Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo M80, M60, M22 ...and a few abominations in between

I had the pleasure of meeting Jason (jakeman) earlier today. Jason's an all-around nice, soft-spoken, pleasant young man but he and his wife are plagued with a problem. Should they keep their recently purchased M60s, upgrade to M80s, keep their old M22s or maybe create their own frankenspeaker (more on that later )?

Since I have 80s, Jason asked me if he could listen to them to help make up his mind. Always happy to help, I became even happier when he told me he was bringing his 60s and 22s over so that we can satisfy our curiosities. After exchanging pleasantries, we connected the 22s and 80s to the B channel, calibrated the speakers and settled in for three hours of acoustical exploration. It's worth mentioning here that I used pink noise recorded at -10dB for the calibration and I turned the 600 subwoofer off. The speakers were about 8 feet away. The M80 was producing 69dBC at -20dB. The 60 produced that same SPL at -19.5dBC. So there was negligible difference in the sensitivities of the two speakers. We did not run the calibration for the 22s (although we should have) but it's worth pointing out that the 22s have the same sensitivity as the 60s. With the 600 on, the SPL jumps to 81 dBC.

1. Our first match was 80s vs. 60s. We decided to place the 60s on the interior of the 80s. Jason closed his eyes and I mixed the speakers up by switching quickly back and forth between A and B a number of times. Echoes of Incas: Ventana al Sol is a superb track for gauging soundstage, imaging and all audible frequency bands. This track features waterfalls, drums, flutes, guitar and birds chrping and singing all around. Jason already knows the 60s well and he was able to identify them each time. Then I took a turn and confirmed that I know my 80s just as well . The 60s sounded warmer with the mids and highs taking a bit of a back seat. Mids sounded more airy and natural with the 80s and the highs were crisp and clear. The soundstage was more expansive with the 80s although, as we discovered later, this had to do with the fact that the 60s were too close together. Given the widely-spaced waterfalls in this track, speakers are susceptible to localization. The 80s however completely disappeared with the waterfalls sounding very transparent and well outside the 80 boundaries. With the 60s, waterfalls sounded like point sources and the speakers became translucent rather than transparent. The 60s imaged very well but the chirping and singing birds sounded like they were being somewhat muffled. We both preferred the clear, crisp more forward sound of the 80s over the warmer, more laid back sound of the 60s. Now when we say forward, we don't mean in your face. What we mean is that relative to the 60s, the sound was less recessed and that to us, was an incredibly good thing. We both agreed that while the 60s were very good, the 80s were that much better.



2. The second bout was 60s vs. 22s. The pairing was very distinguishable. The 22s sounded very clear and very crisp but were missing warmth even with the 600 turned on. The sound was forward but not objectionably so. The over-all effect was too thin for my liking but I believe Jason enjoyed it. We both agreed that the 60s sounded more natural and that we'd like to see the qualities of the 60s and M22s combined. If I had to choose between the two, I would take the 60 as it more closely approximated musicality. As for Jason, I think he remained undecided at this point.

3. The third scrimmage was 80s vs. 22s. This was really a no contest. The 22's crispness and clarity was embodied in the 80 without the 22's lack of warmth. We both agreed the 80s were far superior.



4. Now this is where it gets interesting. It turns out that Jason and his wife liked the warmer sound of the 60s but preferred the cleaner, clearer, crisper more forward sound of the 22s. So Jason decided to see if he could marry the attributes of the two and create...



...the Jasonstein abomination! Could the M80 take on this beast? Well it turns out that this is a beauty in beast's clothing. Axiom's true flagship electro-acoustic transducer consists of something created by a mechanic. Jason should get royalties . We both unequivocally agreed that M82s are cleaner, clearer, crisper and more transparent than their shorter albeit better looking brother. I now wanted to trade up to 60s and 22s! JohnK and his tastes for classical music surfaced in our discussions at this point. John, you have 3/7 of the speaker you need. Without a 60 to support your 22s, you are cheating yourself out of a more realistic experience.

5. So if an M82 is better than an M80, guess who thought that an M102 may be a good idea? That's right. If Jason can create his own beast, then I, being an engineer and all, should be able to build a much better monster. Behold, the Mojostein!!!









