Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater EP800: Initial Thoughts and Pictures

To those of you who have newly arrived EP800s, have one or more in the mail on the way, or sitting in your house in a box waiting to be plugged in, let's consolidate the thoughts and pictures into this thread.

My initial thoughts and pictures to come soon...

Jason

Ok, while I'm still not adequately prepared to write any sort of review, below are a few pictures to sate your appetites (read: get you off my back) until I have more time to do some more dedicated listening.

Unfortunately most of the pictures I took have as much of me in them as the EP800, so you get some cheesy pictures of me along with the new sub.

Me with the EP-800 (note the taped over "600" labels)



Unboxing the EP-800



Out of the box - high gloss casting reflections on the wall


Close up of the finish (note that's a reflection of my arm on top - the finish is SMOOTH)


New double-sub look


For now the EP-600 is unplugged as I've been trying to isolate the difference in what I'm hearing from using the 800 as opposed to mixing it with the 600 at the same time. I'm still using my small Earthquake sub in the back of the room at the same time to flatten the overall room response. Since I know it doesn't reach anywhere near the depths the 800 is hitting, I'm not too worried about it coloring my opinion of that sub.

Looking forward to hearing the rest of the opinions and seeing other pictures. I'll be back with graphs and more detailed thoughts as soon as I have them.

Jason

I don't know what I am more jealous about, the really cool sub, or the fact you can be comfortable in shorts in early February.

Looking forward to your thoughts on the EP 800.

paul

Whoa!

Now, everybody get off Jason's back so he can write a proper review

Very nice. I eagerly await your impressions. Wish I was there!

That's all real nice looking, but what are you planning to do for real bass? I say get rid of the chairs and add a few more subs. That should do it.

Movie night at myrison house tonight!

I can't even imagine the performance you will get from those 800's in your room. Very nice setup you have there.

House,

I believe myrison only has 1 ep 800. CV and SRoode are the two people that order 2 of 'em.

In that last pic, it looks almost as if you wet yourself with excitement.

I'm sure Mark can photoshop a puddle in there for us.

That's not my schtick. I'm an Art-eest.

Man, I just laughed so hard I peed a little...

Hey, now we know what another Axiomite looks like. You should put one of these photos in the "Show your face" thread ...

Nice sub!

You are insane! You have THAT much sub power in that small of space? Crazy! I LIKE IT!!!!!

Very nice I hope they sound even better than they look. Congrats!!!

Very nice indeed.

Excellent Jason, man that 800 looks really sweet incorporated with the 600, beautiful finish.

Before you all call me a bass-head (again), note above that the 600 is unplugged (for now). *insert evil laugh*

Jason

Nice Jason, you certainly look like a proud Papa!! where's the cigars? There's that dang cherry finish again....wondering to self if made the right choice(B. Cherry)....

Just thought about this thread. To avoid confusion, I do NOT own a Ep800... at least yet.
I just finished a good 30 minutes of listening of pipe organ on SACD, and there was quite a few moments when I could feel the note, but could not hear it (below 24hz). I have an EP500; I can only imagine the depth of harmonics on the pedals that sub must be able to reach!

Might also be helpfull for "America's Most Wanted". ::

I'm glad I no longer hold the sub bass-head honor. My 600 and twin 350v3's can't compare.

If Sroode decides not to turn in his ep500's on the trade up program he will be the win the bass-head award with 2 ep500's and 2 ep800's!

Don't think I didn't already think of running all four at the same time before sending the EP500's back! I'm not sure my breakers can handle it though. I have a dedicated 20A breaker, and one shared 15A breaker for the room, but I think it may be cutting it close with the AVR-3806 running at the same time.

Also, it may sound so good that it would make me feel awful for sending the EP500s back!

Okay, enough of the babbling, is anyone ever going to say how these bad boys sound and feel.

He said it was really smooth.


<runs away>

How do they feel? HEAVY!

Ok ok, so no disrespect intended towards any of you early birds who were lucky (smart) enough to pre-order your EP800's and are now reaping the rewards of said purchase... but when will the 800 be available to the general public for God sake???

I've been putting off my Axiom home theater purchase until the 800 becomes available, and I must say it's just about to kill me!!! I don't know how many times I've had myself convinced to just go ahead and order the Epic 80 with the EP600... but as soon as I get the cursor over the 'Order' button, reality hits me that I will forever regrett not waiting for the 800. It's even crossed my mind that I could buy it, then upgrade when it becomes available. But I would hate to waste the money, and I know just as soon as the 600 ships, I'll log on here and see that the 800 is finally for sale.

