Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater M22s, VP150, VP100 as centres...oh, and M44s

What better way to spend a Friday afternoon than play with various Axioms...this time at Jakewash's (Jason's) house. The theme today was centres. I'll keep this short and sweet so that I don't miss my Friday night pool game at my buddy's:

We should disclose that Jason's SPL meter went missing so we could not calibrate the SPL for the different configurations. Here are the configs we tried and our ruminations. Jason will be posting photos most likely tomorrow:

1. VP100 above the TV: sounded like it was coming from the TV. Clear and natural. Timbre changed as we sweeped 45 deg off axis but the dialogue was certainly anchored to the centre. Recommended.

2. VP150 above the TV: same as above but louder. The 100 had similar sound to an M22 whereas the 150 sounded more like an M60. Recommended.

3. VP150 on top/VP100 on bottom: Same comments as 1 with the exception that the dialogue moved ever so slightly upward. You really have to listen critically to hear this. More clear than 1 or 2. You can do it but it's not the most aesthetically pleasing.

4. Single M22 oriented vertically: Tremendous on and off-axis response! Center dialogue was anchored. Unfortunately, it sounded like a column of sound running down the vertical centre of the TV. We don't recommend this.

5. Single M22 oriented horizontally below the screen: The woofers were pointing to the right side and it sounded like someone was throwing their voice to the right during off-axis listening. We don't recommend this at all.

6. Dual M22s on each side of the TV: very clear and very natural but the centre image was "phasey" even on-axis. We don't recommend this at all.

7. M44s: brought to you from the same team that tested M82s . This consisted of two M22s laid side-to-side across the bottom of the TV. The first attempt was WWTTWW. From what I remember, that sounded fine head on but didn't sound right when we panned. The second attempt was TWWWWT. Oh my! Did this ever sound sweet! The response was consistent during panning and very clear with a nice wall of centre sound. Highly recommended.

If I missed anything, I am sure Jason will correct me. I also wanted to try M22s on the sides, VP150 on top and VP100 on the bottom all in parallel but Jason wimped out . Too bad we didn't have an A1400 to drive that load. We wanted to try his 60s as centers too (horizontally ) but we ran out of time.

I also wanted to mention that I was floored with the quantity of the bass out of Jason's m60s. Everyone always talks about the powerful bass out of the 60s and 80s but I had no idea why people felt that way. In my 4,000 cubic foot room, I certainly don't get that kind of performance out of my 80s. But his room is less than half the volume of mine and I'm sure that makes all the difference. In my opinion, this still doesn't mean that you don't need a sub but it's nice to know you could live without a sub for a while and not feel like you're missing too much.

So thanks to Jason for the use of his facilities. We now have an Axiom Audio Field Test lab in Calgary's northeast and southwest . Now I need to upgrade to M82s and M44s.

pictures?

Just can't wait, eh? Maybe you should go play with your sub .

Nicely done once again Mojo.

Sorry I am making everyone wait, I had to run off to get my son before we could try to blow my little Denon apart. This cut our session much shorter than I would have liked and now I am at work.

I will add pics and my thoughts early this morning when I get home. I may even throw together the VP220.

Just wondering how you hooked up the M22's?

Thanks for the fascinating and insightful research you're doing. I've been using my M22s as dual centers but the sound just didn't impress me that much compared to a single VP100 above. If I could chase the wife out of the media center, I'd try the M44 configuration right now! You've got me thinking about trying an MVP122 - dual vertical M22s plus the VP100 above.

Joe, that sounds interesting, I can set that up very easily and let you know my thoughts, as I have the VP100 as well. So that would be about a 3ohm load, I hope the Denon is up to it.

Alex we had them hooked up in parallel from the amp, like any other dual channel center that others are running on this forum.

This could be a dumb question, but how did you do the Parallel Wiring? Do you just wire both speakers normally and then take the two Pos wires, twist together put in Pos on amp, then take the two Neg wires, twist together and put in Neg on the amp?

Mo and Jason, shortly after I got my M22s a little over five years ago I did some of the experiments you ran(not with any Axiom center). That and some previous checks with other small main speakers are the basis(along with articles tending to confirm my observations)for the suggestions I make here about centers.

My first comment is that your findings in 4. describe an ideal center speaker and that's the type of setup(not necessarily M22s)that I use and recommend.

I tried and agree with your "M44" findings in 7. If dual horizontal M22s are used, the better configuration is TMMMMT, which can be said to be somewhat analogous to the TMMMT of the VP150. I didn't think that there was a compelling reason(especially considering expense)to prefer it to 4.