Have any of you ever heard the saying "to engineer is human"? It means that engineers are human too and like humans, they also make mistakes. With the Mojostein, I found out that I was more human than most. Sure, it sounded big and bold. But then again so does King Kong. Speakers need some finesse and refinement of which this juggernaut had none. The soundstage collapsed between the speakers and the centre image shot forward in an unnatural manner. As Mary Shelley said, "How I...came to think of, and to dilate upon, so very hideous an idea?". Perhaps, in a larger room, with wider spacing and longer listening distance, this behemoth would exude some class and grace.

What was perhaps most interesting about this arrangement was the fact that the 60s sounded very similar to the 80s. We also got my wife (the lovely musician) involved and she totally disliked the goliath but found it difficult to decide between the flipped, "floating" 60s and the 80s. I twisted her arm (gently) and she conceded she liked the mellowness of the 80s better. I would have to agree with her on that. By this time, Jason was dreaming of M82s so I don't think he cared much either way.

6. We then decided to listen to M102s . As we found out earlier, more is not necessarily better. The couple was certainly very clear but we found the centre image was "weird". We even tried shifting the M22 towards the back wall to no avail. This couple has no future together.



7. We then positioned the 60s to the outside of the 80s. And this formed the first friendly rift between Jason and me. Jason distinctly heard a much wider soundstage (a foot or more) with the 60s. I didn't hear a difference but the waterfalls were localized to the 60s whereas they were transparent on the 80s. This new position did not affect the 60s tone.



We also listened to Diana Krall: Love Scenes, Eric Clapton: Unplugged and The Eagles: Farewell Tour I DVD. Vocals were mellow with the 60 and the 80 with the 80 sounding more natural, airy, up front (in a very, very good way) and live. Jason also felt the power of the 600 during the U-571 depth charge scene. I wish I had snapped a picture of him as he sat there, immersed in the entire experience with sheer terror in his eyes :-). Incidentally, another friend of mine came over yesterday and he had a very similar experience. His heart was apparently pounding.

So while I don't want to speak for Jason, my conclusions are that while no one will go wrong with M22s, greater realism and warmth at the expense of clarity and sharpness are right around the corner with M60s. For those that have the room for M60s and are willing to part with a few more greenbacks, M80s offer no compromise. But at this point, why not pair the 60s with the 22s and enjoy warmth along with maximum clarity, sharpness and transparency.

Jason and I had a very entertaining afternoon and unfortunately my Denon survived the whole experience. It's wonderful that busy people can get together to share interests. We concluded we need to re-convene and this time with a larger group. Maybe we'll meet sooner than we think .

P.S. Sorry for the lack of numbers and formulas. I decided to just chill out for once .

Nice post, Mojo. Most everyone around here seems pretty decent, so I look forward to the day I meet some of my fellow board members... and create monsters with them. I wouldn't exactly call that just chilling out. You were freaking out in a different way is all.

Very good, Tex and Jason. Can it be assumed that a use of the Axiom trade-in program, involving M80s for M60s plus M22s is in the offing? Oh darn, it doesn't work that way, does it?

Putting it all together, it's fairly clear that your inadequate ceiling prevented hearing what should be the best of all: the M162.

Good stuff, Tex! But, I think you have your "Jakes" mixed. "Jakeman" is actually a gentleman named John who lives in Toronto. I believe you got together with Jason who is "Jakewash".

P.S. Never did hear from Craig. Apologies.

Nice write-up, Tex! Thanks for sharing. That M80/60 combo looks kinda intimidating.

Jack, you're right but I shouldn't tell you what you already know . My apologies to both Jakes. As for the rating sheet, I am sure we'll have more opportunities in the future.

Hi Sean,

I was pretty worried that the M60 would come crashing down on my TV. What would I do then? Maybe I'd have to buy a bigger one .

nice right up!

NOw that I have been with the M22s for a long time, I think I would have a hard time going to the M60s, as Jason cited, he is used to the crispness of the M22s highs.

My advise for Jason would be to go with the M80s, which has the elements of both 60s and 22s. The only problem is that they are freaking beasts (in size).

Sounds like it was fun, and props for a great writeup. I've never heard the 22's but your description of the 60's vs the 80's is exacltly how I felt when I traded up, you explained very well what I couldn't seem to put into words about their different qualities, Thanks.

