I'm kind of a newbie but let's see if I can explain my problem. Bought a new pair of M60's 16 months ago to hook up to a new Rotel 1050 amp. Well I'm playing some tunes pretty loud for awhile when the amp cuts out. Start over again, same thing happens. I call a buddy over to look at things and he discovers that the tweeter in one speaker is not working. My tin ears couldn't tell until he pointed it out.
Speaker goes back, new one comes in, everything's fine. Fast forward up to about 2 months ago. Out of the blue my amp shuts down again. Well the first thing I check is the tweeters and sure enough one tweeter has died. Pull the tweeter out, ship it back, install the new one, everything is fine. Well, not too long afterwards I'm cranking the tunes and the amp cuts out again! I listen to the new tweeter and there is sound coming from it so maybe it was just something else. Anyway, I was just now playing music again and the amp just cut out so there is something definitely not right here. When I compare the sound coming from each tweeter it really seems like the sound coming from this new tweeter is subdued. Is this possible? The tweeter isn't dead it just doesn't seem anywhere near as bright as the other one.
Am I doing something wrong here or is this my normal miserable luck? I've done a search on here for tweeters and have found nothing resembling my trouble. The only thing that's different from the two speakers is that the one I'm having trouble with is roughly 14 inches away from a 32" CRT TV.
Anyone have any suggestions? Do I ship this tweeter back again?
Thanks.
Me, I'd be looking at sending back that Rotel. Geez... have you checked your speaker wires to make sure there's not a stray strand or something like that?
You might want to read the amplifier thread here. There is a pretty good discussion on overdriving tweeters and some excellent technical links. It could be that you are just blowing the tweeters.
Just a thought or two.
The Rat.
NSC, welcome. First, the odds that you got three defective tweeters in a row are so low as to be negligible. The M60s are rather easy to drive and a 1050 in good condition should drive them to unbearably loud levels and still have power to spare. My thought would be that the one channel of the 1050 involved with the two blown and one damaged(?) tweeter may be defective and not putting out the full power that the other channel is, possibly resulting in clipping which damaged the tweeters. Have the 1050 checked.
Perhaps a hairline heat fissure in a trace on the PCB or a stray bit of solder that's doing it.
Though Axiom have gone far and beyond the call of duty by sending out new drivers each time - bouquet to them!
Bren R.
I forget where I read it but there were a few stories of amps which went into some kind of ultrasonic oscillation when the thermal protection circuitry was "almost" triggered, resulting in some tweeter-frying excitement.
I can't find a link or anything though...
I guess the other question is whether the amp should be going into thermal shutdown under the conditions you are operating it under. Does it seem to be getting pretty warm before it cuts out ?
As others have said it is extremely unlikely that you are getting a run of bad tweeters. More than extremely, in fact
Hey, thanks for the quick replies. I should add that my sub is hooked inline (proper term?) with my speakers. Speaker wires run from the amp to the sub and out to the speakers. Sub is a HSU VTF-something... can't remember the number off-hand. I also should add that my speaker wire is just the basic stuff. I thought quality of speaker wire was just a sound issue and I would never hear the difference so that's why I bought the basic wire. If I thought there was a possibility that cheap wire would cause equipment damage I would have certainly ponied up the extra $'s.
Yes, the amp gets super hot before it cuts out. Regardless, I'm hoping it's not the amp because I'm not sure where I could get it checked out. Don't know if this additional info helps out...
With all those speaker wire connections, I would double and triple check for some stray strands of speaker wire and correct connections.
As far as getting your amp checked, I would call Rotel and see what/where to get it checked.
I drive my M60s to VERY HIGH volumes at times and have had ZERO troubles with my speakers or amp (Denon 2805).
I posted a similar problem with a friends Paradigms on some other boards and we've narrowed it down to his amp.
Good Luck.
plus Axiom has second to none customer service, but there is a point where I would think they would say enough is enough.
In reply to:
Yes, the amp gets super hot before it cuts out.
