My review of the Axiom LFR-1100's after 60 day's worth of ownership:

The Prelude: Legacy Signature SE's and Axiom M-100's

We are beginning this review at about the time the conclusion of the review/comparison between the Legacy Signature SE's ($7000-$9000 / pair depending on finish) and the Axiom M100's ($2660-$3430 / pair depending on finish) was being written.

Both speakers have been impressive with a Marantz SR-7800 receiver driving them. The Legacy's reminding one of the B&W Diamond 802's: very detailed with a somewhat forward midrange and treble in comparison to the bass. A true Audiophile's speaker with the chops to hang with the $15,000-$25,000 per pair pedigree speakers one will find at a high end audio shop.

The review process on the Legacy's will be continued in the near future with a much more powerful amp. It's not that the Legacy's need the more powerful amp for SPL, but rather a high current amp to drive the twin sealed 10 inch built in subwoofers.

The M100's offer a sound that, while warmer than are the Legacy's, is very musical and accurate, with excellent bass to 30 Hz. The M100's are easily driven by the Marantz, although they also would benefit from a more powerful amplifier.

A conclusion is being drawn that these are an amazing value loudspeaker. They actually have a larger soundstage than do the Legacy's, and while not as "forward" as are the Legacy's, they are not lacking in detail. Both speakers will have an appeal to different types of listeners, and the "less than half the price" aspect of the M-100's has a BIG impact on the feel one gets for these speakers.

Early on in testing between the Legacy Signature SE's and the Axiom M-100's, I had no ability to do quick, level matched, blind testing. The first month was somewhat similar a listening test that one finds in any of the major magazines: Listening to each speaker knowing which speaker was being tested.

At approximately the one month point, I was more impressed with the Legacy's than the Axioms. Both are excellent speakers, and having both here is just too much fun. THEN things got serious: I purchased a pre amp level line switcher that allows me to listen to two pairs of speakers, completely blind, with level matched SPL levels and instant switching between them.

After 3 months of auditioning both pairs of speakers under blind conditions, to my surprise, the M100's have become my personal favorite speaker for music enjoyment. The caveat on my preference is that others will prefer the presentation as given by the Legacy speakers. Several friends have participated in some blind A/B testing between the two speakers, and both sets of speakers were picked as being the "better" of the two, depending on the listener.

To be precise, there were six others, besides yours truly participating in blind listening. Three picked the Axioms, two the Legacy's and one could not pick a favorite.
If you count my results, the results were 4 picking the M-100's, 2 the Legacy's and one could not pick a favorite.

The caveat on this is the realization that few people are going to purchase a pair of Legacy Signature SE's only to drive them with a Marantz receiver. I do plan on spending time over the long winter (as I write this, we are nearing winter 2015-2016) with both the Signature SE's and M-100's being run full range with an Outlaw 975 pre-amp, an Axiom 1500-4 power amp, and no subwoofer. Call it a rematch with a more capable amp.

A second visit to Axiom for more blind tests:

Enter Ian Colquhoun, the founder and president of Axiom. After reading the material comparing the Legacy's, M-100's (and Martin Logan ESL's, as well), he invites me to a second visit to the Axiom factory for golf, cocktails and some blind listening. At 55 years young, those are three items I just cannot resist. We set a date in late July, 2015, and I make time to drive north to Dwight, Ontario.

The directions from Ian are to meet him at a Marina on the Lake of Bays in Ontario. Ian is going to pick me up in his boat, and we are heading to golf at Bigwin Island. I arrive at the Marina, and it turns out that the only way to the golf course is by boat from this Marina, which is owned by the golf course. It's ten o'clock on this late July morning, it's already 82 degrees, and no one there has heard of Ian Colquhoun. A moment of panic is setting in, but it's short lived: After 15 minutes a boat is approaching the dock at what looks like a 70 MH speed. There's this big, red headed man looking somewhat like an early Bond Villain with a grin on his face piloting.

It's Ian, and his good friend Al, in the boat. It turns out the boat (and the membership to the golf course, which is why they did not know who Ian was) belongs to Al, but Ian always drives. "Slow" is not an option for Ian, including docking. We grab my golf gear, toss it in the boat and head to golf on the island. Should anyone reading this ever want a special treat, golf at Bigwin Island. It has a feel of being on a Caribbean Island while one is actually 150 miles north of Toronto. The course is challenging, with many blind shots, and the views are spectacular.

Our foursome spends the next 4 hours trying to kill every tree on the island, and when we leave I am left with the hope to play there again. It is after golf that the review process for the LFR-1100 begins. Al takes off to his place, agreeing to meet us later for cigars and the cocktails. Ian drives us to the factory in his British Racing Green MG, once again FAST (turns out, if one is far enough north, speed limits signs are actually suggestions, not limits), we arrive at the factory, and Ian shows me to the listening room. "Craig, I have some paperwork to tend to - do some listening and put your notes here".

He hands me a comparison sheet, and I spend an hour switching between level matched speakers. He gives no clue which speakers are in the room. They are hidden behind a screen made of speaker cloth. All electronics are Bryston, and the room is well built and silent.

Axiom has a pre-amp level switcher, which allows for uncompromised switching between the speakers. I finish the hour, write up the notes, and hand them to Ian. He laughs, and tells me to wait. He's gone for 5 minutes, then informs me I need to do the test again, with another dual pair of speakers, and hands me a blank worksheet.

After the listening is done, I turn in the sheets to Ian with all the notes. It turns out that it was the same two speakers, and the listening was done AB AB ... then BA BA in terms of speaker positioning. I picked the same pair of speakers as being "better" both times, and also got the same results as did Andrew, who is Ian's lead engineer. Being "unafraid" to take a blind test is essential to the Axiom experience (which is patterned after the teachings of Dr. Floyd E. Toole).

It is after these results are turned in that Ian asks if I will be interested in purchasing a pair of LFR-1100's for testing. As I have never liked "bi-polar" speakers, and as the M100's have already become one of my favorite speakers, my first inclination is "no". Ian is so confident that I will love the LFR-1100's that he reminds me that not only will I get an in home trial (which he extends to 60 days), he will pay the return freight if I am willing to order a pair.

After thinking on it for a couple of weeks, and looking at several different options available, I order a pair in Oak finish along with the ADA-1000-5 amplifier to drive them plus have an extra channel for a VP-180 center channel. As a side note, the LFR-1100's can be purchased with 4 channels of an ADA-1000 amp built into the DSP box for $5330 delivered to one's door, which makes the LFR-1100's a self powered speaker package complete with DSP for this $5330 delivered price.


ENOUGH of the intro - how does it sound?

The LFR-1100's, DSP and amp arrive safely, and are easy to set up. The complete system is an OPPO BDP-103 Universal player, an Outlaw Audio 975 pre-amp and the Axiom ADA-1000-5 amplifier. The DSP comes standard with the speakers, and the LFR-1100's require a 4 channel amplifier: One for the front of the speakers (consisting of three 6.5 inch long throw woofers, two 5.25 inch mid ranges and two one inch dome tweeters) and one for the rear (consisting of the dual 5.25 inch mid range and dual one inch dome tweeters).

Set up may sound complicated, but it is pretty straight forward: take the Left and Right output on the pre-amp into the Left and right input on the DSP, then Left front to one channel on the amp, Left rear to a second channel, Right front to the third channel, Right rear to the forth. Finish by running speaker wire from the appropriate amp channel to proper input on the speaker. After setting the speakers up, I left for a two day trip and let them burn in with pink noise.