Alex,

That connection scheme works for paralleling.

Joe,

It would be great if you can give us your opinion on the MVP144.

Jason,

Can you also set up the MVP294 ?

That's a 1.85 Ohm load.

Hi John,

We found that the single, vertical M22 created a "column" of sound instead of a "wall" of sound. I think you are saying the column of sound is the more "correct" effect out of the two. But we found the wall of sound to be the preferable effect as the column sounded too narrow.

I guess I could when the M80s arrive to replace the M60s in the mains deptartment!

You think my Amp will support that low? Do I get yours if it does go up in smoke! Or better yet Axiom sends out an A1400 for testing purposes!PLLease???

I know mine should just shut down but you never now.

So, do you think that running 2 x M22's are that much better and worth the money over the VP150?

The 294 is 15/100/22/22. I think you need some sleep .

Alex,

I really do. The 16% more is definitely worth it. Note that it is a 4 Ohm load though compared to a 6 Ohm load for the 150. And the 150 is a little narrower and does have a different geometry so make sure you examine all of these aspects for your application.

I have to much to do and only 24hrs to do it in, sleep is an inconvenience, but obviously needed.

Interesting, though I must confess I am glad that no of you are genetic engineers...

One thing that is interesting Tex, is that I get fabulous bass out of my 80's. As you know my room is bigger than yours, almost double.

On many occasions when I've auditioned my 80's in home for people, we turn off the sub so they can just hear the 80's. Many times they ask me if I turned the sub off, if that gives you any idea of the bass my 80's are giving me.

I don't know if it is treatments, placement, or what, but bass has always been killer when I had 60's as well..

Thanks Randy. It's useful for me to know that. I wonder if the opening I have going up the stairs is the killer for me or is it the lack of treatments? I suppose I can try to make a temporary wall for that stair opening and see how the response changes.

I too get incredible bass from M80. If it were only for music, I don't think I would have even bothered with a sub (but explosions are explosions and deep breathing T-Rex are deep breathing T-Rex).

And what is the volume of your room, Eric. Does it have any openings to other areas? Any treatments?

The living room + dining room is about 14x22. The HT is in one portion of it (say 14x12) with my new back surrounds infringing on the dining room (actually touching the dining table--thank god I don't have WAF problems!).

There is a corridor leading to the back rooms, the kitchen and my office on the side so the living room is not truly closed (I could not just shut a door), but at the same time, openings to the rest of the appartment are they equivalent of three opened doors so it is not wide open either.

If a go to my bedroom (the fartest from the M80) and playing some cello-intensive work (like Bach's cello suites for example or one of Schubert's late string quartets), the bass remains stong and clean even at moderate level.

When I first installed the M80, there was actually way too much bass. I then moved them from the wall (in great part because of Alan's recommendations) and it became "better", but still strong. It took me a while to remember how live deep instruments actually sounds and was then stunned by how accurate those little CDs can actually be with the right equipment.

Thanks. And how tall is your ceiling? It also sounds like you have a lot of furniture, right?

8.5 feet high. On the furniture side, it is mostly speakers!
I just have a coach, coffee table, dining table and chairs. But I do have two irregular areas that makes the room less bright than it could have been. So, I guess there is a lot of small obstacles (table and chair legs), but I doubt the room could be really called "loaded" (altough I am not an expert).

I tried the EP-500 with all 3 "trim" settings, and the only one that sounded good was the FLAT one.

Tex,

My room at the other end opens into another section or our basement that is just as big as the rec room, and also has stairs over leading upstairs.

Thanks guys. Randy, did you have good bass out of your 80s even with the Denon acting as your amp?

My media room is in a shared space with our home daycare, so during the week I use a basic set up with M22 mains, VP100 center and QS8 surrounds. On the weekend, the M60s come out as mains and the M22s become the dual centers with the VP100 disconnected.

Here's my set up for the MVP122 and MVP144 options. What's the best way to wire the 3 centers? Should I add the VP100 in parallel with the 2 M22s? My receiver is a Denon AVR3803.

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Love the entertainment unit. Must be a custom job, right?

Thanks. I made it myself. Woodworking is my other expensive hobby.

Joe,

That really is a beautiful piece of work.

The combined load of three in parallel like you suggested would be about 3 Ohms. I very much doubt the Denon would have a problem and if it does, it should gracefully shut down the centre channel. If you plan on trying this, start with a lower volume and gradually increase it. Let us know what you find out please.