So congrats to all of you lucky bastages that got it while the gettin was good... but now that you have your goodies, let's open the flood gates and let the bass flow into other homes as well now shall we... PLEAAAAAAAAAASE




I hope my envy doesn't show right through my post

Micah, you might want to call Axiom to ask them when it will be available. Depending on the size of the pre-orders, it might take a while for them to start processing new orders, but you could slide in to be first in line when it becomes available.

Why you miserable cork sucker... You Fargin Icehole you! I put your bells in a sling! (Sorry, could not resist replying to you Johnny Dangerously reference, one of my favorite childhood movies!)

The thing to remember is that the trade-in value on the Axioms is quite high, especially in the first year or two of ownership. I have not calculated it exactly, but I would bet that pre-ordering the EP800s (and getting the $400 discount) would have more than made up for the loss in ep600 trade in value and the return shipping cost.

Micah, wait for the EP-800... unquestionably, don't let impatience get the better of you on this one. Trust me.

Just post a REW graph or two... PLEASE!

I will post some by tomorrow, promise. Working on them tonight.

Yay! I got my Axiom order! Oh, wait, it's just the ceiling brackets.

Wow, so you're going to hang the subs?

Well, since they don't have ports, I have to work another sick fetish into them.

Make sure you screw into a stud!

Err... wait...

I await your expert analysis. Yes it's been painful waiting for the 800 to arrive but the outcome is amazing, so incredibly smooth and integrated, commanding yet perfectly unobtrusive, all is forgiven. I thought the 600 sounded impressive and would surely have been satisfied, but this transports me well beyond desire for anything more. I cannot believe how much more realistic everything sounds, not just LFEs, my impression of Axiom has taken a quantum leap. Does justice to our single couch seating arrangement, of course I wish I'd ordered two, but glad I only ordered one, my wife's response upon returning from work was, "OMG that's f*ing huge!" (yes, we do share a verbal filter issue).

Take heart, tomorrow sometimes comes.

So I've made a decision. As I truly am a bass freak, I'm going to add to the ep800 (which should be here today or tomorrow). But before I go ahead and splurge again I was just wondering:

Should I go with another 800 or two 500s? What of power? will that much power kill my breaker? (to be honest I really, REALLY liked Terzaghi's idea of the two 800s and two 500s... but i'm not sure about the technical aspect of doing so. I guess I have some studying to do. What would I need to add to my 3808 to make that work? so many choices, and not enough knowledge!! i hate that!

Congrats on the very nice looking new sub. You may want to watch The Discovery Channel's show (can't remember what it was) on the effects of a jackhammer on the human body.

But seriously, I love that finish and wish I had waited and splurged on my own speakers.

Question.
Probably a silly question but my EP500 gave off enough electromagnetic interference to drive my infrared blaster nuts when they sat close by. My room would go crazy and I was going crazy trying to troubleshoot until I discovered that the red LED on the blaster to indicate it received a signal was actually pulsing in time with the deepest bass.

Any chance that having double 12" drivers will have an effect on the M80 in such close proximity?

Before diving in, definitely wait until you have the one sub to put down $ for anything else. As Satkartr mentions, one of these bad boys does a very nice job filling your room with sound. If you have a big room and care that the bass is smooth for every seat in the room (as opposed to just being perfect where you and your wife sit and watch), then you'd be a better candidate to add another sub.

When I did my initial room tuning with the EP800 and the EP600, I found that the incremental benefit of having the two subs (+ another less capable sub I've always used in the rear of the room) was very small. I was surprised at how little the EP600 added to the effect when the other two subs had already been equalized to flatten response in the room. Given that, I decided to leave the 600 unplugged and sell it as I just can't justify all that additional money for a very modest improvement in frequency response (and the improvement is only in other seats, not the ones my wife and I sit in). I'd look at the argument the same way from your perspective, just that you haven't yet put the money down on a second sub and I've already invested in my 600.

As for the 800 versus 2 500s, I'd definitely add another 800. You get diminishing returns as you add additional subwoofers, so you're going to get a better incremental result from adding one 800 than from adding 2 500s.



Nothing more than a $2 Y-adapter for the RCA cables leading to the 2 subwoofers.

If you're really obsessed with flat response, look into adding a Behringer Feedback Destroyer (BFD) equalizer to tune the response in your primary listening position to be as flat as possible. It's less than $200 and a lot cheaper than adding a pair of EP500s.