Listening Tests - FINALLY:

The Cowboy Junkies: The Trinity Session

The Trinity Session is a remarkable album of songs that require a speaker to excel in micro dynamics as well as a wide range of instruments from Female vocals, Harmonica, Mandolin, Fiddle, Acoustic Guitar, Steel Guitar ... and yes ... even the Accordion. It was recorded at the Holy Trinity church in Toronto, and is a single microphone with the band playing/singing in a semi circle around this one microphone. A great speaker will give the feeling of being in the church, with ample ambient detail.

The performance starts with Margo Timmins singing "Mining For Gold" acapella. There is no intro, just her voice. With some speakers, one can also hear the underpinnings of the bass present in the church. With the LFR-1100's, she is in the room, and this bass under pinning is palpable. I am a real cynic about descriptions such as "Giving Goosebumps", but this song, leading into "Misguided Angel", does just that. The songs are presented almost as if Mining for Gold is the intro into Misguided Angel, and the combo is a very compelling, make one lean forward into the performance, treat.

The LFR-1100's present Timmins's voice as "out front and to the left" on Mining, then the harmonica lead in from Mining to Misguided, when played on these speakers, comes from a deep background. This intro of instrument is about 20 seconds long, then Timmins starts singing again, and one can hear she has stepped back from the microphone. Timmins sings with deep emotion, and one finds one's self feeling her angst as she tells her family why the man about whom she sings is "her one".

The rest of the disc brings other instruments into the performance - one aspect that really stands out is the detail: When the drummer is brushing the cymbals, it sounds like a brush on cymbals, not a speaker reproducing it. The occasions that Michael Timmins joins Margo in singing always places him to her right, and the image is rock solid.

Roger Waters: In The Flesh

For 14 years, this SACD has been a staple when testing loudspeakers. It has everything: soft, sound effect conversations underpinning music ... extremely powerful guitar solos ... soaring female vocals (Katie) ... synthesized deep bass ... etc ....

The Disc starts with Four songs from "The Wall", and for the first time, as the helicopter is coming in, one can easily hear what the guy is yelling in the background ... "Stand Still Laddie!!"

It's a powerful performance for well over 2 hours, and it needs a speaker that can handle the dynamics. I have heard this disc 100's of times on speakers like Infinity IRS Sigma's, Klipschorns, Energy Veritas, Paradigm Studio 100, Legacy Signature SE ... and the LFR-1100 is the one speaker that brings out all the emotions in this concert. Katie's solo on "Mother" is legendary, and the LFR's bring her into the room with power and finesse.

The realism of the soundstage is a tribute to the omni directional design. Suggested reading is Dr. Floyd E. Toole's Sound Power Curve measurements, and how they translate into loudspeaker performance. Axiom has taken great care with the interface between speaker and the DSP to get as pure a sound power curve as possible (and posted the curve as measured in an anechoic chamber on the Axiom site). For those not inclined to read 40 pages of what is basically a white paper, one must audition the LFR's with a disc like In The Flesh to get a feel for just how good a job a speaker can do in recreating a live performance.

After my most recent session with In The Flesh, I fired up "The Wall", which is a studio album. By contrast to the live disc, "The Wall" suddenly was very dry and two dimensional. This was unexpected, as this has not been noticed to this degree on other speakers, even the IRS Sigmas, in past listening sessions.

Steely Dan: Aja and 2 Against Nature:

These two CD's have been standards for testing a speaker's ability to deliver dynamics, male vocals, and complex instruments for years, or in the case of AJA, decades. The LFR-1100's were easily up to the task. They hit deep enough in bass to feel the difference in the bass track of 2 Against Nature with the various songs.

The disc opens with "Gaslighting Abbie" followed by "What a Shame About Me", and the synthesized kick drum on "Shame" is palpable/deep. Vocals are presented as two different voices occupying different locations of the soundstage that are clear and distinct, where lesser speakers somewhat lump them together.

On Aja, "Black Cow" jumps into the room with an immediacy that rivals Klipschorns while adding a width and depth the Klipschorns lack. Both these discs will sound good on even "decent" speakers, but the better the speaker, the more one wants to hear these two discs because it sounds SO good.
I visited a high end audio shop, and listened to a pair of Magico Q3's that were on sale for "$40,000, give or take". The music was both 2 Against Nature and Aja. While this was not "back to back", the results were remarkable.

The Magicos were driven by $25,000 worth of McIntosh Tube amps, pre amp and CD player and they still did not deliver any more detail than I was used to at home. I offered to bring the LFR-1100's in for a blind test, and the manager declined the offer. Hey, it was worth a try. I even told him that if the Magico's dusted the LFR's, I would buy them. It was a serious offer. He wasn't interested in any part of this.

Uriah Heep Live: 1973

The Uriah Heep disc is unusual for testing speakers, but for over 35 years, I have enjoyed it. It's such a well recorded live event with both massive dynamics and subtle clues that it is an essential listen for me. The two stars of the show are the vocals and drum. David Byron has a distinctive voice, and he is moving about the stage during the entire performance, and the LFR-1100's move with him.

When Rolling Stone reviewed this concert in 1973, they referred to Uriah Heep as having mixed "Heavy Metal Sound with Beach Boy's Harmonizing Voices", and it takes a special speaker to not only deliver Byron, but his band mates crooning in the background. "July Morning" and "Circle of Hands" are long ballads, with the band providing background vocals, and the LFR's place each singer on his area of the stage so well that one feels like firing up a lighter.

Hard driving songs like "Tears in My Eyes" and "Gypsy" allow for some fascinating dynamics. Uriah Heep was known for using Guitar Amps with tubes that delivered that unique 70's "Tube Distortion Sound", and the LFR's bring all of that raw power, distortion and all, into the room. Both are anthem songs, totaling about 25 minutes, and listener fatigue usually sets in, but not with the LFR-1100's. I have listened to this disc at least a dozen times with the LFR's, and never tire of any track.

I could go on in great detail about dozens of other CD's and movie soundtracks, but as we are already at 2500 words, let's list the other material used and summarize the first 45 days with the Axiom LFR-1100's.

Supertramp: "Crime of the Century" and "Brother, Where You Bound", Tony Bennett Live SACD, Randy Brecker's "Some Skunk Funk, Michael Stanley "Live in Tangiers" (some of the best male vocals one can find), Mozart Classic DTS, Eagles "Hell Freezes Over" (Hotel California on the LFR-1100's is a new experience), The Avengers 2012 movie (who needs 5.1 when 2.1 is SO good), Shaun of the Dead and a host of other movies were auditioned, and all reinforced the feeling that the LFR-1100's are something special.

Let's Try To Summarize
The summary of the LFR-1100's is the toughest part of this review. Nothing about the LFR-1100's will jump out at you. They don't have "crystal clear treble unlike anything I have heard". They don't have infrasonic bass (although the bass is solid to the upper 20's). They are not "liquid". What they do is bring the performance into the room.

They need space to operate: The review pair here are in a dedicated listening room, with exactly 34 inches from the sidewalls and 39 inches from the back walls.

They need the DSP (included in the base price) - which will allow a switch for a position nearer the back wall, but this is a compromise. You will lose some of the magic with near wall placement.

They need a high current, 4 channel amp to really shine, and for true, state of the art performance, adding a subwoofer will be needed. My personal reference system is now the LFR-1100's, a pair of EP-800 subwoofers and the ADA-1500-4 amp (the original ADA-1000-5 is so good I am putting it into another theater area to augment performance and ordered in the 1500 to complete the basement system).