Very enjoyable and valuable review! Thanks so much!

Well, I guess it is my turn. I really won't add much as Mojo said it all very well and it was a pleasure to meet him.

I had already listened to the M82(60/22combo) at my own house, just not in this configuration(on top of the M60), and was extremely pleased with the sound and it was this cleaner fuller sound that prompted me to contact Mojo to see what an 80 sounded like. I suspected the M80 sounded more like my M22 and my suspicions were correct. The M80 is a near perfect blend of the M22 and M60. If I had to buy a only one set of speakers it would now be the M80s. They have all the crispness and clarity of the m22 and the fuller/richer sound of the M60. The M60s more laid back upper mids and vocals make them a wonderfull smooth sounding speaker, just not clear enough for what I have become accustomed to. Although the louder I play them the more the uppers and vocals do seem to come to life, but still not as well as the M80s nor my M22s.

I was very happy to get to hear my M22s paired with an outstanding Subwoofer, however the sound still was not as warm nor full, as the M60s or the M80s. I still feel the best speaker I have heard is the M60/M22 combination, all the clarity I am used to and the warmth of the M60.

The M80s I felt were a little(marginally) too crisp the louder it was played. The M60 would tone down/smooth the mids and highs a little when paired up with the M22 and the louder I play this combo the better it sounds.

Now my wife had an interesting thing to say when I mentioned I think I want to send the M60's back. She brought up a very good point, the M80s would still make bad CDs sound very bad and that I have noted the bad ones are not as harsh/poor sounding on the M60s. She said I might want to keep the M22/M60 combo and run them as A/B as I have now and when I listen to any bad CDs, simply turn off the M22s and listen with the M60s. Have I ever mentioned I REALLY love my wife, she is one smart lady.

Although I am still undecided at this point, as I now will have to buy some more speakers for upstairs if I keep the M60s.....hmmm is that a bad thing? M3s here we come ....wait, wait, wait, that M80 sounded pretty good on its own .....no, no, no, too big for upstairs, this is my wifes realm, must.......stick........ to....... M3s...... no....no...no....M80s down M22s up and new EP500.....

Now that EP600 is beyond anything I have heard, so tight and crisp yet will shake the fillings out of your head and if turned right up could be used for demolition. It has no boominess I could hear, even during the depth charge scene in U-571. The terror on my face was due to the fact I thought the house was going to come down on us! I wish we had the SPL meter going it had to be well above/near 110db. during the whole scene, absolutely amazing.

Ok so I added more than I thought. Again, I must say I had a GREAT time and it was a pleasure to meet Tex. I also forgot to tell Tex that the avatar is most definitely a dog now with the eyes moving around.

Interesting thread. I've been using M22s for years, and I just put in an order for the M60s to use in our new house. While I've loved their sound, I've always felt a little something was lacking in my M22's, notably some fullness in the sound. I think the M60s will fit the bill perfectly for me, and I think I will appreciate their slightly "warmer" nature. We'll see.

If not, you could always run them together!

Quote:

---

You peaked my curiosity and I just had to find out for myself what SPLs we were hitting. It wasn't that bad actually. 111 dBC peaks with an average of about 105 during the explosions. I bet if I had my stairway closed off I'd be hitting close to 120.

---

I wasn't too far off!

I did have one more thought about the M80/M60 combo as you and I at the time described it as weird and we lost the imaging etc. I found that it was a layered image and as we backed way from the monsters the sound started to blend a little better but it still appeared to be layered. There was a low frequency closer to the ground and then the mids and highs and then there was another layer of low frequency above the highs which I am sure was destroying the imaging. The M60 just has too much bass to have them standing on the heads like we did.

I now have to get my VP100 and VP150 review happening but the kids keep asking me to play Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess with them instead, not that it is hard to get me to participate.

Quote:

---

You peaked my curiosity and I just had to find out for myself what SPLs we were hitting. It wasn't that bad actually. 111 dBC peaks with an average of about 105 during the explosions. I bet if I had my stairway closed off I'd be hitting close to 120.

---

What was the wattage required to hit these peaks?

1.25 watts unclipped if I did my math correctly.