It would also be interesting to try the two M22s in series with the VP100 in parallel with that series pair. Two M22s in series should produce as much SPL as a single 100. This combination will result in roughly a 5 Ohm load.

From what I recall, the bass was good as well with the Denon. Maybe if I have time I'll switch the cables and bring back memories.

I will say that with the addition of the monoblocks the bass has improved, contrary to what some will say. It just seems cleaner, tighter, etc. whatever that means.

OK, I finally got around to uploading the pics
The M44 after the awfull first try with the WWTTWW design

As they were pointing slightly up and we really liked the sound, we decided they needed to be moved to the shelf. We then had a few heart attacks as we moved them up to the top shelf for a more realistic comparison.

The speakers nearly fell a few times as I tried to prop up the tail ends with some blocks to get them pointing down from that lofty perch. If I were to keep them up there I would use a little rubber strip under that front lip to keep them from slipping.
This configuration truly does have that certain something that the VP series lacks. They appear to be as clear as the VP100 and still play lower than the VP150 but the VP150 had a very slight rumble? to it for some voices but the VPM44(better designation?) was just as deep but smoother. Gandalf's voice came through a little clearer to me than the VP150 but just as deep.

Joe have you tried yours put closer together like in the picture? Any difference? More centered?

A pic of the M22s vertically beside the TV


The VP150 was disconnected at the time but I will try it later today for the VP194. The dual verticals were just not right. The narration at the beggining of LOTR would slide between the 2. Her voice would be on both speakers but would peak on one speaker and not the other, making her voice appear to slide betwen the 2.

I am still searching for my SPL meter, I appologize to all for the lack of technical details during this somewhat impromptu session. We both had a little spare time and Mojo was at this end of town, it just came together rather quickly, but I did just use it the other day.

Have you tried the M22s horizontal with one above WWT and one below TWW?

I did a little center channel experimentation this afternoon. Keep in mind that I'm not as proficient with critical listening skills as some of you seem to be. I used Pirates of the Caribbean, Curse of the Black Pearl. I selected a couple of different scenes, focusing on dialog. I should mention that my center channel is +2dB (personal preference due to years of abuse of my ears). I kept the volume down a bit so I wouldn't have to ask Mojo to buy me a new receiver.

1. VP100 - good basic center channel. I never had any issues with this speaker until I tried some of the other configurations. I don't have a VP150, but I suspect it would be an improvement over the VP100. For all tests, this speaker was directly above the TV and aimed slightly down at the listening area.

2. Vertical M22s - Notwithstanding what Mojo and Jakewash decided, I found this to be a big improvement over the VP100. The sound was much fuller and richer, and seemed to fill the screen. I didn't notice any significant degradation as I moved away from the sweet spot. I tried the speakers pointing straight ahead and then toed in slightly. Toeing in made a small but noticable improvement at the sweet spot.

3. VPM122 (Vertical M22s + VP100) - WOW! Adding the VP100 made a huge difference in the depth and clarity. The screen seemed to be enveloped in sound. All of the individual speakers completely disappeared. This was my favorite configuration by far.

4. M44 (TWWWWT) - I found this arrangement to be distracting, partly due to the look of it, but the location of the speakers was much more evident than with the VPM122. It was better than the VP100 alone, but sounded a little harsh and punchy. Separating the speakers was more pleasing than with them pushed together. Could it be because they were aimed slightly up rather than directly at the listening area?

5. VPM144 - Adding the VP100 helped considerably, but I still found myself focusing on the equipment rather than the sound (to quote a resident expert). Compared to the VPM122, I was underwhelmed by this arrangement.

I'll stick to the vertical M22s just because it's much easier for me to make the weekend changeover. I also have to try the VPM122 cranked up a little more when I get braver.

Thanks for the input. I don't suppose you were able to use an SPL meter to adjust the levels as each configuration does give you differing levels. We obviously didn't as I am still searching for mine.......

Our issues with vertical M22s could be an effect that only shows up with that movie and/or my room dynamics or possibly they were too close together?

For the VPM44 were the speakers resting at the front edge of the stand? There might have been some reflections happening. The angle could have a detrimental effect as well.

I figured the VPM122 would be the best as the VP100 fills the void we heard and should eliminate that phasing effect.

I also find the VP100/VP150 top and bottom to be very enveloping. The VP100 cleans up the 150.