The Axiom amp is an excellent choice with the LFR's, but amps from Emotiva, Outlaw, NAD and even some pro amps will work just fine. At the higher end, amps from Bryston, McIntosh, Krell and other high end sources will possibly bring the performance even higher: this will possibly be a future test.
The LFR-1100's will appeal to a listener who wants to be in the performance. For the $5000ish price of entry including the ADA-1000 amp/DSP combo, one could purchase speakers such as the B&W CM-10, PSB Imagine T-2 Towers, Paradigm Prestige 85 or Monitor Audio Gold Series 200's along with a good two channel amp and get excellent sound plus speakers that even some non audiophiles will recognized.

Most people have not heard of Axiom, so you won't get that "I just got a Lexus/BMW/Mercedes" approval. What you will get with the LFR-1100's versus the speakers mentioned above (and yes, I have auditioned all of them) is a deeper soundstage, a more transparent midrange with no harshness, and extended treble with no shrillness. We have all read reviews about how a speaker "sounds as good as speakers at 5 times the price", but they never mention the speakers.

I have listened extensively to B&W 802D's and Magico Q-3's at $15,000 and $36,000 respectively, and for sound quality, I decided to keep the LFR-1100's. With the usual caution that "your mileage may vary", The LFR-1100's represent perhaps the best value in high end speakers that I have heard. They make me want to spend time every night listening to music, and I cannot think of a better reason to own a pair of speakers than that.

this is super interesting reading. thanks!

Thanks for the great read and detail. Very informative!!!
Have been playing with my set up while reading your other thread, on Subwoofers
And finally found the perfect set up with my M80s driven by an old Crest audio (Peavey Pro}. Somewhat similar placement, although smaller room with openings to rooms on either side. As the wife is watching Christmas specials with tambourines and percussive instruments its like the real instruments are in the room finally nirvana.
Looking forward to more of your reviews.
Thanks again for all your time and passion with this hobby.
Cheers
brendostunes

Fantastic writeup. You've got me wanting to buy the trinity sessions.

I went from the M80 to the LFR1100. I think that you did hit the nail directly on the head when you say the LFR's make you feel like you are part of the recording.

The only other time I have felt that was with a rather expensive set of B&W speakers set up at an audio expo in Toronto some 15 years back.

Your take on Cowboy Junkies was poetic and directly to the point. I would say however that for me, it's her rendition of Sweet Jane that brings the goosebumps down my back.

Thanks Craig for your time and trouble with all of the listening tests/comparisons.
A new pair of speakers are in my future (for two channel music sans sub), with your review you've made my decision more difficult than I anticipated it would be. Now my short list has 3 candidates rather than just 2 to consider. At what distance from the back wall do you feel the LFRs lose their ability to deliver the spaciousness of the "onmi" design? This next set of speakers will be in a living room, 16 foot ceilings, open to 2nd floor, a couple of openings (kitchen and a hallway). In this room I will be limited with respect to placement out from the wall and no side walls to speak of.
thanks again, Jeff

Jeff - The DSP has 4 different settings: 1 near, 2 near, 1 far and 2 far. I have the DSP set to 2 Far for the 39 inches. "1 near" allows for placement at close as 8 inches with little to no loss of the depth that the design offers.

Another thing to consider is, for such a large space as yours, how powerful the LFR-1100's are.

If you get "serious" about ordering a pair, I recommend calling Debbie and asking her to work with you on pricing. For the higher end systems, she is your best bet to get the best available deal.

Hi Craig. As an owner of LFR1100v4's I appreciate your review here. I haven't listened to anything else that would even begin to compare so your words have special meaning to me. Gotta love the wood work on those Legacy's I bet.
Thanks, Brad

The trip out to Bigwin by boat is fun and the course is absolutely gorgeous.

I'm pretty sure this it the first time I've heard of a reviewer using Uriah Heep. Have not listened to them in ages.

My listening to the LFRs at the get together was much more casual. All I can say is that every time you listen they just sound better.

I wish I had the money for a pair.

What a wonderful review of these great Axiom speakers. It's also a tribute to Ian who has elevated customer service to new heights by including a speed boat ride and a round of golf on what sounds like one of the great courses to be found anywhere.

I have a pair of M100s and love them, but the idea of an upgrade to a pair of LFR-1100s just won't go away.

Enjoy the music!

Thanks for the kind words and also for the participation.

Ian takes a different approach to how he thinks his products should be viewed. Most company owners want to talk about the drivers, the crossover, the technology ... basically ... the HARDWARE used in building the speakers.

A lot of forum "gurus" buy into this. "A ribbon tweeter must be superior" ... "the diamond infused midrange" ... that type of talk.

Everything Axiom (and Bryston) does in terms of speaker development involves blind testing. It never stops. If a change is made in a crossover, it's made because of results of hours of blind listening.

This has been a policy for two decades.

MOST companies HATE blind testing, especially the higher priced ones.

A pleasant surprise two weeks ago when I brought up the topic of blind tests with a Vice President at Def Tech. I expected to be told how useless they are, but got quite the opposite. They are also dedicated to the blind test in developing speakers.

Ian, besides being passionate about good customer service, is also quite entertaining when telling you what he expects from a blind test. This is as close to a quote as I can give, based on memory ... it went something like this:

"Craig, if our speaker sounds terrible under blind conditions, then it's a terrible speaker"

When reading the material from Floyd E. Toole, one fascinating "find" they had in their testing is this:

GOOD sounding speakers, under blind tests, were universally liked by the panel. This does not mean all got the same results, but they got results that were consistent, with people preferring accurate sound every time versus a speaker with a "coloring" of the sound.

The preference levels under blind tests are always closer than in sighted tests.

As an example (and this is just a hypothetical for illustration), let's say we have a highly regarded $5000 per pair monitor being tested against a $400 monitor.

Sighted, let's say that, on a scale of 1 to 10, the $5000 speaker scored a 9.5 while the $400 speaker scored a 6 ... in blind tests, the score would be 9 to 8.5.

And the double blind - as is done at Axiom - is even more brutal.

If we have a GTG here, it will be as close to a double blind test as one can get. We have 8 different high end speakers available. This will allow us to do a test in which the listener has no clue what speaker is playing.

Craig, how far away from the LFRs were you sitting and how tall is your ceiling?

Mojo - I am still sitting about 12 feet from the speakers, the ceiling is just under 8 feet, and is a drop ceiling with another foot above it.

Picked it up for 2$ in my favourite used CD store. Score!

My first M80's sounded their best,IMO, at 12'.
Trying to balance all the "ideals" but somethings gotta give to hit a 12' distance.
Blind listening at Axiom is now (has been for a while) on my bucket list.

In the almost 13 months since the last post in this thread, a lot has happened in my life. It started last January when our oldest was having health issues.

He's been a type one Diabetic since age 9, and is now 25. His symptoms were consistent with early MS, and lots of testing was done. It ended up being a temporary issue with his nervous system, and by March, he was in the clear.

During this time period, I had found a pair of late 80's vintage Axiom AX-2's and put them into the system. We were waiting on a new ADA-1500-4 for the 1100's, and it was fun to listen to 25 year old Axioms.

They are an impressive speaker, especially for a simple 8 inch, 2 way speaker.

Then, in April, about the time the ADA-1500-4 arrived, our youngest had a serious accident while away at university and broke his neck in three places.

He was "this close" to being a quadriplegic on a breathing tube (just typing this gives one the shivers). The primary surgery was 7 hours, and the recovery was long and painful.

