 My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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Over the years since I starting coming to this forum, the topic of setting distance or delay for subwoofers is often discussed. One of the questions that we see all the time is why does my receiver's auto setup mode set my DSP based subs like the Axiom EP600 or 500 so much further than the actual physical distance. In my case, the Denon will set my EP600 around 26ft, when it is actually about 12-13ft. What I have read in the manual, on forums, and in discussing with all of you, is that it is normal and a result of the internal processing or nature of a DSP based product. I don't have this issue with my other subwoofers, the EP350v3's. The measurements taken by my Denon are "dead nuts" accurate to the measuring tape, as are my other speakers. So, for many years I've trusted those settings, until tonight.... I was playing some low bass songs on youtube, especially for showing off your subs. I turned off the 350's and focused on my 600. I noticed with my 80's set to small, and an 80hz crossover, I could still hear the 600, but it did not impress me. Keep in mind I have my speakers and subs all calibrated to 75dB SPL. I also had my Radio Shack meter at ear level and set to the 80dB setting, the receiver was around -25dB on the Denon. The 600 was barely even registering on my VU meter which would be less than 75dB's during the intense lowwws. When I switched to Direct mode, which bypasses any bass management, basically the same thing as having the 80's on large, and using the sub + mains setting, the bass was LOW and INTENSE. I'm like what the heck, are my 80's better than my 600? So, I started lowering the distance setting down from 26ft and ended up at around the actual physical distance it was from me, 13-14ft. All I can say is WOW, the difference is like night and day. Now I can hardly tell the difference between Direct mode and Stereo Mode (mains set to small with 80hz crossover). The 600 is putting out lowww, punch in my chest performance. When watching the SPL meter now, the meter jumps to 85+dB's during the low frequencies at the same volume on the Denon. ............. I know all the experts, white papers, etc., will tell you to trust this setting your receiver is giving you, but I encourage you to try changing the settings if you feel your EP subs are lacking, which may be why many of you use LARGE settings, or lower your crossover to say 40-60hz. I also want to add that Jakeman has always said to add 3ft to the physical distance of any DSP based sub or product like the SMS-1. I agree that this method is MUCH more accurate than trusting your receiver, and I have found the results are very similar to me just using the actual distance. I know a lot of you have asked why your receiver gives such crazy results for the EP subs, 10-25ft further than actual. Please try changing your receiver setting to around the actual distance, you may be suprised with the results. You can always change it back to 20+ ft if you want. 
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with s
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Thanks sirquack, when I get my twin 800's I'll try that setup.
Mel N.
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with s
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And I will feel it all the way down here
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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I'll have to play around with the distances and see how much difference I can detect. I set it as roughly the distance+3 feet when I did it, but now I'm curious how different it can sound. Can you link to the low bass songs you were playing?
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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I don't have them linked, but if you type either "subwoofer test" or "bass test" on youtube, there are a bunch of ones with great lowwwws. It is possible that the newer receivers may give different results. My Denon 2805 has always been like double the physical difference no matter where in the room I place the 600. I think others have received results 10+ when running auto setup.
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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Yeah, if I let Audyssey set the distances, the sub's distance is invariably on the horizon.
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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That's an interesting and important result. Is it just Audyssey you're talking about? I haven't seen mention of the receding sub problem for MCACC.
Greg
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with s
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So I have another question(s)
If I understand correctly, you:
Run the auto setup
Manually correct the sub distances to actual or +3 feet
Is there a manual dB correction also or did you find you didn't need to modify those settings?
Thanks again for the info.
Mel N.