Oh no...not 1.25W. This time Mojo turned it up .

It's hard to say what the total power was because the sub was contributing so much to the action and I've never characterized the sub's power. I've only characterized the M80s and with the -10 setting on my Denon, the 80s were sinking less than 30W nominal. The centres and surrounds were on too of course.

I could have certainly driven the sub harder too but I think the peaks of those explosions were pretty much driving it to its upper limits.

Jason, that's a good description of what we heard and, like you say, it's because of the woofers. Darn, we should have laid the 60 on top of the M80 on its side .

Or, placed immediately side-by-side, so as to not have the compromised horizontal dispersion of an M60(or M80) on its side.

We tried that in #7 but I didn't like it.

I believe John means to have them running in parallel, as we did with the M22/M60 and when we had the M60 on top of the M80, we never did run them in parrallel while side by side...DOH! I guess we just have to get together one more time to try it this way.

I would really love to do an EP500 EP600 shootout. Depending on the room size, I really do not think there will be that much difference.

After reading the review again, I suspect (with high hopes) that Axiom is already on the path of introducing another tower speaker with 3 5.25" woofers, 2 6.5" woofers, and 2 tweeters. I would HAVE to buy that tower if they made it, just sounds too crisp to be true!

I think room size does make a difference. Although they are close in specs, I noticed a fairly good difference between the two in my larger room...

I agree that room size makes a big difference, the trick is determining that magic room size number that will benefit the use of an EP600.

Great post! Real world fun... And some interesting findings also.. Great to see members of the site hooking up to do these type of things ...

Avdude!

Actually the very last thing we did was run the 60s and 80s in parallel. But you didn't listen...only I did. I didn't like it because it sounded like 4 waterfalls instead of 2. The centre image was wonderful but all of the other images (birds chirping, etc) were smeared. But sure...I'm game for trying it again.

BTW, in November I get to hear an Orion. I'm really anxious to see how this will sound compared to the Axioms.

I listened to floor-standing and bookshelf Missions today. I don't know the model number (but I am going to find out) but they sounded absolutely horrible. Highs were non-existent, mids were recessed so bad that they were almost not there and the bass sounded muffled like it was coming from another room.

Sure, Jason and Tex; they'd have to be run simultaneously in parallel to create a horizontal M140 to compare to the vertical M140.

So when are we getting together again? Isn't that what Thanksgivings are for ?

Friday nights are slower here at work, just bring them to the shop, we won't run out of room, nor disturb the neighbors.

I seem to recall liking the M72 that Peter, Adam and I put together quite some time ago, but not so much the M133--probably a little much, plus I'm not sure we ever played the M133 with the M50s correctly wired. Fascinating read, guys... wish I could have been there!

I'm sure the M72 sounded pretty good as the 50s are mellow and the 22s are accurate. Hmmm...we should try wiring them out of phase next time to see how they sound :-).

Ok JohnK and Mojo, I tried the M82 with the straps off the M60 and running only the 6 1/2s. The sound was extremely neutral. Vocals were not forward except on a few cds I tried. Some of my poorer cds the vocals were still a little behind/under the music, suggesting the cd mix is the culprit and that the speaker is very neutral.

I tried just one M82 strapless to see if I could hear a difference between them and it was hard to distinguish between the 2 as they blended quite well from my seated position. If I moved in front of each speaker I could hear the strapless losing out to the strapped M60 which gave a more forward vocal/mid sound, which it should with 1 extra mid and tweeter. I could hear vocals coming through on the destrapped M60 which I will guess is why the full M60 sounds smoother, yet recessed compared to the M22. The fact the M60 only has 1 mid and not 2 adds to the effect as well.

The soundstage was not a problem, only slightly more narrow and it was a little higher with just the M22s and M60s (strapless), but it should have been, the M22s were sitting on top of the M60s.

As I prefer the forward sound I liked the fully strapped configuration better.

Next up M22 vs VP150/100 as centers.

That's very interesting. So what do you like better for poorer CDs? The M60s or the strapless M82s (M82sl)?

You know that the next thing you have to do is develop a truth table, eh? So that it's easy for members to see all the combinations visually.

Is your wife ready to dump you yet :D? You can come here and live in my basement with my Axioms as long as you promise to maintain my vehicles :).