The good news, he's back in school and his biggest problem ow is weight gain from all the meds - so now he's working on that. To say we are grateful to God and the medical staff for his current health would be an understatement.

All this time, audio hasn't even been a hobby.

Tonight, after several months of the LFR-1100's being in storage and the ADA-1500-4 in the box, I wired them into the system with some new 10 gauge wire and fired them back up.

They are one HECK of a loudspeaker. The level of clarity is astonishing, and the depth of the soundstage is outstanding. I forgot how much I liked these speakers.

It's good to be back in the hobby - right now I am working on a review of a pair of EP800's in our main theater. The 800's would not win a "loudest at 20 Hz contest" against offerings from SVS-JTR-HSU-PSA, but they do things in our room we have never experienced.

Not only is the bass incredibly tight, but even at moderate volumes, we get room shaking bass that one feels. Linearity to 12 Hz is a good thing.

If there is any interest, I will put up a separate thread here about the test, and have an email into Dave Upton at Home Theater Forum about putting the test up there.

I also ordered a Powersound Audio V1801 to test - it's $1299 USD, delivered anywhere in the contiguous 48. It has an 18 inch driver, Ice Amp and a claimed -3 dB @ 16 Hz.

That's a lot of potential in a relatively affordable sub. It's also mostly American made (remember, America is a continent, not a country - Axiom and PSA both are dedicated to "working local", and I find that to be admirable).

I am very glad to hear your youngest son is doing better and is out of the woods. Put him to work moving subs around and he'll be fit in no time.

I myself have not been around that much over the last year or so. Sorry I missed your post Craig from way back. I am happy to hear things are looking more positive and will keep your family in my thoughts and prayers.

I am glad to be back myself and happy to see many of my old chums still around

Wow, this one hits too close to home. I'm very sorry to hear about your son but happy to hear about your son doing better and welcome back. I suffered a similar injury when I was 19, but to watch your child go through it must have been rough. Sadly I didn't get the medical attention I needed at the time and suffered since. It totally changed my life, I had to give up every athletic hobbies I enjoyed. I'm now 42 and the symptoms of the injury have become quite serious. But again where I live the medicare is horrible, and they won't risk surgery. Meanwhile I'm off work more then I'm working, losing my arms legs etc. I also have two more health issues I won't get into here that makes life "harder". Hence why I am looking elsewhere for help. I'm heading to Ontario the summer. I've been on more waiting list for for more doctors over the past 10 years than I can count and nobody will touch me. Which is why I have held back on buying toys over the last bit. Now Xmas time I think the woman, god love her, said screw it, get some new toys it makes you happy and I did but the reality is maybe I shouldn't have....but I did enjoy getting some new Axiom's! One of the few things I can still do is sit down and enjoy a movie and music when I can. But now I got the upgrade bug back....oh no.

If I can offer any advice to someone with a recent neck injury, do not leave anything unchecked, and fight fight fight to get everything taken care of right away. Once the injury has been there for a while, most doctors will say it's too late to do anything. Best of luck.

Mojo and Sirquack - Thanks for the kind words.

Newf ... Thank you for the hear felt advice. We have had a wonderful medical team, and the surgeon lives about 600 yards from us. A follow up is in April, and we are looking to have all the "metal" removed later this year.

Obamacare works!?

No, but Blue Cross and our surgeon do.

Dang about Obamacare. Nice to have a surgeon down the street. Sesame Street missed that occupation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwDq32MtOQU

Dang Craig, you've gone through a lot! I'm glad things are working out for the best.


Yeah, its been over a year now since I heard them, but damn they are good. Wish I had the $$

So glad to hear your son is still doing well with his recovery.

Will be following the Ep800 and it's rivals on that thread with much interest.

Brendo - Thank you!

There is a new thread on Home Theater Forum regarding subwoofers in the $2000-$2500 range.

Right now, the EP800 is first up, with a Power Sound Audio V3601 on order, delivery sometime in February.

The thread is here:

https://www.hometheaterforum.com/communi...woofers.351052/

I can't remember my login...
Good thing I don’t need to.
I'd love to feel the 18's, just something about the shear size puts in on the bucket list.
I will own an Axiom sub. Maybe next Christmas. This year, at least on paper, will be a better year.
Fwiw I have a space reserved under my back row.

Wow Craigsub, that made me regret not grabbing Ian's EP800 from the refurb outlet.

I read the review of that twin 18" sub also. I picked up an Epik Legend, twin 12" sub some years ago. Mine, along with everyone else's, died. I still use it as a stand for a nice plant. I'm a little leary about going with subs from manufacturers I am not familiar with.

I look forward to reading more of your reviews.

Apologies, Fred ... I missed this post. Yes, it was quite a year, and thank you for a very kind post.

Hopefully, someday yo will own a pair.

It was a bummer when Chad's company went under. Epik made some nice stuff, but he got stung by his OEM in China.

I am actually working on a plan to do blind A/B switching between the two subs (EP800 and V3601)

The difficult part will be getting a comparable response curve without running Audyssey. It will be a fun challenge!

It's been almost 3 months since the last update ... The subwoofer testing is going well. The EP800 can definitely hang with the big boys in real world listening.

With most material, it's hard to notice a difference between the EP800 and the V3601. Both are SO good that I am glad not to be trying to compete.

We just added an SVS SB16 Ultra as the third sub, and it's also an incredibly good pertormer.

The REAL reason for this post though is to bring up a "problem" with Axiom speakers ...

The LFR-1100's are so good that I can't find anything to bitch about.

What's the fun in THAT?

I own the LFR1100's and there is one clear thing to bitch about. those 3 piece speaker grills. they are a pain to align up. I'd have preferred to get a single piece set or have some form of groove or shape change that would keep them aligned up.

Sound wise, i have yet to find fault...

Have you hooked the 1100 to your ADA1500 yet have been interested in your opinion of the 1000 vs 1500.

The 1500 is hooked up, and I cannot tell a difference. I also tend to not listen to music at the levels a lot of others do, so I am not taxing either amp.

The 1500 will pretty much sound like a 1000, but have about 3 dB more headroom.

Ian and Debbie are convinced the 1500 is THE way to go. But if one is thinking in terms of dollars, the 1000 is a bargain.

So true if your not taxing the power, likely no difference.
As they are some what the same minus the power handling difference.

MatManBH .... After reading your post, I took the grills off both the M-100's and LFR-1100's, put them back on, looked at them, and repeated the process.

They all line up "perfectly" on our speakers. I have no words of wisdom why yours are a problem. We need a headscratcher emoji.

I just have OCD..

mine are out by a mm and can see they are not perfectly aligned. Every time i go into the room to listen, i have to adjust them to be perfect again.

As for the power level for the ADA amps.

I have the ADA1000-4 (as in 4 driven channels out). With the LFR1100 you have 4ohm on the front speakers and 8ohm on the rear. So my amp can deliver up to 250w of power to the front, and 125w to the rear drivers.

By comparison, the ADA1500-4 can drive 375w to the front and 325w to the rear. So you are getting 50% more power to the front and a whopping 160% more to the rear.

But, the rear speakers are just tweeters and mids, and I honestly don't see them needing anywhere need that much power as they are smaller drivers that don't need as much current as the larger 6.5" HP woofers. So driving the backs likely gain zero in added performance from a much larger amp.

So now we get to the front. You are going from 250w to 375w ... so a gain of 125w. That is quite a bit more but as Craigsub pointed out, this is a number at the high end of the volume where I believe it takes double the power for each db gain. so you've gained 3db for your more than double price tag.

