounds like they are going for it while remaining close to their ethic of making great products in Canada.

End of fanboy rant.

On Every Street, sounding great!

I agree with you otherwise it would be a very easy decision upcoming with my comparison!!Either the axioms best the paradigm's or not.....however I do like the way Axiom has treated myself & people I have recommended to them to over the years.So while it does come down to SQ as primary factor history with Axiom is going to play a role in my choice.....later today will have both brands here to begin my tests will report back early next week!!

Looking forward to your comparison. My dad had given me a set of older paradigm speakers but they didn't compare to the m100s. The imaging and soundstage was vastly improved with the Axioms. However, you will be comparing two current models so I'm definitely curious to see how that pans out.

The question is, will Bruce be comparing imaging and soundstage?

Also very interested to hear your impressions SGuy. I’ve long held Paradigm up as a great value and good sound quality. I’ve never heard their top line though.

And Canes like you, my dad had Paradigm over the years and I agree, compared to my m60ti his monitors do not compare at all.

I have no doubt that Paradigm makes good speakers so this will be a great comparison StereoG.

The Paradigms under comparison are not top of line. They may actually be better-sounding than top of line though.

Oh yeah I know. The 800f is a fairly apples to apples build type and price comparison. I’m just saying in general I’ve never heard top of the line Paradigms. But as you suggest, higher price doesn’t necessarily mean higher sonic prowess or better in general. Just higher price.

I have skin in game from Stereoguy99's comparison because, deep down, I'm a researcher. I research things obsessively, find that many of the ideas floating around are BS, and make it a mission to debunk them and find a better solution. My book on social class was such a project. It didn't make me rich, but gave me glorious purpose for 12 years. And it effectively inoculated me from luxury marketing for life.

I like to think I've figured out finding value in audio, and it's not too far off from "it's the loudspeaker, stupid". Amps, DAC's, interconnects, power conditioners and expensive = better are red herrings to the ultimate goal of good sound.

Everything I've gleaned tells me that Axiom will consistently win over the Paradigm over a large sample size of tracks...but even i want to know if that's true or not. We only have measurements from Axiom, and those measurements could have been cooked for all we know. Empirical evidence, even if it's N=1, is the final judge.

The measurements aren't cooked. The curves sure are!

In the 80s & 90s I learned how to evaluate audio equipment (I'm speaking by listening rather than measurement). Always trying to evaluate and compare by sonic memory (which IMO is doable only on the grossest level). If it sounded close to my sonic memory of what ever my reference was (mid 90’s that was the B&W 802 “matrix”) for a fraction of the price then it was time to pull the trigger.

My thinking was that I was not going to be comparing these things side by side … so if it put the equivalent smile on my face at a fraction of the cost … that was the speaker for me!

The display of the curves are … heavily smoothed and zoomed out so you can not see any detail… like most manufacturers who display curves.

I was not referring to smoothing. The curves, particularly the sound power, is cooked based on a recipe Axiom invented.

Need more Details

Sung to the tune of "We three kings from orient are"

We six curves of Axiom are

We six curves of Axiom are
30 years old we've come so far
every one eighteenth pi rad, an anechoic curve we add
of spinorama data not scalar.

Refrain:

O curves of tone and SPL
curves with similar shape and flare
gentle slope, low Q nope
perfect sound these curves foretell.

Direct sound real flat without any gain
"Axial Response" that is my name
simple content, most important
over all curves I reign.

Repeat refrain

A "Listening Window" nine curves mean am I
0 to +/-30 degrees across, 10 degrees down, 10 degrees high
within a dB, these curves must be
for listeneners to joyously sigh.

Repeat refrain

Image width, stability, timbre to tame
+/-40, 60, 80 across and 50 down and high's the game
most that we hear, bounce from quite near
"Early Reflections" is my aim.

Repeat refrain

A speaker's signature doth we take now
weighted mean of 70 curves is how
downward tilting, no broad wilting
"Sound Power" curve art thou.