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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Over the years since I starting coming to this forum, the topic of setting distance or delay for subwoofers is often discussed. One of the questions that we see all the time is why does my receiver's auto setup mode set my DSP based subs like the Axiom EP600 or 500 so much further than the actual physical distance. In my case, the Denon will set my EP600 around 26ft, when it is actually about 12-13ft. What I have read in the manual, on forums, and in discussing with all of you, is that it is normal and a result of the internal processing or nature of a DSP based product. I don't have this issue with my other subwoofers, the EP350v3's. The measurements taken by my Denon are "dead nuts" accurate to the measuring tape, as are my other speakers. So, for many years I've trusted those settings, until tonight.... I was playing some low bass songs on youtube, especially for showing off your subs. I turned off the 350's and focused on my 600. I noticed with my 80's set to small, and an 80hz crossover, I could still hear the 600, but it did not impress me. Keep in mind I have my speakers and subs all calibrated to 75dB SPL. I also had my Radio Shack meter at ear level and set to the 80dB setting, the receiver was around -25dB on the Denon. The 600 was barely even registering on my VU meter which would be less than 75dB's during the intense lowwws. When I switched to Direct mode, which bypasses any bass management, basically the same thing as having the 80's on large, and using the sub + mains setting, the bass was LOW and INTENSE. I'm like what the heck, are my 80's better than my 600? So, I started lowering the distance setting down from 26ft and ended up at around the actual physical distance it was from me, 13-14ft. All I can say is WOW, the difference is like night and day. Now I can hardly tell the difference between Direct mode and Stereo Mode (mains set to small with 80hz crossover). The 600 is putting out lowww, punch in my chest performance. When watching the SPL meter now, the meter jumps to 85+dB's during the low frequencies at the same volume on the Denon. ............. I know all the experts, white papers, etc., will tell you to trust this setting your receiver is giving you, but I encourage you to try changing the settings if you feel your EP subs are lacking, which may be why many of you use LARGE settings, or lower your crossover to say 40-60hz. I also want to add that Jakeman has always said to add 3ft to the physical distance of any DSP based sub or product like the SMS-1. I agree that this method is MUCH more accurate than trusting your receiver, and I have found the results are very similar to me just using the actual distance. I know a lot of you have asked why your receiver gives such crazy results for the EP subs, 10-25ft further than actual. Please try changing your receiver setting to around the actual distance, you may be suprised with the results. You can always change it back to 20+ ft if you want. Thanks! I have gone through multiple audyssey setups and using the 8 positions involving the soundfield where you have the seating positions and some in front and back and am still dismayed about my EP500 sub results. I will definitely be playing with this setting today. Also, on another not, if you recall I had problems with the emotiva amp (mps-2) and am seeing that you are happy with your odyssey amp or amps. Could you tell me if it or they are quiet, like near silent? And, which models do you have? And, finally, would you suggest I give them a try should I get the chance to try some used ones given that I use the denon 3808ci and full axiom 7.1 setup with m80s up front? Thanks for continued help.
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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Hey everyone, well just to remind everyone my Denon 2805 is like 5+ years old, and does not have Audyssey, but does have a setup mic for measuring distance, levels, speaker size, etc from ONE location. Mel, I always go back and just verify the dB levels with my Radio Shack SPL meter, and it usually is very accurate. I have found that the Denon seems to calibrate everything to 72dB's which I usually use 75dB, not much difference. As long as everything is the same, that is what is important. For distance, my 350's are always exactly what I found find using a tape measure, but the 600 is always like 13-15ft further than actual measurment. So that is the one I'm changing. Now, keep in mind I'm not familiar with Audyssey, yet. I have heard there are some settings you can change after Audyssey does its thing, and some if you change it will disable Audyssey. I think you can set speakers from large to small with no problems, as that is the receiver doing that, not Audyssey, and they normally recommend using small. However, I'm not sure about dB levels or distance settings, that might disable Audyssey, can't remember. I think I've heard that the newer receivers are better at calculating distance, so if you get no more than 3ft added on, your probably ok. I believe the Audyssey Logo on the receiver screen will go away if Audyssey disables itself. Laura, I can send you a PM about the amps...
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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Is it 3' or 6' you add for DSP Randy? For some reason, 6' is burnt into my memory banks.
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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I've heard both figures, though I've never heard an official stance from Axiom.
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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Hey Mike,
Well, I know Jakeman always said add 3ft for any component that is DSP based. So add 3ft for the sub, and also if you have something like the Velodyne SMS-1 in the equation, add another 3 ft.
I've been playing around with using the actual physical distance of 13ft, upto 16ft, and everything in between. I'm not seeing a huge difference between using the actual distance, or adding 3ft, or anything in between. But I see a huge difference compared to using 26ft, that is just crazy. I could hardly detect the 600 with a setting of 26ft for distance.