What is missing inside this is dynamic peek power. Both these amps are plugged into a 15amp wall socket, so there is a limit to the amount of constant power they can pull. An ADA1000 is not limited to 250w, and can provide beyond that for short pulls. not nearly as much as the ADA1500, but what is not answered is would the amp have enough not to clip and if it did, by how much? And at what volume?

Back in the late 70's and early 80's when there was a large segment of Audio that actually loved the science end, the use of the "decibel watt" ... or dBW ... was a reference to get people to understand what happens as we add more "watts" to the equation.

It worked like this ... 1 watt = 0 dBW. Doubling the power adds 3 decibels, and ten times the power adds ten decibels.

For most of the music range - 100 to say, 5000 Hz, ten decibels "sounds twice as loud".

In other words, if we have a reference of 90 decibels, 100 decibels will sound twice as loud, but require ten times the output to sound this twice as loud.

So the scale looks like this:

0dBW = 1 watt
3 dBW = 2 watts
6 dBW = 4 watts
10 dBW = 10 watts
13 dBW = 20 watts
16 dBW = 40 watts
20 dBW = 100 watts
23 dBW = 200 watts
26 dBW = 400 watts
30 dBW = 1000 watts

The text below has the caveat that a speaker rated at, say, 87 dB for 1 watt at one meter in sensitivity will not be ruler flat at that spec (think +/- 3 dB), and also each speaker will start to compress at a certain SPL ... but it's still a good method for understanding the relationship from "watts" to "loudness in SPL"

This made it fairly easy to take a speaker's sensitivity and the appropriate dBW and come up with total output.

All ratings for SPL will be using the "dB per watt at one meter".

An 87 dB speaker and a 200 watt amp would mean adding 23 dB to the 87 dB, and that speaker would deliver 110 dB at one meter with the 200 watt / 23 dBW amp.

A 104 dB speaker and a 10 watt amp would mean adding 10 dBW, with the speaker delivering 114 dB.

This is why we often see Klipschorns using small tube amps.

Craig, you said the SB16 is giving you some good chest thumps. You also said that's an indication the sub is linear. We know however from Dale Rasco's results the EP800 is very linear but you haven't described the EP800 as a chest thumper. You've described it as "rippling bass".

So...what is more accurate? Rib cage rattling as a result of thumping or gonad tickling as a result of rippling? Both can't be accurate - it has to be one or the other.

He can't pick a favourite. At the outset the terms of his testing were no "shootout" results. This way companies are more likely to cooperate. The internet has a way of latching onto to a single review and taking it as the be all end all. Axiom got burned a while back by a Sound and Vision shootout. Avoiding this is paramount to any online company. But you already knew all that.

If you read between the lines you know what he favours. Or at least I think I do...... And you know which one he continually uses as a benchmark reference: the 800.

So far the Klipsch "won" the earlier round of testing.
The SB16 ultra is currently wowing him, but the ep800 isn't easy to look past (or around, or over.... )

Craig, say it straight for us man. You have set up so many subs that you can get similar results from any of 'em. Most people couldn't tell the difference once set up correctly.

The hard part of the long threads can be finding pertinent information easily ... The Klipsch was not the "winner" of the $1000 subwoofer test.

For sheer bass output, depth and sound quality, the Rythmik and Hsu were pretty much a tie.

Here is one mid test summary BEFORE the Rythmik arrived ...

""While this is not intended to be a "ranking order" subwoofer test, as they are both the same size and money, it's becoming clear that the Hsu is a more sensible choice than the Klipsch. One does not have to sacrifice sound quality to get BOOM down deep.


Both the Axiom and SVS subs will fit in places that the Hsu and Klipsch won't. The SVS is surprisingly easy to place, and the Axiom is a sub that almost disappears. The pictures will be essential to showing the differences between the 4 subs.


If you are somewhat space limited, and crave 15 Hz in room, the SVS is a great choice. If you are somewhat space limited and want the fidelity of the Hsu, and can give up 3 dB, the Axiom is an excellent option - in fact, it can deliver terrific bass from 22 Hz and up in even big rooms.""

For the $2000-$2500 subwoofers, There is more to be done, including getting the latest Rythmik "super sub" later this year ...

The EP800 is the standard bearer for two reasons - I really love how it performs and am also more familiar with it than the other subs.

Based on the performance, it's likely that our rooms are going to be swapped out later this year, with certain subs slotting into each room, along with certain speakers.

Craig can you confirm your preference to use or not to use the subsonic filter on the EP800?
Just curious...

I have never engaged the subsonic filter. This may explain the 11 Hz floor we got in our rather difficult theater room.

Could you try it without, just to round out the comparisons?
Limiting it might change the nature of the beast...

Funny you would mention that ... it may take a while, but yes, I will be putting the EP-800 (actually - 3 of them) into the system later this year and will do some comparisons with/without subsonic engaged.

Tx

I have been doing some back and forth with and without the subsonic applied, and the filter does lose some of the real "feel".

For example .. the Trinity Sessions from Cowboy Junkies has this subterranean bass present during the entire performance (word is it's from the Toronto subway system) ... the filter takes some of this away.

Steely Dan's 2 against nature also loses some of the depth with the filter engaged.

I am still thrilled with the speakers, too. Just upgraded from the Outlaw 975 to a Marantz 7703, and it sounds AMAZING.

The LFR-1100's with the EP800 is a world class performer at a real world price.

Every couple of months, I audition some really expensive stuff, and always come away with wanting the system at home.

Hi Craigsub

I just picked up a Marantz AV 7703 from Amazon. They threw in a Klipsch SW 311 sub. Couldn't resist. I'm replacing an Integra DTC 9.4 processor (no HDMI). Haven't set it up yet, but hope to get it up and running next weekend.

I'm very glad to hear you like yours. Are you running ATMOS? If so, what do you think?

I felt some anxiety about buying another piece of audio equipment.

I thought about going to a shrink to rid myself of my audio obsession. Then I figured, I'd use the money I use for audio to pay a shrink, but then the shrink would have my money and he could buy a lot of audio equipment, and I'd be cured, but ... he'd be getting the good stuff!!!

I'm just going to have to deal with it.

Conference Room 7.2 HT system:

Marantz AV7703
Axiom M-80s
Axiom VP-160
Axiom QS-8s
Mission 77ds
Axiom EP400
Axiom EP500
Yamaha M80 2 channel amp
Anthem PVA 5 (5 channel amp)

Craig where do you cross the 1100's with the EP800's?

At just short of $10k for speakers, what world do you live in Craig?

I think he meant "not this world: Ultimate high end speakers "

Most world class performer speakers are in the $50,000 per pair range and up, assuming we are looking at getting to 20 Hz.

These speakers will also require at least $10,000 in amplification, and STILL will not play as deep, throw a soundstage as deep (but will as wide) and won't exceed the ability of the ADA-1500-4, a pair of LFR-1100's and a pair of EP800's to deliver reference levels of crystal clear sound from 11 Hz to beyond 20,000 Hz.

The ENTIRE package is available from the Outlet store for under $12,000.

$12,000 is not inexpensive, but when it compares favorably to a Magico system driven by McIntosh amps that total $90,000 ...

You get the idea.

The ADA 1500 got tubes?

No ... it does what a good amp should do: amplify the electrical signal without a response variation regardless the impedance of the speaker in question. This is what properly designed tube or solid state amp does.

Yes, I was being facetious. I've only heard good things about the Axiom ADA amps.

And I have only heard good things OUT of mine!

Well then you must be putting good things into it...