I think that's your indicator right there.
canuck
i read a lot more on here than i reply being that my knowlendge of sound and electricity is limited to first hand experience and what i read on the forums. however i did have a tweeter problem with the m60's, i ran all sorts of test to make sure it was not anything else but the actual tweeter. such as switching speaker wire, to switching the speakers themselves to playing different test disk, even trying the speakers in different locations. i even went as far to remove the binding post (i think that is the correct term) to just hear the mid-range and tweeter playing by themselves. and after all that it did end up being a faulty tweeter but there was a new one at my front door within 3 days. and no problems since. if you have done everything to eliminate the speaker itself, then i would be on the horn with rotel. odds of burning through 3 axiom tweeters is unheard of. i have pushed my m60's beyond recommendation and they still sound just as beautiful as the day i got my new tweeter. just trying to add my 2 cents here and there....
In reply to:
the binding post (i think that is the correct term)
The binding posts are the nut-looking things that you attach your speaker wire/banana plugs to. You mean the straps between the binding posts.
Bren R.
Ok here's my plan. I'm going to replace all my speaker wire. I mean if there is something wrong with the wire maybe it's a defect somewhere other than a connection. Second I'll phone Axiom and explain my troubles. I don't mind paying for a new tweeter when this is the amp's fault or wire defect or my fault.
I really don't want to be without any sounds for long. I dread taking that amp somewhere. Maybe I'm being stupid by not biting the bullet and getting the amp checked out. I'll look into calling Rotel.
Ok let 'er rip guys, do I have more money than brains for replacing the wire, buying a new tweeter, and praying that solves the problem?
Thanks again.
i knew someone out there knew what i was talking about, thanks for the correction....keep on at it canuck, you will get it solved
Thanks frenche. My heart really sank last night when that amp cut out again and now the tweeter sounds different. This is the first nice stereo system I've had in my life and the sound is amazing but when troubles start brewing I'm not surprised when it's me.
switch speakers, then you'll know if it's the amp or not. Could be an internal short between the binding post and tweater conection. Mistakes happen.
What are you using for a preamp ? At what level on the dial are you playing at when this happens ? It could be that you are simply over driving the amp
No preamp. 81 or 82 out of 90 on the volume dial.
Then you are using a receiver.That to me seems pretty high,has it ever happened when playing at a lower level.The only time I had a tweeter go bad on me ( around 20 years ago ) was when I played a low powered receiver into clipping.
In reply to:
81 or 82 out of 90 on the volume dial.
That's extremely high. How large is your room? Have you measured the db's you're playing at?
From everything you've stated so far is seems 99.9% that the issue is your receiver. Not the wire. Not the speakers.
Good luck, and keep us up to date with the outcome.
nscanuck,
maybe i wasn't paying attention, but it seems like you are always having trouble with only one speaker correct? If that is the case, have you tried switching the speaker hookups so that each speaker is hooked into the other channel on the amp (it is a 2 channel amp correct?)? That should immediately tell you whether it is the speaker or the amp causing you problems. Of course I may have missed an explanation as to why this won't work, in which case, you may ignore my rambling...
(from what i see so far it seems to point 100% to the amp being the faulty link)
Super hot is not normal. That is what you would get with HF oscillation. As to what causes it, I don't know.
You definitely need to borrow another receiver and see what happens. I'm pretty sure there is something wrong with your receiver.
If you have an ohmmeter you don't need to buy new wire, just disconnect everything, check the ends for loose strands, then measure between the wires and you should see an open circuit (ie the opposite of touching the probes together).
Is your balance control centered or did you have to play with the balance control to get both sides playing at the same level ?
In the short term, don't play so loud
I see your amp has clipping indicators,have you ever seen these light up right before the amp shuts down ?
This has never happened at a lower volume level. Room size is 25x15x8. No clue on db's.
I'm not sure what speaker it was originally. The whole speaker went back so I received a new one but yes the last two times it was the same speaker. I have no balance control on the receiver but I was just switching the jacks around to isolate the two speakers since there is an A/B hookup for two pairs of speakers. To me it sounds like i have damaged the tweeter in that same speaker again.
I haven't noticed a clipping indicator on my receiver. I'll dig out my manual.
I don't see anything on a clipping indicator in the manual. I think I'm going to have to call Rotel and then buy a new tweeter. Crap.