Jason

Jason:
I would need to pull my rack out to look at the back of my BFD, but doesn't it also offer two outputs?

Jason, forgive me if I missed it ... did you compare the 800 against the 600, one on one?

Probably, but he's being a tease.

Yes, the BFD has two outputs, but I think you have to feed it two inputs, also. That being said, I think this would be terribly useful in having multiple subs, because the BFD would ensure that the split signal did not drop significantly in voltage. Likewise, you could theoretically EQ two subs differently.

Yes, two outputs that can be equalized separately. And while I tried doing this first, what I found was that it's actually easier to plug them both into the same output and equalize the room as a whole compared to trying to tune them each individually. (the problem with the latter is that as soon as you turn them both on, cancellation occurs and your two perfectly flat curves disappear).

The BFD does boost the input voltage significantly, so some of you that might remember the EP600's attenuation that occurs when daisy chaining another sub through it will be happy to know that putting the BFD into the mix solves this problem.

And yes, I've compared the two directly. I'm now sitting down to write up some more detailed thoughts. So, shhh, no interrupting!

Jason

Ah-HA!!

Must... See... One.... REW.... Curve!

Well, I got my EP800s, but I'll have to get them both replaced. One had a ding, which I thought I could live with, but then I saw the volume knob was messed up. Also, the crossover switch didn't click at each setting. It clicked okay at the first two settings, then kind of feels odd and doesn't click at the other settings. True, I could just have them replace the amplifier section on that one, but I may as well get the ding taken care of, too.

On the other one, the grill was pressed against it, leaving a mark which may or not be able to be cleaned off. I didn't look too closely. But several pegs on the grill are broken, and one of the holes for the pegs is a little messed up. So yeah, all of this waiting and now I get to box them both back up to be shipped back. Not fun! Anyway, tomorrow I'll take pictures and email them to Axiom and see about having replacements sent. In the meantime, they DO function, so I'll still play with them. I watched a little bit of Kung Fu Panda just to see if it seemed any different, and it did, so I think I'll be happy once I get pristine subwoofers.

Wow that would suck, big time.

Sorry to hear that CV, those 800s are pretty heavy, I wonder if they need even more anti-Fedex packing or not?

I'm so sick of hearing about these shipping companies destroying product.

I still can't post a complete review (I don't feel I've spent enough time listening to do so), but I can share with you a lot of measurements and some thoughts on my experience with the 800 thus far.

Keep in mind that in all measurements below (unless otherwise stated), I am running two subwoofers. The second sub is always my Earthquake Supernova MKIV-12" sealed sub that I place in the rear of my room to flatten overall response. (it only plays flat down to around 35 Hz, so all of the heavy lifting is always done by the EP600/800/PB-13)

As many of you remember, in the past I spent considerable time conducting a shootout between the PB13 Ultra and the Axiom EP600. There were two series of blind listening tests with multiple participants. The previous link is to the first series of impressions, this link takes you to my final results and decision.

With that as background, I set out to compare the EP800 to both the 600, which I still have, and the PB-13 Ultra, which I can do fairly well from a measurement perspective as I have all of the old FR curves I captured then. Beyond the FR curves, though, it's hard to give anything but a very subjective comparison between the two, which I'll happily do, but with that caveat.

So, let's begin with a response curve for the EP800 after being tuned through the Behringer Feedback Destroyer Equalizer (BFD). You'll see as you read below that I've gone through several rounds of this. The curve below is the first (and incidentally, the flattest) I was able to achieve with the EP800 & BFD.

EP-800, Initial BFD tuning:



As I think you'll agree, the results are impressive. The EP800 plays from 13 Hz to my crossover point at an impressively tight +/- 1.75 dB (in my main listening position, which is my primary concern). In addition to it being "calista flockhart" flat (a term coined here during an earlier review), the EP800 also lives up to it's billing of playing very low, considerably lower than I've been able to achieve with the EP600.

On that note, a few words on the direct comparison between these two subwoofers.

EP600 versus EP800 Comparison

While the EP600 is an incredibly capable sub, its minor annoyances (to me at least) include the artifacts that come along with a ported sub. Many people probably never notice this (I don't see it mentioned here much), but on incredibly demanding home theater scenes, the EP600 will exhibit a slight chirp of port noise. (To put this into perspective, this occurs in ~1-2% of all movies I've ever watched, and never during music) Nevertheless, it does happen, and is one of the reasons I put the money down for an upgrade to the EP800.