Right now, the kids are watching The Incredibles, and I have the 600 set at 13ft distance, which is what I'd get if I used a measuring tape, nothing added. It is performing great.
I would be interested for others like RickF to try this, his 600 is right next to the seating area.
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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I'm finishing up my Bass Traps today and need to re-calibrate everything. I'll give it a try. I have always thought the bugus number Audyssey came up with was silly and re-adjusted to add 6' to actual. I have not ever experimented as you have. I am curious now though. I'll play some and post the results.
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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Do you know if you change the distance setting, after Audyssey has completed, does that mess with Audyssey, or disable it? I know you can change your speakers to small after the fact, I just don't know where Audyssey comes into play.
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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Here is the Audyssey setup guide from AVSforum that one of the members put togethor, very complete. Looks like they do not recommend changing the sub distance if it is higher than the actual distance, as that will screw up the time delay from the sub output, and what the mic measured. hmmm http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=134123&d=1235138717
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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Randy, how do you factor in your multiple subs when setting distance? I'm curious because I have three subs, but in a much smaller space then yours. I have a feeling I'm going to be doing some tweaking today! 
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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Well, I talked to Jakeman about this once, and read an article on audioholics about setting up multiple subs. Both say to average the distances of your subs. It is best if you can try to space the subs close to the same distance, but that is not always easy.
So following that rule, I have the following:
12ft (350) + 12ft (350#2) + 15ft (EP600 12ft+3ft for the DSP) / 3 = 13ft average.
I plan to experiment later today with just using the actual 12 ft measurment for the 600, and not figuring in the 3ft addition, but probably won't be able to tell the difference.
Again, if you can place all the subs the same distance, you don't have to average.
M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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Makes sense, and really, in your case, I don't think that extra three feet will make much of a difference. It'd be more difficult if the subs were drastically different in length.
Thanks!
***********
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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When I used Audyssey for a brief few days, a light appeared on the display of the Denon showing that it was enabled. There are many different Denon models but they all should have something similar telling you when it is enabled or not without having to go into any settings.
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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Randy,
You can change all the settings after running Audyssey. You just can't change the EQ settings.
I'll play tomorrow.
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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ok, so you can adjust the distance with no problems? I was thinking I read either on the Audyssey FAQ homepage, or on AVS that you couldn't. Wouldn't changing distance settings affect the frequency results Audyssey found prior? I know when I alter distance settings, it changes my graphs a little.
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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ok, so you can adjust the distance with no problems? I was thinking I read either on the Audyssey FAQ homepage, or on AVS that you couldn't. Wouldn't changing distance settings affect the frequency results Audyssey found prior? I know when I alter distance settings, it changes my graphs a little.
On my Denon 2807 you can change the distance, crossover and large/small settings w/o disabling Audyssey. However, the green light that indicates Audyssey EQ is on changes to red indicating that you have changed some settings. AFAIK you can’t change any of the EQ settings w/o turning Audyssey off as it‘s a specific EQ curve. There are other EQ curves “FLAT” “MAINS” “MANUAL” -etc… but I believe these disable the Audyssey curve completely as Mike said. Yes changing any of the other parameters will change your frequency plots some more than others.
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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ok, I get it. For the most part, you can probably trust the distance settings, as these newer receivers are probably more accurate than my old and trusty 2805.
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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ok, I get it. For the most part, you can probably trust the distance settings, as these newer receivers are probably more accurate than my old and trusty 2805.
Speaker distance settings (not subwoofer) is all I use the auto setup feature for once I decided I didn’t like what Audyssey did in my last room. It’s dead on every time. I will try Audyssey again when I move.
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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What sub do you have, I find the receiver is very accurate with my non-dsp subs.
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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Audyssey has my sub at over 25 ft, it's about 14...you guys think I should adjust that?
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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Wow, sounds like nothing has changed then in regards to receivers. I could be wrong, but I don't think it is Audyssey that is setting the distances, just like large/small. I believe it is the receiver, but I could be wrong.
All I can say Adrian, is that my EP600 Digital based Axiom sub is about 12-13ft away from the primary seat. My Denon had it set to 26.6 ft. Changing mine to 13ft was like night/day, so much better.