In reply to:
I haven't noticed a clipping indicator on my receiver. I'll dig out my manual.
I was talking about the Rotel 1050.It has clipping indicators on the front panel.IMO that's a pretty big room for the 1050 when playing music that high.
You're going to have to explain this to a dummie. How would room size affect the receiver at a loud volume?
I do believe you are just running the amp at to high of a level to acheive the dbs you are looking for.This I think is the source of your troubles.Either do not play your music so loud that you tax the amp or go for a much larger amp.
If you play the same amp and speakers at the same volume control setting in a small or large room it will seem a lot louder in the small room (particularly since you tend to sit close in a small room).
Alternatively, if you move the system from a small room to a large room you will have to crank the volume up to get the same perceived loudness. If your amp isn't powerful enough to play well at the higher volume and the amp starts "clipping" you can end up with a lot more high frequency energy than normal which can blow the tweeter.
Music normally has much more energy in the low frequencies than in the high frequencies, so you can have a dainty light tweeter and still run a lot of power through the speaker as long as the frequency distribution is "music like". If you start clipping, or play pure high frequency tones, you can easily end up putting much more power through the tweeter than it was designed for.
In other words, it's not the big room that affects the receiver it's the fact that you have to crank the volume higher in a big room to get the same volume.
Big rooms need big (more efficient) speakers or big amps or both.
I can't thank you guys enough for this help. I appreciate it.
I'm pretty sure I can hook up a pre amp to this receiver. Will a pre amp boost power? Can i daisy chain another amp into this receiver?
No, a preamp is NOT what you need.
I sense your reluctance to sending your receiver to a repair shop for a good checkup. But, that may be exactly what you need to do.
It wouldn't hurt to check your cables and connections again. Maybe have a friend check them. Sometimes a second set of eyes will see things a little different.
I agree with the other posts that it does seem extremely odd that you have received so many "bad" tweeters. No, in all probability, something other than the tweeters is causing your problem.
I think that you know what has to be done, but, my friend, you just don't like it.
The Rat.
In one sentence he says an amp in another he is saying receiver.I think I'm now confused,though that's not so hard to do
From the manual: "The RX-1050 provides a pair of variable-level RCA preamp audio outputs and a pair of RCA amplifier inputs that allow you to use external amplifiers in place of, or in addition to, the built-in amplifiers."
Is that my ticket to more power? If so how much should I add? The 1050 is 100 watts/channel.
You should probably retitle this thread to "receiver trouble". I wouldn't throw good money after bad to add components to the Rotel.
Where did you get it? How long ago? Scrapping it for a 2 channel Denon with sub preout would cost you $200.
Well you sensed correctly since the nearest repair shop that i would remotely trust is a 3 hour drive away. If it must be done it must be done. Regardless, I'm getting a sense that it might be prudent to beef up the power for the sound I want. correct?
I picked it up in Halifax the same time I got the M60's, Jan of last year. I had it ordered in.
Ok so get the Rotel checked out...
Problem is that we don't really know how loud you are playing. The RX-1050 is rated for 100W per channel and that seems to be a pretty "honest" rating so with M60s it should be able to play pretty darned loud without overheating.
Rather than buying new wire, I'm tempted to ask you to buy or borrow a Radio Shack SPL meter and let us know how loud you are playing. We don't know whether your problems are because your receiver is not putting out as much power as it is supposed to, or whether you just like to play really loud.
If the former, you need to get the receiver looked at (or have a friend bring their receiver/amp over) and then will probably be happy with the power that you have.
If the latter, yes a big honkin' amp would be a real good idea.
There are several people on the board who just like loud, clean music and ended up buying some fairly significant amplification to get that sound. One board member, "Tharkun", ended up with a stack of Parasound amps and a room full of M80s. There were some questions about whether he was throwing away money until people started going over and *listening* to the system... and nothing but amplifier envy after that
NSC, as I indicated before, in my view the 1050 should have plenty of power for the M60s if it's in good operating condition. So no, there should be no need to "beef up" the power beyond insuring that the 1050 is working as designed.