I may end up keeping the VP150 after all and use it in a VPM172 or ist a VPM194? set up and sell the VP100....Naw too much fun switching things around to sell. Have to stop listening to M62s and get some movies going to try the 3way center.

I considered that there might be some reflection with the M44. The countertop on the base cabinets sticks out quite a bit in front of where the speakers were. Because they were laying on their tapered sides, the speakers were angled up a bit, so reflection was probably minimal.

I didn't have time to do and SPL readings, but you're right, there is definitely a difference in the levels with the different configurations. I'll play around with it some more when I get time. I want to try some music rather than just a movie. There may be some bigger differences with music vocals than spoken dialog.

Like you, I plan on keeping all the various speakers because they're just too hard to part with.

I would have to agree with John. I have not heard the VP100 specifically but i have heard other centres in our home system with the same configuration.
The wider VP150 with end tweeters provided a much wider soundstage and better off-axis presentation than the smaller, driver limited versions with only a single, centre tweeter.
I did not like the M22 as a centre channel either but i am surprised you did not hear any real differences b/w the VP100 and VP150 especially off axis.

The expense of two M22s for this recommended purpose is a bit much. One must also note the extra power issues required to wire and run it.

Sounds like you had a fun time playing with the configurations though. I tried some nifty things awhile back like a vertical VP150 and putting my EP350 on hockey pucks.
I really do not recall why, but i do have pics somewhere.

No extra expense when upgrading It just becomes another option.

Here, try one of these on for size.

As for the EP350 on pucks...

Who was it that said they hated Pics that made you scroll?

I take it you went to pucks to try a downfiring sub. Do you remember anything about it, good or bad? That VP150 looks extremely tall like that.

Any one try M3s on the top and bottom also ?

I watched Raiders of the Lost Ark last night as well as LOTR and I must say that the VPM144 or the VPM194 is the way to go. I tried to distinguish between these 2 setups and about the only difference I could come up with is that the VP150 adds a bit of extra warmth/fullness to the center channel. I noticed no phasing as Mojo and I did with just the dual M22's during the LOTR Narration at the beginning of the movie.

Alas I didn't find my SPL meter either so I cannot confirm how much extra SPL this configuration gives over dual or single center channels. Maybe today.

My little Denon 1804 cranked out the sound with out any trouble at all. I unplugged my sub during LOTR, as the dynamics in that movie are off the scale and it was getting close to 2AM, I didn't want to wake everyone up. The M60's did a great job with the explosions even with the Mains still set to no LFE and crossover at 80hz

In the VPM194 configuration, I take it that the 150 was above, correct?

Mojo, you would be correct sir. I couldn't switch them any easier at the lower position, so I just swapped them out at its normal spot in my setup. A single speaker up there is way easier than the 2 M22s.

I forgot to mention I did wander around my room and found off axis to be better with either of the VPM setups, particularly the VPM194. I also toed out the M22s and that gave a little bit of a locateable sound when off axis to the nearest speaker but no or very little drop out, at least to my ears. When sitting in the sweet spot with the toed out M22s there was no appreciable difference.

I really have to find my meter.

Me! Very happy. One above my SXRD TW and one below WT.

Re: the difference in a room for M60's...
I have two sets, on pair upstairs for stereo in a large living room with cathedral ceilings with open beams. The rear wall is broken up by stairs going upwards around a landing to an open catwalk above. Either side of this is recessed with a door going out on the left and on the right a recessed area leading into the mud/laundry room. The right wall has glass dorrs (always open) leading into a den and the left has a large open area into the kitchen.

I was really afraid of what all this would do to the sound but it it truly amazing. I've since realized its almost a 'church like' design and it just works but without the big echo like sound of a large church. The bass coming from the M60's was so crisp clear and powerful that I took away the little subwoofer from my old setup that I thought I might need to fill the room. People contantly comment on the rich bass coming from the M60s.

Now in my HT room in the basement, it an acoustic nightmare. Much smaller, almost a perfect square, wood floors with just a couch and a coffee table. Most of the walls are still bare and we are still looking for a rug we like. The M60s are still very clear on the highs but the bass is totally lost. It's all my EP500 can do to try recreate the sound I have upstairs. Fortunately, it's up to the task although I still prefer upstairs for it's more relaxing sound quality.

I could easily be a demo house for the differences room accoustics make on a sound system.

You mean to say you don't have good bass out of the 60s anywhere in your basement? I was just thinking that you may be sitting in a null. Have you tried walking around to experience the nulls and troughs?