Repeat refrain

The "DI" curve is the cash cow
the "Listening Window" from "Sound Power" take away now
closer to zero, it's a hero
listeners will procalaim a big "Wow!"

Repeat refrain

One last curve is for finesse
"Early Reflections" from "Sound Power" we minus
lateral prophylaxis, from far-off axis
"Early Reflections DI" shows polar bias.

Repeat refrain

Low DI with curves smooth and similar
disperse the sound as not to be insular
audio pornography, via sonic holography
sharp images spaced out renders them singular.

Repeat refrain

Axiom's direct radiators sound great when they're played
sound power declining 3dB per decade
if that DI, is a bit high
zero DI ALFRs can be yours via trade.

For those waiting with bated breath here is a early tease set up speakers side by side...no Room correction used or will be used for the first few days....as I thought speakers are neck & neck early on very hard to tell which stay they both sound more balanced(highs & bass response) then the Revels did.....one factor having nothing to due with sound is the height of the VP-160 is a factor with my new TV stand as the VP-160 is level to my wall mounted 65" OLED(in other words sitting at my MLP & else where in the room the lower bezel of TV is at same level as VP-160). For now focusing only on sound quality but could swing the choice can not move TV at all due to room layout.So there is a quick update more to come soon....say Mon/Tue!!!!

Floyd Toole skewers the B&W Matrix 802N as a deeply flawed loudspeaker in his book. I remember being extremely impressed with the Thiel CS 3.6 back in the mid-90's, and Sean Olive mentioning that loudspeaker as normcore average. My favorite demo was a KEF Model 4 with its bottomless bass, something I routinely achieve with a sub from the same era.

It almost feels like a downer that my current and secondary 2022 setups are more neutral and likely outperform my 90's heroes.

The talk about the 802N reminded me of this post which includes loads of input from Olive & Toole:

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/b-...-respond-floyd-toole-sean-olive.2914582/

That maybe … but I didn’t know about Toole till Late 90’s maybe 2000? … but that said there was something I liked about it …

Also, around that time, I heard a pair of Martin Logan electrostatics in which a triangle hung mid air suspended outside the boundary of the right speaker … clear, clean, and if I closed my eyes I would swear that someone was standing there playing it … it was obvious I needed to up my game … I was missing 2/3s of what I should have been listening ….

Just got a email they ship soon. cant wait been 4 years or so with only two channel

It'll be so much sweeter now.

I laughed when I saw the comment that they had no audiophile friends. I have friends with home theater setups, but none I would consider dyed-in-the-wool audiophiles.

It's almost a blessing to be satisfied with sound bar sound and not be lead down the dark side of pseudoscience that pervades the hobby.

No one's an audiophile...until an audiophile stirs up their room and they hear stereo for the first time.

It’s true. The disappearing act of sonic holography is the ultimate. And I suspect I’ve only just experienced the neophyte version of this. But it is incredible and addictive.

The holography you hear in the M2 and M3 is similar to other v4. I don't know about your M60ti. When I heard it, it wasn't set up for great imaging or soundstage.

As you move up, bass and SPL performance improves, images get larger, more distinct, with more space between them and soundstage expands.

In my new larger space here and with the new amplification and pre amp versus the Yammie nin the old space the m60 disappear easily but it is very specifc lcoation I must sit 2 seats only. Whereas the V4 m2 and m3 are much easier to disappear and much wider MLP that is available. Also the v4 provide a depth that the ti can not achieve or it's the fact that the "images" are cleaner and more concise with more "space " arond them.

"As you move up, bass and SPL performance improves, images get larger, more distinct, with more space between them and soundstage expands."
Agreed, I view the volume knob as a focus knob, bringing things into focus by adjusting the apeture. Thumbs up!

Very interesting. My ALFRs disappear no matter where one sits. Maybe the other v4 Axioms do too- I've never listened for that. But it's only at the MLP that the soundstage, imaging and fidelity are perfectly aligned into a holygraphic trinity.

I never thought of the volume knob in that way.

Mojo nope not going to be here until after Christmas ;( be three months almost then

Damn. More proof the world is goin' to Hell!