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Posted By: alan Editor's Forum: Planar speakers, dipoles & more - 02/24/04 09:26 PM
A post from BigFoot_Lives in the Advice from Axiom Owners forum got me thinking about planar speakers, dipoles and bipoles.

"Planar" refers to any speaker that uses a flat diaphragm instead of a cone or dome as the radiating element. In conventional, non-planar speakers like Axioms, a rigid but lightweight cone (for midrange and low bass tones) and a dome (for higher frequencies) move rapidly back and forth to generate the sound pressure waves that strike our eardrums. The back waves from a cone woofer are either absorbed inside a sealed box (acoustic suspension) or funneled out a hole or port in the enclosure (bass reflex) to reinforce and smooth the deep bass response of the speaker system. (The back waves from tweeters and smaller cone drivers are usually absorbed in the speaker enclosure and do not contribute to the speaker's overall output. In the case of the Axiom M60ti and M80ti tower speakers, the tweeters are sealed so that no internal cabinet waves can affect them. The small woofers in the M60 and M80 are mounted in their own internal enclosures so as not to be affected by the bass drivers' internal cabinet waves.)

By contrast, a planar speaker uses a large, flat film diaphragm (often a mylar or plastic composite) stretched tight in a frame and usually suspended between two mesh grids that are electrically charged. As the audio signal is applied, electrostatic attraction and repulsion alternately move the flat film back and forth, generating sound waves that radiate to the front and the rear of the speaker.

Planar-magnetic speakers use a flat diaphragm as well, often a foil ribbon suspended between permanent magnets, or some variation of this principle. The audio signal is applied to the ribbon, and the positive or negative magnetic forces move the ribbon back and forth. These planar speakers are almost always dipoles, because the pressure waves radiated from the back of the film diaphragm are out of phase with those coming from the front of the panel. This becomes problematic with bass frequencies below 100 Hz, because the deep bass waves, being non-directional, migrate around the panel and cancel out those from the front. The liability of these dipole planar speakers is that no deep bass is possible unless a subwoofer or auxiliary conventional woofer is used. Moreover, because the range of movement of a flat film diaphragm is more restricted than the excursion of a cone driver, the maximum peak sound levels are usually somewhat limited. If pushed too far, the flat film or ribbon may be damaged.

The virtue of dipoles is that with careful placement and a single known listening position, the midrange and treble sounds from the rear of the speaker will be reflected from the back wall and adjacent room boundaries to supply an enhanced sense of spaciousness to the soundstage.

Conversely, some of these midrange and high-frequency sounds may cancel or interact in a manner that typically make imaging somewhat vague and indistinct.
Nevertheless, a well-designed planar speaker--electrostatic or planar-magnetic--may produce very smooth and neutral midrange and high-frequency response. I say "may" because there are plenty of good and bad examples of each type, just as there are with forward radiating cone-and-dome systems.

Don't confuse dipole speakers with bipoles. A bipolar speaker radiates sound in several directions--typically towards the front and the rear (or in other directions as well), but here the outgoing pressure waves at the front and the rear are in phase, so bass cancellation is avoided. Like dipoles, a bipolar speaker can produce greatly enhanced spaciousness for stereo listening, but again the downside is a lack of distinct and precise imaging. The latter liability makes them unsuitable for use as front speakers in a home theater system. On the other hand, bipolar speakers like the Axiom QS8s (which are really multipolar in nature) used in a surround-sound application can be extremely effective in producing a diffuse and enveloping sense of immersion in the surround sound field. Even dipoles, properly set up as surrounds (and that can be quite a challenge) are also capable of yielding a diffuse and enveloping ambience.

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These planar speakers are almost always dipoles, because the pressure waves radiated from the back of the film diaphragm are out of phase with those coming from the front of the panel. This becomes problematic with bass frequencies below 100 Hz, because the deep bass waves, being non-directional, migrate around the panel and cancel out those from the front. The liability of these dipole planar speakers is that no deep bass is possible unless a subwoofer or auxiliary conventional woofer is used.




This is true. I have noticed with 3 Magnepan models from the 1.6QR and lower that it would benefit having a subwoofer when listening to 2 channel audio. There is also a bump in the 60-80hz range which almost seems like there is a lot more bass but dwindles fairly quickly from the 60hz and lower.
One can treat planer speakers like a standard monitor where it is necessary to pair it with a subwoofer to get the full frequency range. If it is acceptable to have a monitor like the M22 to be paired with a good sub then I would presume it is no different to pair planer speakers with a good sub. Would I dare say the M22 is lacking because it can not produce lower frequencies?