Yes ... you were being you ...

I am looking into a good tube amp, just for the fun of having one. The only tough thing now is I am negotiating the purchase of two auto dealerships, so not only is money tight, so is time.

Good luck with your venture!

You can't go wrong with a nice McIntosh. Resale is pretty easy and they keep their value.

Of course, for just trying one out, you may want to try a hybrid, like Monoprice's 50 wpc amp for $199 USD. Wait for a 30% off sale and you'd end up with one for about $140!



I've given away 2 of their less powerful 25 wpc hybrid, now only $140. They are a great match for the M3s.

Some interesting things happen when one talks to a manufacturer about doing BLIND listening tests on loudspeakers. The most fascinating is as soon as the explanation is made regarding the testing under true blind conditions with a pre-amp level switcher, all interest is lost.

Over the last two years, I have reached out to 22 manufacturers of speakers ranging from $39 per pair to $15,000 per pair.

In the over $1000 per pair arena, it has been 14 manufacturers.

TWO have been willing and friendly about the process. Those companies are Legacy Audio and Axiom Audio.

And the LFR-1100's, M-100's and Signature SE (Legacy) are my personal favorite speakers.

The Legacy speakers are B&W killers for 1/3rd the price. Yes, they will compete with the Diamond 800's. Both are astonishingly "clear" speakers with a somewhat forward midrange.

The M-100's are very close to the PSB Imagine T-3, which sell for $7500 per pair and have gotten RAVE reviews from almost every magazine. In contrast to the Legacy/B&W speakers, the PSB/Axiom are more neutral, and to me, more musical. I could not pick a true "preference" between the M-100's and the T-3's.

That being said, it's understandable why others (Dave Upton from Home Theater Forum for example) prefer the somewhat more forward sound.

Legacy does a bit more advertising than does Axiom, but neither company has built its reputation on word of mouth from other audiophiles.

It's also understandable why most manufacturers refuse to do blind tests. One manufacturer, whose name will be left out, was actually insulting when we talked. This manufacturer has several full page ads in every magazine and AMAZINGLY gets rave reviews on its products.

When visiting an audio store that carried this company along with Magico, B&W and Magnepan, it was funny. Off to the side, and after I was making some "disappointed faces" over the sound of the in-named world beaters, the salesman was quite honest in letting me know that this company's speakers were great for sales, but not for music.

The Maggie 0.7's were a surprise. If one researches Magnepan, one will find that, as with Legacy and Axiom, all speaker development at Magnepan is done blind.

The Maggies STOMPED the $5000 per pair "superspeaker" from the in-named company in terms of music. A pair is only $1400, and they make good music.

The reason it's understandable is: The main magazines and manufacturers have a small business model they are trying to protect. Blind tests do not help that business model. The business is not built around the hobbyist, it's built around sales.

The salesman at the store also loves the Maggies. He said nothing, just put them on after the let down of the uber speaker from "un-named".

After the audition, he was telling me that the Maggies plus a JL Audio 10 inch sub would, for $2500, destroy $5000 per pair super speaker and deliver subsonic bass. This salesman, who is in his 50's and has spent his adult life in the business, was a refreshing change from what we usually see.

He has a following that knows he will steer them right. He also has people coming in with the "Stereophile said this was Class B ... I want a pair" ideal, and he just rings up the sale, knowing that he would lose a sale if he tried to educate the consumer.

Ok ... rant over.

Well written and informative, as usual Craig. Thank you.

I would suspect that the majority of companies actually do "in-house" blind tests to, at the very least, improve their product but as you've clearly shown, they care more about maximizing their profit margins by controlling/not allowing independent testing.
Funny how so many people in this industry just don't trust their own hearing.

Two corrections ... When I said "neither company has" in regards to building a reputation based on word of mouth, I meant BOTH HAVE.

And I managed to type "in-named" instead of "un-named".

Adrian - Most companies do not do blind listening tests, although the Harman International Group has the best blind test abilities around, in terms of hardware.

The magazine world actually supports this trend. Audio Magazine and the Audio Critic, both proponents of blind tests, are history. Stereophile and The Absolute Sound, who rake in more advertising $$$$ than anyone in this business, have written extensive, and nonsensical, papers on why blind listening is the "wrong way" to evaluate.

The public prefers to the approach taken by Stereophile/Absolute Sound.

I guess what I'm inferring is that "company x" makes a speaker, then wouldn't they test it either against one of their own or previous version of said speaker, just to benchmark it? in other words, tweaking/tuning the speaker to improve dynamics ect. Not disagreeing with you, it just seems so easy.

Hi craigsub

So glad to see your update to this thread.

When I bought my Emerald Physics EP2.8s, I also auditioned the $50,000 Legacy speakers with Raven tube amplification. That combination sounded great. Of course, so did the EP 2.8s, at the hotel, not so much in my living room, where they sound very mediocre, that is, not as good as my M22Tis with a Harman Kardon tube receiver TA5000x.

Maggies are terrific and terrific bargains as well.

As to audio magazine reviews, I think many are "Advertorials," bought and paid for with advertising dollars. I think this is the case with many but not all their reviews.

I think that is why the major audio magazines, Stereophile and The Absolute Sound, don't review Axioms. No advertising dollars from Axiom. Home Theater Review, on the other hand, seems to give honest reviews.

When was the last time you saw a magazine give a product advertised in their mag a lousy review?

2x6 ... You won't see negative reviews in a magazine that accepts advertising, unless there is a comparison with products that do advertise.

The issue with your 2.8's was pretty easy to spot for people who have been around audio for a long time. Think of the "macro issue" of ordinary audiophiles buying these speakers then having them sound mediocre at best, when listening at home. Is the business model Mr. Schifter promising for months to show up to fix them, and maybe making it after 6 months?

In the mean time, one can take a pair of Legacy, PSB, Axiom, Bryston, Paradigm, Klipsch (heritage) ... and a variety of other speakers and have them sounding GREAT in 10 minutes.

The problem, again, is that the buying public LIKES how Stereophile/Absolute Sound do things. It's an ego stroke .....

"My system was $78,000, and all Class A components"

In the meantime, my $15,000 Axiom system sounds better. And it isn't because it's "mine". It's because it was designed using real, solid engineering.

I would hazard to say the Emerald Physics model is to stall so that you cant remember how they sounded and the customer cannot send them back because you've had them for too long. It doenst matter what wild and incredible promise that they made to you that if they don't sound as good as what we had them like.. its all a marketing ploy. And I think you'd find that even if you convinced them to issue an RMA number to ship them back to them at your cost, you'd find that the issuing of the cheque back to you will never happen or will be stalled for just as long in hopes you'd simply give up and forget about it.

If you look at the Axiom model, they ship a fully working and can easily get sounding excellent speaker. You have problems, they will be more than happy to get on the phone with you if there is something you are doing wrong, or if it's a technical problem then ship you out the replacement parts right away. Then give you the 30 days to actually evaluate the speakers in your own home on your equipment. That is not the standard business model for the speaker of HiFi audio community.

I bought my first Axiom speakers 15 years ago. Started with M3s and a nice SET tube amp. Was love my friends. Most of my speakers are either Axioms or made by Axiom (Michauras). They are wonderful sounding. Customer service? There is no better.

I don't know what went wrong with this Emerald Physics venture. What I auditioned were stunningly great sounding. If they can get mine to be stunningly great sounding, I will keep them, but I have to say, the bloom is off that rose in any case.