It it possible that he is pushing the receiver behond what its capabilities are.I once had a 220 watt amp shut down on me because of this.So some people who do like loud clean music could have a need for more power.
I would still get the Rotel checked out,it does have a 5 year warranty.
I’m still thinking it could be internal speaker wiring, which would be pretty simple to check with a Fluke. A short will cause tweeter failure. That would also explain why it isn’t playing as loud as it should be.
I just checked with the local Radio Shack. Unfortunately, no go with the SPL meter. Yes, there is a 5 year warranty on the Rotel. mdrew where would I get a Fluke?
I'll just add that the low 80's on the volume dial is the highest I go by far and that's rare. If I hear any distortion or I guess what I perceive as distortion I drop the volume down. I may have been pushing it there recently because it wasn't quite as loud as before since I think I may have already partially damaged the tweeter. When I isolate the speakers one definitely sounds better than the other so I guess that's the case.
I'm also wondering about my speaker wire. It's 14 ga. and longer than it needs to be. When I have a chance I'm going to shorten it up but is it possible that an extra 10 feet of wire would affect things?
Anyway I'm going to rewire my system (when my electronic minded friend gets back I'll let him look at it), buy a new tweeter and get the Rotel looked at. This may take awhile but I'll be sure and let you guys know how it went. You've gone above and beyong what I expected and I appreciate it.
I'll check back later if anyone has anything to add.
Thanks again.
That might not be enough info about that speaker wire. It's about 25 ft. long after it runs to the sub and out to the speaker. Another thing about the volume I play at. If I have the volume at the 80 level for 15-20 mins. my ears ring slightly when I'm done. I don't think I could stand that loudness for very much longer than that anyway.
just about any hardware store, or I'm sure your electrician freind has one. no respectable electrician goes without.
Hi there nscanuck.... i had a similar problem when I started out. My receiver was not getting enough ventilation. This caused excessive heat and finally shutdown after prolonged listening.
With alot of help from this board and the support at Axiom I found that every time my denon would cut out it sent a DC spike to my speakers (which is what eventually cooked my tweeters).
So my problem was I needed more cooling. My dvd player and shelf had to be moved another 8 inches off of the top of my receiver.
I placed a fan on top to also help ( which I've since removed, because the SPACE all the the Denon really needed)
Sometimes i like to play my music really loud... and now I can.
Now I'm not sure if that will help but maybe the rotel just needs a few more inches of space?
hope this helps
Thanks mdrew. Warfer, you're probably right and thanks for the info. Wid mentioned to me just last night that I need more space to let my receiver breathe. I'm going to rewire my system (thanks Wid), look into this Fluke gadget, buy a new tweeter, get more space over the receiver and then decide whether or not to get the receiver checked. It would be a pain in the ass to get that receiver checked (time/logistics) and I have to weigh opportunity costs here. If I don't get it checked I risk frying another tweeter but maybe the above will solve my problem.
It’s just a digital multi meter. Fluke is the preferred brand of electricians across the world. They set the standard that all others try to meet. Any ohm meter will do the same though. You are just looking to see if you have 0 resistance between the speaker wire conductors. If it’s anything other than 0, you have continuity ( a short ). But you will have to isolate the conductors between the binding posts and tweeters to check this. I have not torn mine apart, so I do not know for certain if they have quick disconnects, or not. They may be soldered. And I also do not know what other devises may be in line between the tweeters and binding posts. Can’t say that I’ve ever built a speaker.
But you can isolate the problem to the receiver or the speaker by swapping speakers first. If you blow another tweeter on the other speaker, you then know that it is the receiver causing the problem. I personally hate trouble shooting in this manor, but it may be your best alternative if you don’t wish to take the receiver in, or know how to check continuity.
Link to Fluke (cut and paste)…. http://us.fluke.com/usen/products/Fluke80SeriesV.htm
I use the 87V, but the 83V is more than adequate for home use.
NSC we use fluke multimeters in our automotive bay ; they are very expensive, about 500$ CND for a good quality one, Id suggest you check out EBAY, its where I got one for dirt cheap
I wish you luck in finding out the problem
You are most welcome