I am no expert and please correct any of my assumptions if invalid. Planer speakers emit a nice clean tight bass since there is no break in the frequency spectrum. On normal box speakers the woofers play as certain range as do the midrange driver and the tweeter. Careful adjustments have to made to crossover and overlap (but not too much) to get a nice clean flat frquency spectrum. Axiom's are king on this as many people gospel about.

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because the pressure waves radiated from the back of the film diaphragm are out of phase with those coming from the front of the panel.




Although out of phase from the back...by the time it deflects of your back wall and other things it will cancel out/absorbed out of phase signal or will be in-phase by the time it reaches your ear. Someone correct me if I am wrong with this assumption.

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the maximum peak sound levels are usually somewhat limited. If pushed too far, the flat film or ribbon may be damaged




That is true ...that is why planer speakers are built with the fuse that breaks if those levels are achieved. I have had my planers at really really high level ... 80% on my volume level pushed by a Bryston 4B at 600watts at 4ohms. Mind you of course we are peaking at lower levels than 600w and only for a spilt second or so but I have seen my 4B red circuit protection hit 3 times.

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Conversely, some of these midrange and high-frequency sounds may cancel or interact in a manner that typically make imaging somewhat vague and indistinct.




That is true. But proper placement and tweaks can be done. I find by having objects or sound absorbers such as having a bookshelf with books and stuff behind the radiating area of the planer speaker would absorb some of this out-of phase sound wave. What you get is more pinpoint imaging. A lot more focus without losing the expansive sounstage. (Hey Mike how are those sleeping bags behind your Maggies working out.

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Conversely, some of these midrange and high-frequency sounds may cancel or interact in a manner that typically make imaging somewhat vague and indistinct




The midrange of the planer speakers are amazing. Placement is key and certain things need to be done to achieve a sound that is focused, detailed and expansive at the same time.

I enjoy the sound planer speakers present. It is the closest simulation of any speaker that I personally have heard being in a auditorium listening to Frederick Fennel and the Dallas Wind Symphony Orchestra.

As with varied different opinions, some do not like the sound of planers or electrostats. (My dad...he is Proac this and Proac that..blah blah blah)


Saturn

ps: if you have a chance give Magnepan a listen. You'll either like it or not. When our fearless leader was up and about (He seemed to have disappeared for some reason) he would give high praise to the sound quality a planer speaker would present.
Well said Saturn. BTW, I'm no longer using the " dimpled foam sleeping bag "sound diffusers" that you refered to (yes, my wife is very tolerent of my little obsesion, bless her heart).

I've learned that with a bit more judicious placement, it sounds just as good without them and really even much better. I've moved the speakers further apart and closer to the corners of the room and nearer to the side walls (where the side wall, back wall and the entertainment center form a sort of alcove). The result is that the upper bass is slightly more emphasized yet still tight and clean and the speakers now utterly dissapear into an even wider and deeper (didn't think it was possible) sound stage with pin point imaging. Sound stage dimensions with these things still amaze me even after a year with them (especially after moving them further apart). But I didn't know what I was missing until I took a bit more of a radical approach to placement.

I had a preconcieved notion (that I picked up from internet audio "experts") that the speakers needed a lot of distance from the side/back walls to perform thier best. Just goes to show that even the so called "experts" aren't right all the time. Once someone has a good system put together, the key to getting maximum performance is experimentation with speaker placement and room treatments no matter which driver design your speakers use.

P.S: Saturn, I still treasure the "Silver Surfers". Thanks again!

P.S.S: A personal message to all: Even real audio "experts" have biases. Listen for yourselves.

P.S.S.S: IMO, most Maggieheads don't buy them expecting bottom octave bass.
Saturn,

I love the Magnepan sound, but I can't resist correcting you here:

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Although out of phase from the back...by the time it deflects of your back wall and other things it will cancel out/absorbed out of phase signal or will be in-phase by the time it reaches your ear. Someone correct me if I am wrong with this assumption.


This is entirely dependent upon the distance from the back wall and the frequency of the sound. For example, in order for the sound emanating from both the front and the back of the speaker to arrive at your ear in-phase, the distance of the speaker from the back wall needs to be 1/4 of the wavelength of the sound. (To find the wavelength of a tone, divide 1130 by the Hz value of the tone. The result is distance in feet.)