As I'm sure is obvious, the sealed EP800 does not suffer from this, so that is a welcome change for me. Aside from that though, how do the two subs compare? In my very modestly-sized room, I put very little focus on maximum SPL as any quality sub is capable of more than enough output to handle even loud listening volumes in my enclosed room. Flat and low frequency extension, however, is of paramount importance, and here, the EP800 absolutely does not disappoint. Below is a graph comparing the observed results in my room between the EP600 and the EP800.



As you can see, in my room, the 800 gives me a full 7 Hz more in the nether regions of LFE, which may sound like a minor improvement, but the effects are quite apparent. Don't be fooled by the difference in output between the two lines. Note in the text that I was tuning the 600 to a higher output at the time, it does not indicate that the 600 plays louder than the 800.

But is it LOUD?

So, we've looked at how flat the EP800 plays, but what about putting it through its paces and cranking it up? Sure it can play flat at 78 dB, but what if I want to play LOUD? Even though it has more than enough output to destroy my room and I will likely rarely task it to this level, I decided to crank it up a bit and see if it could maintain a flat response across this range at a much higher output. The results are below:



In this graph, there is an 8 dB rolloff to 13 Hz, but the response is otherwise flat from 15 - 75 Hz. I suspect that at least some of the rolloff is due to room effects and unfortunately the BFD is not capable of any sort of equalization below 20 Hz, so my ability tweak that low is nil. (they didn't plan for a sub like the EP800 when they built it!)

Just to test this theory, I played a test tone at 13 Hz and turned up the gain manually to see how loud it would go (or how loud I could stand it). When it hit 103 dB at 13 Hz, I decided to give up. (Yes, 103 dB at 13 Hz!) Keep in mind that my gain dial on the back of the 800 isn't even at the halfway mark, but I literally could hear and feel the drywall in the back walls of my theater shaking when going to 103 dB, so I didn't feel like taking it any louder.

So, to answer the question above, "Is it Loud?" Yes, it is.

And what about the SVS PB13-Ultra?

Before reading this, re-read my introduction and the caveats about my comments about the PB13. I did not do a side by side comparison, these are measurement comparisons only, and they were taken at different times.

The SVS can be tuned to several different modes (10,15,20 Hz, etc.) For this comparison, I'm using the measurements taken from the 10 Hz mode as it seems to most closely resemble the extension of the EP800. Below are the best results I was able to achieve with both subs in my room.

The graphs below include the EP600 as well to show a complete comparison between the three.



As the graph shows, in my room the EP800 extends its flat response significantly deeper, but it is again important to note that this is likely largely impacted by room effects as I did not have my home theater chairs in the room when I tested the PB13, so this is not an entirely apples to apples comparison. I've seen several frequency response charts that show the SVS playing with only a modest roll off down to 10 Hz, so I believe this chart belies its capabilities to some degree (though you'll note it did have slightly more output at 10 Hz than the 800).


Closing thoughts

If you're still with me after all of the info above, congrats! Like I said in the opening, I still feel like it's too early for me to give my complete thoughts on the performance of this sub across all types of source material, but from what I've experimented with so far (which includes most of my favorite bass-heavy demo scenes and little else), I can say that I am extremely happy with the EP800, and that it is unquestionably an upgrade from the EP600 that is well worth the money.

For me, even without completing more exhaustive listening tests, I am confident in saying that this is the last sub I'll buy for a very very long time. And yes, I realize what a dangerous thing that is for a home theater fanatic to say, but I don't feel even the slightest misgiving as I type it. I've been looking for the 'perfect sub' for a long time, and to me, the EP800 is exactly that. It delivers incredibly flat frequency response, heart stopping volume, and comes in an absolutely stunning high-gloss cherry package with Axiom's always-awesome customer service as icing on the cake.

What more could you possibly ask for?

My gain knob was snapped off as well (the attenuator post as well as the knob that attaches to it) when mine arrived. New amp is on the way of course, no questions asked by Axiom.

CV, sorry to hear about that my friend. I hope that the enthusiasm in my review helps you wait just a bit longer.

Jason

Wow. I wanted one to begin with. After reading your review I must figure out a way to make that happen... FAST!

Excellent procedure and results, Jason. Now those pipe organ discs will really play!

I must take a moment to say thank you for the your time and effort that yielded yet another outstanding review Jason. Having posted a fair bit of technical writing lately, I know the effort required.

You've posted quite a number of terrific pieces here, but you've outdone yourself this time, IMHO.