Heres Mojos missing smiley.

LOL. Someone at Axiom hates me and took away my smilies :-).

The M60s I think are still better for the poor cds, they hide the imperfection better. The full M82 is still the best for everything else, great detail and rich/warm sounding.

A table? Where's all the fun in that? Research, research, research.

My wife is Ok so far, but my 4yr old is getting a little annoyed, he says it is too loud for him most times I listen while we play, its usually around 55-60db initially, then I end up turning it down.

You can't let the little one get in the way of progress.

He is in preschool 3 afternoons a week, so I listen instead of sleep, at least for the next little while. I have given him my ear muffs, but he doesn't like them either; so 3 days a week for 2hrs, not too bad, as long as I don't fall asleep and miss picking him up!

Hey Mojo, I just realized all I did with the M82 strapless, was turn my M82 into an M80 minus one tweeter. Care to try disconnecting one of your tweeters and have a listen? I am curious if it makes them more neutral than forward. If so I may go with the M80's....

How exactly did you do that? When you unstrap them you separate the woofers from the mids/tweets.

I'll try to find some time later today to try. Are the tweets quick disconnect?

Very interesting thread guys! I'm curious to the results from this as well. Any luck Mojo?

Anybody with the M82 setup use burnt CDs? I don't mean copied CDs, but rather MP3 or wav files. I like Mojo's suggestion for the M82's but I am worried about the imperfections I experience with virtually every burnt CD. I'm afraid the M22's will reveal the aforementioned, as they are not a commercially recorded CD.

The driver numbers become almost the same: M80 2 6 1/2, 2 5 1/4 and 2 tweeters, the M82 strapless is now running the same number of drivers less that one tweeter. the M22 has the one tweeter and 2 5 1/4 mids and the M60 now lends its 2 6 1/2. So I think they might sound very similar just as the M80 and M82 sounded very similar with the edge going to the M82.

Wheelz, I tried burnt MP3 cds a while ago with my M22s and they did sound somewhat hollow, although I have since found the highest possible bit rate yields decent results, but still less than CD quality. They still seemed a little hollow to me. The M22s usually reveal badly recorded material in the mid to high ranges, the speakers speacialty range, with MP3s removing some of the highs, as we are not supposed to be able to hear it that well, tends to leave the music a little lifeless to me. The M82 might liven it up a bit with its lower range, but I no longer use MP3 material with my system if I can help it. I will try some later and let you know what I find.

This may sound like a joke, but it is not. LAME has many settings allowing the user to have fast conversion or higher quality. I found that iTunes, for example, is using a fast-algo that yields not that good results. MP3 coming from emusic.com, for example, are VBRs scanned at low speed. Those files sounds very good on my system compared to 320Kpbs with iTunes.

Settings for emusic.com "To encode the files on eMusic, we used LAME version 3.92. The import option that was used is -alt-preset standard"

Thanks for the tip. I don't download much, prefer to have the real thing here and then rip it myself.

I use a program called dBpoweramp. As long as you have the AC3 codec(Dolby Digital) installed on your computer, you can convert MP3s etc. into Dolby Digital format.

Jason,

As I was driving away this morning I realized how the strapless 80s were like 80s minus a tweet. I felt pretty foolish :-).

I haven't had a chance yet. Hopefully later tonight.

Another awesome tip, I will have to try!Thanks

Don't you know you are supposed to try these things out first, then go to work, where are your priorities?

Who said anything about work? I'm taking my son to the skateboard park :-).

Jason, you're correct about the relative number of drivers in the M80 compared with the "unstrapped" M82, but keep in mind that the M22 mid/woofers in the M82 continue down into the mid/upper bass to at least 60Hz, resulting in more drivers being active in that bass area than there are with the M80.

I guess that could be why the M82 sounds smoother then the M80 as there is more blending going on, but not enough to destroy the soundstage.

I am going to hold out for Axioms next flagship speaker (the M100, with 2 tweets, 3 mids, and 2 woofers).