Because the speaker must reproduce a wide range of sounds (on average from say 40 Hz to 20 kHz), you cannot place it at an ideal distance for all frequencies. Every distance that exactly reinforces a particular Hz value will exactly cancel out a value with half the wavelength (i.e. double the hertz).
Alan, could you please settle something for me?

I'd understood that the QS series had the tweeters wired out of phase, but the woofers wired in phase. All of your recent posts (and Newsletter articles) state the tweeters are also wired as bipoles.

Are the tweeters wired as bipolar or dipolar, and is this something which has changed since the switch to the SE designation (along with, for example, the TWWWT array on the VP150)?
Hi Alen,

Thanks for the great post outlining the virtues and problems associated with planar speakers. Comparing and contrasting traditional speaker design with planars is very usefull and I appreciate the details offered. In the end I realized that the planar speakers in my price range would just not offer the full range that I was looking for. I ended up getting the M60Ti speakers and could not be happier.

Keep up the great technical discussions. I really like that Axiom shares their expertise for all to read and debate. It makes me feel confident that my purchase is going toward a top notch company that cares about speaker design and not to pay a huge marketing department peddling inferior speakers.

- BigFoot_Lives
Excellent. I didn't know you could actually calculate that. I'm impressed.



Have you ever listened to planers or electrostats?
Ever found a planar or electrostat that compared to M60s for $800? I doubt it.

Mind you, I love Magnepans, but they just aren't price comparable to Axioms.

And dude, you need to lose that chip on your shoulder about this. I understand where you're coming from, but....
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Ever found a planar or electrostat that compared to M60s for $800? I doubt it.




No. The M60 are excellent for its price. The Magnepan MMG is only $550. The M60 does perform much more spectacularly. The MG12 is can be had for $1050. I personally prefer the MG12 over the M60.

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but they just aren't price comparable to Axioms



So...you don't all see all of us buy Cambridge Soundworks because it is the best sound for the price

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And dude, you need to lose that chip on your shoulder about this. I understand where you're coming from, but....




I am just strongly opinionated...as the rest of the people on here with their Axioms. I don't just preach the same dogma.

Maybe Sushi got it right. Its time to do the same.



Yes, but CSW is not the best sound for the price. Axiom has much better sound for the price. Unfortuantely, I didn't know this when I bought my CSW crap.

Having not heard the M60s vs the MG12s, I can't really compare. However, it is nice to know that the MG12s can be had so inexpensively (relatively speaking). Impressive stuff. I also know that the Maggie MMGWM (or whatever it is) can be had for $300/pair.
One thing that can be said for planar speakers is that they're exotic... like being the only guy on your all-dog block with a ferret or having an African-American girlfriend in Vermont.

This isn't another planar-bashing message. I'm not personally a big fan of them for my own needs - they're too expensive and require much more attention to detail in placement. I understand those that like their clean mids and highs and the unique styling of ribbons/planars/whathaveyou, but for me, I don't want to have to style a room around a set of speakers (well, unless they start making the mortgage payments).

And Saturn, you have to know that coming into a forum full of owners of traditional speakers that you'll be odd-man out, not everyone that doesn't own a pair of M-Ls or Maggies is secretly waiting for the day they can buy a pair. It's like me walking into a room full of Canadian Alliance members and saying "so... how about that health care?"

Bren R.
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This isn't another planar-bashing message




Don't get me wrong I did not think this thread was about that. I just had my thoughts on the subject and said my views.

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And Saturn, you have to know that coming into a forum full of owners of traditional speakers that you'll be odd-man out, not everyone that doesn't own a pair of M-Ls or Maggies is secretly waiting for the day they can buy a pair. It's like me walking into a room full of Canadian Alliance members and saying "so... how about that health care?"




I don't think I am the odd one out. I do own QS8 and a VP150 and by far I have tested tonnes...over the last 5 years and I still came back to the Axioms. And cost was not much an issue as long as surrounds or the center channel was less than $1500 each. I actually prefered the VP150 over the Maggies center. The VP150 had more punch. I also used to own M22Ti and also M3Ti (for many months) so I do know the Axiom sound and charateristic.

And I have owned or had for many weeks in my living room numerous box speakers..in the ballpark of 12 models in the last 14 years...from different B&W models,different Proac models, Heybrook, Monitor Audio, Acoustic Research, different PMC models...etc
Do I believe that planer/electrostat speakers are the end of all speaker?...definitely not. But I am as passionate about my current planer speakers as you guys are with your Axioms.

