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#172111 - 07/22/07 01:21 AM Re: hk 3480 modification: science or wishful heari [Re: RickSean]
tomtuttle Offline

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8488
Loc: Tacoma

an objective evaluation of a speaker or piece of audio equipment based on simply what they hear

Well, now you've gone and confused me about the difference between subjective and objective.
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

#172112 - 07/22/07 01:51 AM Re: hk 3480 modification: science or wishful heari [Re: RickSean]
2x6spds Offline

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 3121
Loc: CA, USA
Sean and Rick

Perhaps you weren't aware that you're posting on the Axiom loudspeaker forum, where our members know it all. You can't fool us by even suggesting that different amplifiers with similar specifications have any discernable difference in sound quality. To suggest otherwise is a violation of the canons of collective wisdom here, and our canons of collective wisdom are strictly enforced by our resident geniuses like pmbuko.

We understand that there are snake oil salesmen out there who have dedicated their professional lives to tweaking, modifying, even designing and building audio components believing their efforts would result in an improvement of sound quality.

Now, here on this board, we don't really care about sound quality. We insist on listening to charts. Better men than you have snickered at the idea of audio bliss through frequency response curves, call us 'chart zombies and all, but then again, you're a stranger here, aren't you?

After a while, you'll fit in. Let us know when you start using string instead of fancy speaker wire and interconnects.

Then you'll be one of us.

Until then expect a bit of derisive correction from our enforcers of the one, revealed, audio truth.

Charts rule. Who needs ears.
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

#172113 - 07/22/07 02:16 AM Re: hk 3480 modification: science or wishful heari [Re: 2x6spds]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11677
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
The ears are fine. It's when they're connected to a brain that all of the problems arise.

#172114 - 07/22/07 07:58 AM Re: hk 3480 modification: science or wishful heari [Re: 2x6spds]
Spoiler Offline

Registered: 01/03/06
Posts: 683
Loc: South Florida
Close Your Eyes. Enjoy the Music. Then trust your ears. Respect Others with a Differing Valid Opinion.
Epic 80 / SVS PB13 Ultra
Denon 3805 / M2200 Outlaw Monos /
Sammy 55" LED

#172115 - 07/22/07 09:06 AM Re: hk 3480 modification: science or wishful heari [Re: Spoiler]
Mojo Offline

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 4700
Let's get the facts first. Then we can distort them as much as we wish .

#172116 - 07/22/07 09:08 AM Re: hk 3480 modification: science or wishful heari [Re: 2x6spds]
Ajax Offline

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6331
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Totally unnecessary and unproductive diatribe, 2x6. You made no argument or point, you just made personal attacks dripping with sarcasm and laced with grossly exaggerated, and false, hyperbole. Sadly, doing so says more about you than it does those whom you insult.

With so much anger, frustration, and hatred for many here, it causes one to wonder why on earth you even come here, let alone post here. The only answer that comes to mind is that your goal is to irritate, upset, and cause trouble. Congratulations, in all probability you've succeeded. Happy? Feeling good about yourself? How sad.

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

#172117 - 07/23/07 10:42 AM Re: hk 3480 modification: science or wishful heari [Re: Ajax]
Murph Offline

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6955
Loc: PEI, Canada

Not often my signature really applies, but here I think it does.....
With great power comes Awesome irresponsibility.

#172118 - 07/23/07 01:15 PM Re: hk 3480 modification: science or wishful heari [Re: 2x6spds]
zhimbo Offline

Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 138
Loc: Hanover, New Hampshire
"Charts rule. Who needs ears. "

I care about ears.

The last time this sort of discussion came up, I practically begged for any and all valid, blind *listening* tests. (You know - listening. Done with ears).

The only ones presented basically fell into the "no detectable differences" column. You presented none, but instead preferred to present caricatures and strawmen: just like now!

So I'll take both ears and charts, and BOTH sources of data seem to point to the same conclusion.

But I'm always open to new info.

Edited by zhimbo (07/23/07 01:17 PM)

#172119 - 07/23/07 04:05 PM Re: hk 3480 modification: science or wishful heari [Re: zhimbo]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16437
Loc: Ben Lomond, California
Well said, zhimbo. What 2x6 fails to remember every time this discussion arises is that the people he's railing against -- us scientific types -- wholeheartedly believe that ears are the best measuring instrument when it comes to determining whether amp A sounds better than amp B. The catch is that you need to keep your eyes and brain (which is full of conscious and unconscious bias) out of the equation by listening without seeing or knowing which device you're listening to.
I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you.

#172120 - 08/03/07 03:31 AM Re: hk 3480 modification: science or wishful heari [Re: rhinemaiden1]
RickSean Offline

Registered: 07/20/07
Posts: 7
Fascinating responses I have been reading. Basically, what I am hearing is that as long as the wattage is appropriate for the speakers you are driving, it doesn’t matter what type of equipment you have. Interesting way of looking at things, considering that all players and receivers, not to mention speakers, have different inherent sound characteristics. Although, from some of your comments, I would assume that some of you just look at the price tag and wattage and as long as the unit plays music, you call that good, and discount any sound difference that you hear between brands as being “wishful hearing.” You can try to convince yourself all you want about how speakers other units that have certain advantageous measurements should all sound great, but the truth of the matter is that not everything that measures out well, will sound great. I’ve listened to many speakers that ficticiously went down to 20-17 hz, but I would say they were lucky to go down to 50 hz maybe. These speakers were from a number of major high-end manufacturers btw. Measurements are good, but unless the unit or speakers sound good when you listen to it, then it is meaningless. Many high-end pieces and speakers measure out great, but then you listen to them and realize that some cheaper pieces of equipment actually sound better to your ears. In all honesty, what your own ears hear is what matters. Will a person buy something that measures out very nicely on paper, but to their own ears sounds terrible? I think not.

I do acknowledge that there are plenty of tweaks out there that may or may not work. Much of it will have to do with a person’s system, as they are often meant to fix certain deficiencies. And some will be downright snake oil. Other tweaks will be too complex and ridiculously elaborate, and yet only offer minimal benefit. And, as I have stated before, many high-end manufacturers produce equipment that may cost quite a bit more, but in reality does not sound a lot better (if at all) than many cheaper manufacturers, which I believe is part of why the high-end audio is shrinking. If you want measurements for my modified HK 3480, they are on that review, but I would hope that some of you would let your ears hear the difference and not fool yourself into thinking that all equipment sounds the same and differences in sound are just an illusion.

Sean and Rick

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