Craigsub, you nailed it. I am sorry I plunked big bucks for these exotics. Used high end speakers (Thiels, heritage Klipsch, Dahlquists (real ones), Legacy, and of course, Axioms, new or used, are the way to go, IMO.

Happy New Year boys!

Amen, Craig!

From their own features section:
Removes the rooms acoustics so they work in all rooms

Did you make sure you hooked up the space vacuum? You know, to eliminate the propagation of sound waves and eliminate acoustics? Might be the issue.

I visited the product page..... Feel bad you dropped the dough. Hope you get a resolution, but I would guess the DSP is borked somehow.

Yes, hanging out in vacuum environments does make for explosive sound, followed by dead silence.

Hi all - It's been a while since my last post anywhere here - The short version of my absence was the purchase of an auto dealership last fall. The dealership was ready to fail, and turning it around has been a 60 hour per week task.

BUT … this week, we had two exceptional nights with the LFR-1100's, VP-180 HP and M-100 system. Bass is anchored by a pair of EP-800's.

We had company and watched the Blu Ray of "Rock of Ages" and "Avengers: Infinity War". The company was astonished at how amazing the sound was. The company was right. I still absolutely LOVE these speakers after 3 years. The oak cabinets still look brand new!

And for those who get the news letter - Ian mentioned the "Stephen Stanley Band" played at the 35th anniversary party.

Our system was the actual system used for the "PA" system at the party, and it ROCKS.

On several recent business trips, I have had the chance to listen to some $200,000 plus systems with Magico, B&W and other ultra high dollar systems, and always am happy to get back to the Axioms.

Hi Craig,

Good to see you back. I recently added LFR1100 to my system which are also complemented with VP180 and EP800. I second without reserve your experience with them.
They are unbelievably good and sound way, way far better than their price suggests.

I'm still enjoying the EP800v4NME and the VP160v4. A few of us watched Den of Thieves on Netflix...RAT! TAT! TAT! BLAM! BLAM! POW! KABOOM! I had a 'nad-tickling good time and the ladies couldn't contain themselves from all their sphincter-twitching. Craig, you gotta trade in those girlie 800v3 for the latest manly-man 800v4NME.

Mojo - We have the V.4's … does the enema package add anything?

Heeheehee...I can see how NME can be interpreted as enema. NME is the 'nad mass edition. The 20 Hz cutoff switch was replaced with a switch that gives 'nad tickler and gut punch modes. Nad tickler is flat. In my room, after careful calibration, the gut punch mode gives me a 7dB boost between 53Hz and 76Hz. Thats a 5-fold boost in that bandwidth. This is very welcome in my room because I end up with pretty much a flat response. I know you know all this Craig but you likely got a bit of stress-induced amnesia from bringing that dealership back from the dead.

You got the disco package. That's AWESOME !!

Yeah...the platform shoes, bell-bottoms and satin open-neck shirt haven't come off since I got it.

JC - thanks for the welcome back. Completely off topic, but throwing it out there - I bought a pair of Ohm Walsh SSC4900 in February. They are very close to the LFR-1100 system using the famous Walsh driver.

Listening tests were so close that I ended up with using them in the high end, two channel system and the Axioms in the big theater.

Ohm builds their stuff in New York City - so both products are American (continent) made.

I also auditioned the so called "Stereophile Class A Goldenear Tritons. Talk about over hype! They were dry, lacking soundstage … just mediocre.

You are always welcome Craig as are your comments and opinions.

When it comes to "Professional" audio reviews, you really need to take them with a grain of salt as per your "Stereophile Class A Goldenear Tritons" latest experience. You really need to trust your own ears.

"I bought a pair of Ohm Walsh SSC4900 in February. They are very close to the LFR-1100 system...."

Hmmmmm...I would have never expected a conventional speaker to sound similar to a direct/reflecting loudspeaker with a DSP-based "equalizer". Does this include micro and macro dynamics?

Mojo - which is, in your opinion, the "conventional speaker"?

Both excel at micro and macro dynamics. Both are Omnidirectional and present a massive soundstage. The Walsh driver design dates back to the late 60's and has had many updates in its 50 year tenure.

Both speakers are even about the same price. I would have a hard time picking one over the other.

The conventional speaker is the one that doesn't have "fancy gimmicks" but I suppose after reading about the Ohm Walsh that has fancy gimmicks as well.

Is the soundstage presented the same in both speakers? You know what I'm asking. Are the performers in front or behind?

The Soundstage is similar in both - very deep and wide. If listening to a well recorded live Album, the audience cues are often from behind you, which is pretty cool for a 2 channel system.

Both designs have years of listening tests combined with measurements to get the Omni Directional "just right". Axiom uses the DSP while Ohm uses sound barriers at the rear of the speaker. Both get the job done in a way that conventional (including most bi-polar) do not.


One of the least enjoyable speakers I ever owned was Def Tech BP-2000 and BP-3000. Straight Bi Polar and terrible soundstage.


One of my favorite things to do is have people listen to "In The Flesh" from Roger Waters. When "Hal", the robot from 2001: A Space Odyssey is speaking, he starts at the front of the room, and goes down the side and ends up behind you. People cannot believe this is all with two channel, and it is only the Ohm and Axiom that do it.

The LFR-1100's are easier to drive - probably a good 4 dB more sensitive. Both are SO good.

It's quite amazing that what you are witnessing was achieved with a passive architecture. This tells me Axiom needs additional, circumferential drivers on the LFRs to achieve greater dispersion if they truly want to top the Ohm Walsh.

Having a pair of the LFR speakers in my listening room, I was curious about your music suggestions to point out the spectacular sound. What track(s) are you referring to from the Rogers Waters live album are you referring to.

The entire disc has audio treats imbedded in it. The "HAL" section is on the second disc. The best way to experience "In The Flesh" is to relax with a cocktail and listen to both discs.

Actually the doctors now say alcohol is never good for you. Not even a glass of red wine. All the good things in life are bad for us!

Last week it was bread . LOL. But yeah , quit many years ago and since i dont make alot of money i can buy things i would have other wise been unable to. Also my heath is much better,have not had a cold or flu for over 6 years and my boss is sick on a regular basis. To each his own.

"...and since i dont make alot of money..."

said Socketdude who figured it was too inconvenient to rent a mustang so he bought one!

My point regarding Craig's cocktail was how can we really know HAL was talking along the sides and back of his room in stereo when Craig was annebriated with those girlie drinks he likes so much?

Great review sir! Thanks for taking the time and giving great details.

That should be easy to resolve with some additional testing (and cocktails)... first play the track without drinks, then repeat while administering beverages to see if any change in imaging & sound positioning is observed.

Doing it double-blind would be tricky - getting someone to mix the drinks is easy but not having the test subject aware of what they are drinking would be more difficult without use of an IV setup - but I was surprised to find that some tiki drinks could be made alcohol free without changing the taste that much, expecially in very hot weather.

I volunteer for this testing.

"One of my favorite things to do is have people listen to "In The Flesh" from Roger Waters. When "Hal", the robot from 2001: A Space Odyssey is speaking, he starts at the front of the room, and goes down the side and ends up behind you. People cannot believe this is all with two channel"

I want to try this.
Probably could have saved a few dollars but amazon makes it so easy.
I'll let you know if I can recreate this with 2 channel only.

Give me a link bro.

Sorry Mojo i must have missed some of the replies and spoke out of turn. As for the mustang, i am renting it from the bank for the next 6 years unless of course i drop dead.

I promise to take care of it if you bequeath it to me.