People go on here to gather information. I see lots of "I CAN'T BELIEVE I DIDN'T BUY INTO THIS MANY YEARS AGO..."
There is lots of those type of information.
I like looking for "Well I have moved on and tried this other brand out and the reason I why I moved on is because of ..... "
This gives you a balance to see whats on the other side of the picture so that when time comes to lay down that hard earned cash you definitely know what your getting into without surprises.


Saturn
BrenR,

Enjoyed your amusing references to the ferret and the Canadian Alliance. Wasn't there a hilarious scene involving a ferret in either the book or the movie of "Bright Lights, Big City" ?

I really wasn't planar-bashing--over the years, I've been as susceptible to the lure of exotic speaker designs as anyone. Just wanted to point out their strengths and weaknesses. Certainly some planar speakers are capable of superb, uncolored midrange. I've heard Magnaplanars that are very good and several that were awful, and some electrostatics that also fall into both categories.

But dipoles require so much finicky postitioning, and even then they have an odd "phasey" character that seems to shift every time you move your head an inch or two. That was especially true of a pair of Martin-Logan Aerius speakers that a friend had and I've heard that a lot from electrostatics.

Regards,
I think its great to have members of the forum with broad experience with all kinds of equipment. If only exclusively Axiom owners participated the forum would loose a lot of its value. Being aware of the competition and its advances helps keep Ian having fun developing new speakers, and all of us benefiting from advancing technology.
That's rather humourous Bren.
Blunt, political and yet humourous without being overly distasteful.
Perhaps you are in the wrong profession.

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And I have owned or had for many weeks in my living room numerous box speakers..in the ballpark of 12 models in the last 14 years.



Does this mean you are searching for perfection Saturn?
Or is it that you just like to have all sorts of speakers just for fun and can never really settle on one sound for long?
I've got a bit of that itch myself. I have 2 main pairs of speakers of different brands and am already looking at a 3rd brand for some other system if i ever have another room in which to build another system.
Once upon a time, I was the boards "audiophile snob", and took a lot of heat for suggesting that there was significant value in experiencing other brands. While I realize that this is/was sponsored by Axiom, the old thought of " the devil and the priest can't exist if one goes away" (anyone care to place that lyric??) is true.

I strayed away from the board because anyone who seemingly had an opinion that was not dead on Axiom was villified. I have spent decades ENJOYING the hobby of audio, and purchased pieces that I deemed worthy of my money.

Do I own Axiom? Yes
Do I own other speakers? Yes
Do I enjoy them equally? Yes, but in different contexts.
Are there flaws in the Axioms, Missions, and Referenc 3a Supremas? Yes, each has a strenght and weakness.

My point is this - people ask for advice and lean on veteran experiences to help them learn, and begin the journey into audio. Simply stating that Axiom is amazing is wonderful if you feel that way. But a reference point is also helpful. If there is no way to objectively put forth an opinion, what value does this board hold for those seeking advice?

In this thread, I can clearly identify with Saturns comments. Are there better speakers out there than those mentioned? Sure, but that again is a comment by one user. In trying to put forth an opinion based on experience, we all risk being biased. I fondly remember, as Alan stated, good and bad in all technologies pertaining to speakers.
so you write comedy too?
Alan, Saturn, BBIBH - just thought this thread needed a bit of levity - for the most part I won't read forums, it's not often you get a good discussion about topics, the Axiom forums are different. There's a very open exchange here, which is a necessity for a company that sells most of their product sound unheard - who would have thought anyone would buy a speaker without listening to it? But here we all are.

Anyone for a chorus of Kumbaya?

Bren R.
Alan: My sincere apology if I have come across brash with my comments. I do not intend to offend. I value all your input in all matters of audio and video...and taxes. I just wanted to speak my observations.

BBIBH: Thank you. I sadden to see people who have valuable opinions and stray away because they get chastised for their own opinion.

Chess: No I do not search for perfection. I do get an itch ever so often. I enjoy trying out new stuff. It must be in the field I am in. Not just in audio and video. My friends wait till end of season and knock on my door to get my old snowboard, mountain bike, cell phone, digital camera, computer monitor at more than half off. I even just sold my X1 projector...thinking of picking up the Optoma H30 in a couple of weeks after I move into my new place in 2 weeks. Bad habit.

BrenR:We need more people like you on here.

Saturn
ps:for those I am hosting pics for..the site will be down for about a month. Sorry...have to move.

quote from Saturn:
Have you ever listened to planers or electrostats?