You mean to say you don't have good bass out of the 60s anywhere in your basement? I was just thinking that you may be sitting in a null. Have you tried walking around to experience the nulls and troughs?

You are very correct Mojo. There is indeed strong bass in parts of the room. For instance, by the time I get strong bass in my sitting location, you wouldn't want to be standing in one of the rear corners because it is too strong there. It is very much dependent on where you are standing and where the sub is.

You can find places in the room where it sounds pretty good and two spots where it's overbearing but unfortunately due to the shape and entrances of the room, the only good place for the couch is about three quarters of the way back and in the middle for left to right. At least it's not dead center.

My sub has been moved to a corner and that has helped quiet a bit from when it was up front between the TV and front speaker. The M60s as fronts are pretty limited to where they are.

I should probably break down and post pictures if only to show the difference between the two rooms.

Pictures would be nice. And sorry about repeating myself. I don't know how that happened.

If you’re going to use twin M22’s as a center in the vertical position, you really need to play with distance between the two. I ran into the same scenario that you described with a somewhat, for lack of a better descriptor, “hollow” center dialogue with them too far apart. With them too close together, they would cancel each other out and have a real narrow sound stage. I tried towing them in, towing them out and found no improvement with either. In my 12’ wide room, I have mine set roughly 30” apart and have no complaints. I did pre-wire for two horizontal centers (one above and one below my screen), and one of these days I plan to buy a couple and give that a try. For the time being, I’m sticking with my twin M22’s for a center. I’ve heard one VP150 and feel the twin M22’s provide a better overall sound than the single VP150.

From the pictures with the two M22’s on either side of the TV, I can guarantee that they are too far apart from my experiments. I’d play with this some more if I were you….. You might just be surprised what you hear.

In my case, I really can't get them any closer together (a small price to pay for a 50" screen). I think toeing them in helped a little. But adding the VP100 into the mix made a dramatic improvement, filling in that hollow spot you mentioned. It seems to me that two horizontal 'center' speakers (as opposed to bookshelf speakers) is probably the ideal configuration. You've gotta believe that Axiom put some thought into designing their center speakers for that specific purpose.

Mike,

Have you tried an M22 horizontally above your screen, and the other M22 situated horizontally below, but opposite array?

Those are my next test configurations.
I went out and bought a new SPL meter today. I was going to order the one Mojo has but I hate waiting and Active Electronics carried this one. I couldn't see much difference other then about $20 more. So I should now be able to do a little more thorough check of the recent configurations.

where'd you get it?

they are up on 32 Ave and 19 st N.E Once I factored in the shipping and misc duty and taxes the cost was only $20 more than the Galaxy Audio one Mojo has from Parts Express.

Yours has an analog output. So you can connect it to a computer to log your data...or it could work in conjunction with an acoustic analysis program. I wish mine had that.

No...that would be a major PITA. Plus, I just don't like the way vert speakers look on their sides. Vanity prevails, I know..pathetic but I put a lot of work in the room's aesthetics and don't want to muddle it up.

you know, you could always put the grille's back on...

They aren't centered on the speaker, nor is the lable.

awwww jeeze.

He's got a point. I wouldn't want to do that, either.

Mojo, as you know our basements are virtually identical, but I have a wall going down my stairs. I have considered removing the wall and building a plexiglass wall so that it allows light into my basement, at the same time limiting sound transfer upstairs. I am not concerned about a really dark room because it is more of an entertainment room rather than a dedicated home theater. I've seen pictures of this being done on the Internet and I like the look. Just a suggestion.

Cam

Cam,

That's an interesting suggestion. I'm not sure how much the plexi would limit it. I'll have to look into that. I have another problem however and it relates to having room to move furniture. Thanks.

I am going to try this "three speaker" center channel, but I don't know how to wire the speakers as mentioned above. I understand how to wire in series/parallel separately but wiring series to parallel is confusing me. I will be using three speakers that produce a 8 ohm load. Will the ohm load be the same?

Please help

I wonder how 2 VP150's side by side would sound. Up that one and do this above and below the display!

Actually, if you have a wide enough display, I would be very curious to hear how 2 M80's would sound horizontally!!!

droooool

I bet two M80s in a TTMMWWWWMMTT arrangement would sound awesome!

Could this be Axiom's next centre ?

>>I bet two M80s in a TTMMWWWWMMTT arrangement would sound awesome!

Hey, my screen is big enough for one of those.

Ian, remember that VP250 I asked for ? Never mind