Some scientific observations:

1. Based on statistics, the leading cause of death is being born. Alcohol doesn't even come close.

2. Of the 14 doctors I know, 9 are idiots. The other 5 are REALLY good. They also like a good cocktail.

3. Mojo is clearly compensating for something. His use of the phrase "girly drinks" is a cry for help.

4. This is the last sane Audio Forum.

5. calling it a cocktail does not make it better for you
6. Strippers are not Ballerina's
7. it is a great forum but deathly quiet of late

6. "Strippers are not Ballerina's"

That's not true! Channing Tatum is a wonderful ballerina and he used to be a stripper.

I am not sure if that is from the population being in withdrawal coma from the lack of alcohol,

or

The residence here being smashed and sprawled on the floor from trying to drink all the alcohol that is now no longer wanted because supposedly it is bad for us.

In the past couple of years, I now have accumulated more doctors than friends - all specialists except one, ha!

TAM

I am impressed.
Not my typical type of music and I don't really like how the lyrics are read more than sung for a lot of the tracks.
That said I really did enjoy both discs, specifically the first 40-60 seconds of nearly every song.
The bass in this is really nice. The music is recorded really well. Lots of layers and background sounds seperate from the concert.
There were quiet a few moments where I knew it was a good purchase.
I highly recommend subs for this CD set. The lower octave adds a layer of intensity that is most welcome.
Hal didn't walk down the side but was firmly planted about 6 feet in front of the left speaker and a foot or so off the wall. A very nice effect.
I wish I had more music that was recorded this well.

I didn't look at the production date but can assume it's relatively new. Pretty sure there's a few critisisms/observations of President Trump in there.

"In the Flesh" is from 2000. Roger Waters is pretty far left. As a libertarian myself, I don't agree with his politics, but nothing about Trump is on that disc.

I have to listen again. I didnt note what song it was in but I'll try to find the time stamp next time I listen. The lyrics reminded me current politics.
I want to find the best bass moments to. Hopefully someone else will confirm the same sensation at the same time stamp. Like a literal wave of water pushing up against your upper body, almost a wave pool dejavu moment. It repeats a few times and was pretty cool.

Rjlitho came over this weekend to see if the sound that I am getting from my system is similar to what he is getting with his setup. As I have LFR's I disconnected the leads off the back drivers so it was operating much like a M100. We experimented with turning on and off the subs so he could get a feel for what the EP500 added to the sound mix.

The best moment that I got was while playing a track he chose, I went and plugged back in the back leads to turn back on the LFR omni sound, and Rjlitho said the second that the leads were plugged in, it was like the sound just wrapped around you. That is the experience that everyone should have.

The width of my room must be advantageous, I often get wrap around imaging. I still turn my surrounds off from time to time.

All of you out there in Canada who are getting wrap-around imaging from stereo, your environment is set up wrong or you're consuming something that is not yet legal.

Hi Mojo,

The LFRs are legal in Canada

I set you up perfectly for that one.

Thumbs up emoji doesn't work...
Less than a month away.
Get to see a concert a few days after, can't wait to see the cloud in the arena.

Any members going to see the Foo fighters in Edmonton on Monday night?

Wish I had a bigger room and a bigger budget.
Would consider fully active M5HP's to be next on the list though.
Don't really want to trade up my ADA to get there...
Lol

I don't think Axiom will offer fully active M5s any time soon. I think only LFR models will be fully active. It's a real shame because the M5s may very well be the only speakers 99% of listeners need. We were watching the last few episodes of GOT on BluRay last night at -10 on the Onk which is about all my ears can take. You could feel the energy coming off the M5s from 10 feet away. It was seamless wall-to-wall sound across 22 feet and tall and deep to boot. There was nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing, that I felt was missing. All speakers had disappeared and there was just clean, transparent sound!

The large room indeed makes one heck of a difference. I don't know how I'll ever be able to down-size.

Hi Mojo,

Actually, there is such a thing in development right now. I think a fully active M5HP would make a great studio monitor.

My apologies, Ian. Will you be preserving the current M5HP family of curves or modifying them for near-field listening?

Whats your honest opinion on using them to achieve the best of both worlds, HT and 2.0, in a small(ish) room.
Not necessarily near field, I would expect to maintain an ~8-12' listening distance.

We have more control over the details when using a DSP in a fully active system instead of an analog crossover. So the family of curves would be similar but more refined.

I am sooooo looking forward to comparing them against the analog version. Has any thought been given to user controls for tailoring the response?

Fearing a very large number... but about what price range will the fully active LFR's be costing? and will there be a very attractive price for those of us who already own an LFR to trade up?

If the shape of the speaker is not changing? then would it be possible to take the older LFR and convert it into an active model??

Hi Matt,

It would be a daunting task to bypass the internal crossovers to modify an existing LFR to active. Probably the best options would be either the Trade-Up program or sending them to the factory for us to do the bypass surgery.

The meaning of "fully active" in this context is just starting to work its way through my brain.

Is it fair to say you are talking about bi- or tri-amping, with woofer/mid/tweeters having different channels of amplification ?

The LFR active would actually be quin-amped. The DSP would have one input and five outputs per channel. The internal crossovers would be replaced by the DSP, giving us the ultimate control over everything in the design phase.

John, now you can't complain about not having anything to upgrade to.

So where is the DSP and where are the amps located? Is everything moved inside the LFR or are all the components still located externally?

Just wondering from a wiring side. Also as you will be going with 5 individual amps, if they are located integral to the speaker, what size do you run? I am not sure if this is a different product from the wireless speaker that you have listed for the LFR.

You can get the amps and DSP mounted in the cabinets or externally. I am sure wireless will be an option.

Geez, let me get the LFR1100's I have out of the boxes first.

I hate hooking up new speakers without a bit of A/B with the previous ones... has anyone hooked up just the fronts or should I leave the M5HP's hooked up to their amp and switch at preamp-to-amp level ?

Asking because it would be a more interesting comparison if I could separate the sound of the "M100" front half from the DSP/omni effect.

I don't think hooking up just the front drivers will mimic an M100.

I think you ought to try a few different orientations:

- experiment with toe in
- rotate them 180 degrees
- swap the DSP connections so the front is back and back is front. Sort of like, hey there's our friend Mr. McCraig - he's got a leg for an arm and an arm for a leg.

Hi Matt,

I am leaning to having two options. One with the amps and DSP built into the speakers and the other with them outboard. The outboard version would be for the people who want to power them with crazy amounts of power, like me .

Now that I've had the opportunity to own multiple v4 including the M100 and play around with different receivers and amps, I'm starting to pay more attention to average and dynamic speaker ratings. If you put a 600W amp in the LFR1100, why would anyone want more? The 1100 is rated at 2400W dynamic; that's 4dB above the max average rating of the amp. Anyone listening to well-recorded music at 600W, is bound to drive the 1100s into compression or worse provided the internal amp has 4dB of headroom.

There is one more thing to consider though. When an amplifier clips a dynamic peak it is nasty but a speaker just reaches compression so you don't actually hear anything.

Hey Craig,
What has become of the different loudspeakers you have been auditioning throughout this review?
Still using some of them or have they all been auctioned off?
Just curious.
Jeff

Jeff - The Legacy Signatures are gone. The Ohm Walsh SSC-4900, Axiom M50's, M100's, LFR-1100's and Active 1100's are here. The Magnepan LRS, Human 81, Klipsch La Scala II's and Cornwalls are also still here.

Craig,
Would have enjoyed hearing some of those, especially the Legacy’s .
They were high on my list at one time.
Thanks, Jeff