Saturn,

Yes I auditioned a pair of Martin Logans. They sounded great but cost over $2,000. The price was too much but it did prompt me to seek out more information. Found the Magnapan website and really considered trying them out. In the end, I did not as they are power hungery, finicky about placement, and not even full range speakers. I am sure they sound exceptional, I was just unwilling go beyond the research phase.

- BigFoot_Lives
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I strayed away from the board because anyone who seemingly had an opinion that was not dead on Axiom was villified



That's interesting BB b/c i've posted a couple of times on the forums now about auditioning other speakers and certainly Axioms have not always come out on top...if there is such a thing as being on the top. I do not recall anyone bashing my opinions presented.
There is never much of an argument that Axioms are fantastic for the price but many yearn for the bells and whistles like wood veneers or 100lb weighted beasts, 46" towers, etc.
You just cannot find that at Axiom. They don't make them.
However, coming to a forum hosted by a company should provide the expectation of bias on speaker opinions, especially when a newbie posts for the first time, learning material for the first time.
There is no doubt that many 'veterans' new to the boards have posted their ideas on speakers they own/have owned in the past. I certainly do not feel the Axiom forum provides a regular, negative response to such posts.
Maybe Saturn just attracts too much attention eliciting feverish jealousy over his constant sales and acquisitions of new and wonderful equipment.

Stir the pot Saturn, keep stirrrrring the pot (jus kiddin)
If i recall correctly, wasn't it Peter who was pot stirring not long ago?

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Anyone for a chorus of Kumbaya?



Between you and Ray this morning, i'm just dying over here, just dyin i tells ya.


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Between you and Ray this morning, i'm just dying over here, just dyin i tells ya.



It's the Manitoba Melt... getting a smile on everyone's face.

Bren R.
That Manitoba Melt is only showing just how much in the way of dog remnants i have to clean out of the back yard.
You think kids are bad?
Try owning a 130lb dog.
Never in my life have i seen an animal dispose of so much solid waste in one day.
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You think kids are bad? Try owning a 130lb dog. Never in my life have i seen an animal dispose of so much solid waste in one day.



Put on a pair of hip waders and run it over with the lawnmower. I've got a turtle, haven't tried it in the new place - but my old house, wherever on the lawn I put the tank water when I changed it out became luscious and green... all that nitrogen and solid waste!

Just don't feed your dog Tuffy's (dunno if they even still make the stuff) a biker buddy figured with all the food eaten by his shepherd/mastiff/rotweiler/poodle/grizzly/whatever cross that it would save some money. At $5 for a 50 lb bag, apparently it stayed in him about as long as the recycled newspaper and "brown" it was made out of.

BTW, you coming out to the arena on 6 March to see some NHL Jets legends back in the city?

Bren R.
We have an arena?
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Put on a pair of hip waders and run it over with the lawnmower.



Unfortunately the snow keeps getting in the way.

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I've got a turtle



You know, somehow, i just can't picture it.
Bren, and a turtle...

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a biker buddy figured with all the food eaten by his shepherd/mastiff/rotweiler/poodle/grizzly/whatever cross that it would save some money



A) Not to offend anyone's decisions on what they feed their pets but that's cruel. Would you want to eat paper bags for the rest of your life just to save money?

B) Our "big giant head" goes through $80 a month in food, 40lb bag each 3-4 weeks. Her antibiotics cost $65 per WEEK. Kids be damned. This dog cost is a kid equal and then some, and i've got one of those coming soon too. I'm going to need a new job.
You'll know your expenses are mounting when you look at your Tannoys and they morph into stacks of diapers in your mind...
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Maybe Saturn just attracts too much attention eliciting feverish jealousy over his constant sales and acquisitions of new and wonderful equipment.

Stir the pot Saturn, keep stirrrrring the pot (jus kiddin)




Okey I'll be assimilated.

Axioms are the best. Don't bother with anything else.

Resistance is futile.


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Axioms are the best. Don't bother with anything else.



That's a good start, now can we get one of those cult tax breaks, I wonder?

Bren R.
That's why we bought the Tannoys last fall when we knew we could still afford them.
Now of course we are taking a second look at all purchases.
Buy them while they were hot is what i said.
It worked.
You go Saturn, you go!!


(Remember i'm working on brand #3 for our household!!)
Any hints?

Sorny? Magnetbox? Panaphonics?

Ahh, Simpsons quotes...

Bren...
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