After thinking about the M82 that you guys made, I find it hard to believe that Axiom is not already aware of this superiority and has already designed an M100

I am sure Axiom is very aware of it. I doubt the next model will only have 7 drivers though. I'd be shooting for at least 12 :-).

a 12 driver array would sound like your muddled mess of the M140 you guys made...:)

The sound quality was entirely Jason's fault. I wanted to do some major surgery on his 60s but he wouldn't let me :).

Mojo,

Try spacing the period and the smiley face, it should work.

.

Thanks, Wid .

Mojo found his smiley's back.

I too would like to see an M100, I am just so torn with the desire for my M22s up stairs and simply enjoying ther accurracy I had but fuller sound with a set of M80s downstairs, then I play a bad cd and I flip again! Maybe after Wednesdays General Audio testing session with Mojo, I might have an answer as I really am running out of time. My wife just shakes her head at my indecisiveness over this.

Are you trying to tell us the smileys got their mojo workin'?

A larger speaker, with more drivers, will deliver superior sound reproduction relative to what is currently available assuming it is properly designed. But this kind of speaker wouldn't be for everyone. With the exception of an electrostatic design, a speaker such as this would probably need to be located at least 6 feet away from a rear wall and listeners would have to be at least 10 feet away. 7 foot ceilings may be challenged too. And then of course there is the expense factor. It would give us a good excuse to move to a larger house though .

During the tour at the Axiom 25th anniversary picnic there were some interesting things laying around behind stairs and under building materials. Other things that looked similar to current products were out in full view and being tested. Unless you looked closely you would have missed some of the things they were trying. Some of these products came out already while others must not have panned out as expected or were not a significant improvement.

As we all know, Axiom is always trying to come up with new innovative products and improving on there's and others products. Lately it seems they have a ton of things in the works and are still trying to get them all out. I can't wait to see what's next or if something I may have already seen eventually comes out....

Hello All,
I would be very interested in a "M100" or what ever Axiom would call a taller (more drivers) speaker. I know that the trend is to smaller less conspicuous speakers, but I still prefer larger tower speakers like my current Infinity PFR's
(54" tall).
I realize that, at this point, it is just speculation but does anyone think Axiom will release a larger "flagship" speaker anytime soon? My PFR's are over 10 years old now and I'm looking to upgrade.
I was intrigued by the "M82's" described here but would prefer an factory made taller tower.
I don't want to wait for "years" and right now the other speakers that I'm considering are the Paradigm Signatures. Much more expensive but more of what I'm looking for.
Thanks in advance for any replys,
Brian

Maybe you should look at AV123 Line Source.

Line Source

There was a mention a little while ago regarding a larger speaker, but I don't think it was a priority over the amp and audiobytes. Of course, it's conjecture on my part, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was omething coming down the pike....

I do believe there is a 3 x 6.5" woofer, 3 x 5.25" woofer and 2 tweeter model coming out...this is all guessing at the moment.

Yes, this is heresy....

I think you mean hearsay... unless you really, really don't want them to come out with a new speaker!

I will make my standard (incorrect) prediction that we're not going to see this.

Actually, the spelling mistake that prompted the "heresy" post has been sneakily corrected!

Oops... I thought you had made the mistake, not Hutz!

That'll teach me to skim posts.

And that'll teach me not to use "quotes"!

HEHEHEHEHEHE

Glock,

Axiom has developed the A1400 for one reason and one reason only. To power the A40s that will be coming out next year. Why are they called A40s? Because they will have 40 drivers.

Of course I could be wrong but it's nice to dream .

Geez. You got me going for a few seconds!

Those photos are dangerous. They'll have me wondering what two stacked M80 pairs will sound like.

Thanks to everyone, esp Mojo and Jason for this thread. My first Axioms (60's, 8,'s, 150 and a 350) should arrive in another week or so (smilies don't cut it here!). Reading a lot about the 80's, I was wondering if I should change my order.

Happening upon this informative thread changed that. I won't order 22's right away (spent enough lately), but I'm already scheming...

I listen to plenty of 'bad' recordings. Live music is almost always my preference, generally more energetic, and we get a lot of stuff from non-commercial channels.

I'm sure I'll be satisfied for a little while...

Scheming onward and upward!

Thanks!

Welcome to the family and your welcome, glad we actually helped someone.

Welcome indeed. Terrapin Station is a great album. I need to put it on my re-acquisition list.