This was exceedingly well written and documented, and is a model of writing for us to follow.

Keep this up and I'm sure that we'll be reading your reviews in the trade magazines soon.

Oh, and nice sub too. Understatement of the year?

Fantastic write-up! I hope Axiom quotes you on that.

Wow excellent job Jason, that was very informative, now I have some intellectual basis for understanding what I have been experiencing.

Yes, my package arrived as pretty much an absolute wreck, punctured on all sides, upside down, box opened on top and at the bottom, with 2 dings on the back right side of the speaker that I am prepared to live with, the volume knob also is dinged and kind of sticks, does not shift smoothly, still considering if it works right I will not necessarily change anything.

Does Fedex suck or what, is this just a generic problem, they appear to make no provisions to deal with heavier items the way moving companies do, this clearly counts as serial incompetence.

I don't know that any other courier is any better.

And yeah, great write-up, Jason. I'm glad you're around for people to rely on so I don't have to do so much.

Very nice write up, sounds like you have found the sub you were looking for, just as I did mine.

You guys are blaming the shipping companies, and they may be responsible for some of the dammage, however you are forgetting where speakers are shipped from, Canada. In order to get them to you, then need to cross the boarder. I am sure that much of the dammage is / can be caused by US customs verifying the contents of the packages. This would explain open boxes and dammaged components (US customs removes speakers from boxes and tries to put them back).

Awsome report Jason, just might have to put one or two on my Xmas list for next year, LOL.

paul

Wow! Excellent write-up! One of the Years' Best! Two thumbs in a vertical orientation! A review your whole family can enjoy!

(thought I'd provide reviews for your reviews!)

cv, we still need a write up for dual 800's :). You and Sroode get to pick straws.

Last time I crossed a boarder, he nearly ran me over and proceeded to get in my face for ruining his ollie.

I think its legal to shoot skateboarders in Wyoming just like coyotes and I believe you can even spotlight them at night

Excellent Jason, thanks for taking your time to do this very informative writeup!


Regarding the shipping, maybe the packaging isn't suitable for these big, heavy and sensitive speakers? I worked for a company in the past that had $500k+ small aircraft turbine engines shipped to and from all over the world and don't recall one single incident of breakage due to shipping, as one might guess their packaging was superb.

BEST REVIEW EVER !
Suitable for any magazine.

Fantastic work, Jason. I am deeply appreciative of your analysis. Hope you can sit back and enjoy now

Nice Jason! Detailed and to the point, exactly what we needed. Enjoy!

Jason's write-up x 2. Whew, I'm glad that's over with.

Tell you what CV, we'll gve you a choice:
1. Write the review
2. Get a date.

So, when's the review coming out?

OK, that was a low blow, but I just couldn't resist.

Don't worry. I liked it.

I won't even go there, I'll leave that to Mark

Welcome to the Axiom Forums. Use real words at your on peril!

ewww. I'm not touching that!

Fantastic review Jason (as expected)! I'm hoping that I'll have some time when I get home this weekend to do a little tuning, and I'll post my opinions. PLEASE do not expect the masterpiece that Jason posted!

Thanks for all the compliments guys. I enjoyed writing it quite a bit, and even more so now seeing the responses.

Steve, we don't expect it... we demand it!

Jason

Yeah, Steve. You're standing on the shoulders of a giant! ADD value!

Or at least let us know what the view is like from up there.

Fine, just please don't look up my skirt...

Well, I tried out scenes from Pulse, War of the Worlds, and The Incredibles. There's certainly more heft to the low end now, and it's not like the EP600 was a slouch. I haven't tried just one EP800 yet.

Oh, I was curious. I have an email in to JC, too. I originally had a hum with the single EP600, which I remedied by using a balanced XLR cable. Again, with a single EP800, there's no hum, but upon hooking the second sub up to the first, they both hum. It's not loud enough to impact movie watching, but I'd still rather not have it. I don't know enough to understand why hooking up a second sub would re-introduce the hum. Can someone fill me in?

Together they chant in unity like Cistercian Monks......

Did you try playing with the ground plugs on the amp? I had to do a bit of this with mine before finding the right combo that would work. Also a cheater plug (3 prong to 2 prong adapter) will help (though apparently there is some electrical risk in doing so)

Jason

A cheater plug IS an electrical risk!!! This should ONLY be tried to see if the hum is silenced. This is NOT a fix!

You said that you had no hum using one sub. Did you try using ONLY the "other" sub?