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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Hey Randy, it's ironic that you found this to be beneficial for you because I was going to try the same thing the other day. I don't use Audyssey, but it did set my subwoofer distance to 23 feet which is double the actual distance (right to the back of my room). When I was playing music the other day I could really feel the bass on the back wall near my elevator which got me thinking of trying to cut the distance of 23 feet in half and seeing how it sounded in the listening position. After reading your post, I ended up trying it earlier (only had a couple minutes) but I didn't notice a difference; I'll do some more listening tomorrow.
I've never had anyone assist me with the subwoofer crawl, so it's very likely that my subwoofer isn't in the ideal position but I'm very limited as to where to put it. That said, do you think that would have an impact? Probably a silly question.
Thanks for the detailed write up and your findings.
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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'nough said, I'll adjust it and see how it sounds at 14 ft.
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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...seems better, more 'accurate'? perhaps the synchronization is better now. I wonder if somehow the length of the sub cable affects Audyssey's readings. Although my sub is physically around 14 ft away, I've routed the cable through and under the floor then back up...cable is 35 ft long.
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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Audyssey sets my subs at 24.5 feet even though they are only 12 feet away. I gave up on experimenting with closer distances when I didn't really hear any improvement - and read countless times that you should not change the distance which has been calculated because of the DSP delay in the EP-500s. Anyway my sub performance really improved when I added a second one.
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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Your measurements are nearly the same as mine. Next time Alan's on I'll ask him for his advice, seems to sound better set at the actual distance of 14 vs 25 ft, but I don't know if it's because I EXPECTED it too or not.
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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I was coincidentally able to learn something interesting with my 35 foot cable when I added my second EP-500 and was messing around with different placements. I daisy chained the second EP-500 with the 35 foot cable and immediately noticed a dramatic drop in sound level from that second sub. I had to significantly up the gain to get an equal sound pressure. Didn't like the placement anyway so I abandoned the 35 footer (it was a good coaxial cable). So...makes me wonder about how much signal loss would be occurring with that kind of cable length. I now daisy chain the sub with a 12 foot cable and there is no need to adjust the gain different from the first sub.
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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IBmack - what you've observed sounds strikingly similar to an oddity in Axiom's amplifiers (particularly EP600) that causes subwoofers daisy chained through them to drop off drastically in volume.
Awhile back someone much more inclined to electric engineering than I (Mojo) measured the input impedance of the amp and determined that it was abnormally high, which causes this effect. The fact that it went away when you switched cables means that maybe the EP500 does not suffer from the same effect, but it sounds so similar that I thought I'd at least mention this problem with the EP600 amplifiers and daisy chaining.
Jason
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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Placement of the sub makes a huge difference, at least that is what I've found with all these years of trying different scenarios. As I mentioned above, my 600 is now up front dead center between my m80's. If I use the receivers 26.6ft distance for the sub, the only way I get any impressive low results up front is when I have the 80's set to large. However, with the EP600 at 13-14ft distance, I can put the 80's on small with an 80hz crossover.
Now switching back/forth from Stereo 2 CH and Direct mode, it sounds the same, no difference. With the 26.6ft setting, Stereo mode sounded so weak with hardly any bass, and Direct mode was the only way to get any useful LFE.
Also, I have my subs all daisy chained and there is NO signal loss over distances, and there should not be. It is the EP amps that cause this, many have had this issue as Jason has hinted. I'm using a combination of 15ft, 25ft, and a 50ft cables from Monoprice and Bluejeans.
M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB FluanceRT85
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,569
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,569 |
What sub do you have, I find the receiver is very accurate with my non-dsp subs.
I have an EP500.
All I can say Adrian, is that my EP600 Digital based Axiom sub is about 12-13ft away from the primary seat. My Denon had it set to 26.6 ft. Changing mine to 13ft was like night/day, so much better.
My audio engineer friend found something similar the first time he listened to my system. Just a few cannon shots into Master and Commander he cocked his head and said “wow that’s off.” He said that the time alignment between the mains and subwoofer were off. He reset the subwoofer distance from about 25’ found by the Auto Setup to about 18’ (physical distance was about 8 feet) Sure enough we replayed the scene and instead of the cannons going boooooooom? they went BOOM! Even I could tell the difference. Just so happens his hobby is sound effects and cannons are his favorite.
Wow, sounds like nothing has changed then in regards to receivers. I could be wrong, but I don't think it is Audyssey that is setting the distances, just like large/small. I believe it is the receiver, but I could be wrong.
AFAIK you are right Randy. With my 2807 you run the Auto Setup first which determines what channels have speakers, there “size” (lower extension) and distance. These settings remain in the receiver even if the EQ is turned off. Next you run the Audyssey EQ measurements first of which is from the exact same place you ran the Auto Setup measurement from. So it seems to me that the Audyssey builds upon the data collected from the Auto Setup. Unfortunately you can’t (at least on the 2807) interrupt this process and input your own speaker sizes for Audyssey to use. This often resulted in my QS8s being set to large (corner loaded) and occasionally my M80s being set to small. While I change those settings to what I wanted at the end I’m sure it threw off the “perfect” EQ curve Audyssey had calculated based on it’s settings. Cheers, Dean
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,928
axiomite
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axiomite
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,928 |
Lol, Dean, that scene in "Master and Commander" was the one I used as a reference when I switched from the Audyssey 25 ft setting to the 'actual' 14 ft setting of my sub, and felt like the timing, or synchronization was greatly improved. This has got me wondering about some of the Audyssey settings, in particular distances, of my other speakers.
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 64
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 64 |
I manually entered the actual distances for my speakers in my receiver. After reading this I hooked up my mic and ran YPAO on my Yamaha. It set the distance of my sub to 22ft. Actual distance is 9-10 feet. The mains (M22s) YPAO set perfectly to the actual distances.
Normally I just use the Parametric EQ of YPAO and tell it to skip all other tests. My receiver also lets me edit the Parametric EQ to my own tastes.
I'll have to listen to hear any difference. I'm not sure I have the movie Master and Commander.
Yamaha RX-V2700 / CDC-815 , Oppo DV-980H , Axiom M22s , Paradigm DSP-3100
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 Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 44
buff
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buff
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 44 |
Ok maybe I'm not understanding things correctly. I thought the way Audyssey worked was to measure the time it takes from the initial signal leaving the receiver to the time it hits the microphone and thereby compute the corresponding distance based on delay? That being the case it seemed like a pretty reasonable explanation that subs with DSP would look further away than they actually were due to the signal doing whatever it does as it gets amplified and emitted. It is then up to the receiver/Audyssey to adjust the timing of the various signals leaving the receiver so that they arrive at your ear at just the right time. Based on this perhaps faulty understanding it seems to me that arbitrarily changing the sub distance to more accurately match the physical distance will be screwing up the syncronization. Please educate me.
EDIT: I should add that nothing above should suggest that I disagree with the adage if it sounds good it is good.
Last edited by ibmack; 03/29/09 03:00 PM.
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,569
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,569 |
Ibmack - your understanding is the same as mine and I can’t explain it. My friend (audio engineer) couldn’t explain it either but did say the processing circuitry in the receiver and subwoofer typically ad 5-10 feet to the actual physical distance of the subwoofer. I know that doesn’t explain why the Auto Setup was adding about `18 feet to mine or why cutting it to about 10 feet noticeably improved the sound of the bass.
One thing I can say is that using Audyssey makes voices, especially male voices sound very hollow and tinny in my first room with no noticeable benefit. In the second room I tried it voices still sounded tinny but less so, however this time the ambient sound field did sound more spacious and lifelike. I copied over the curve to the manual EQ and in the 64, 125 and 250 bands Audyssey was setting the channels to anywhere from -3dB to -9dB which explained to me the tinny male voices.
And yes I’ve followed the FAQ and did everything the great minds here could suggest and still ended up with the same results. So I leave Audyssey off and with the Auto Setup I follow President Regan’s advice “Trust but verify.”
Cheers,
Dean
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1
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Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 44
buff
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buff
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 44 |
grunt, I will continue to experiment with Audyssey on and off - as I do with everything in my setup to eventually arrive at nirvana. I initially didn't give Audyssey an adequate chance, then became converted, but who knows, maybe I'll cast her off again. For the time being Audyssey has me in her grips - and I am content to be there because I figure something as to compensate for having the world's worst HT configuration (is there a thread for overcoming the worst room by brute force?).
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