Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Building a home theatre incrementally

Quick summary: Just bought first house, need a home theatre, bought an Onkyo TX-SR607. I wanted to go the full 7.2 route, but after looking at some of the axiom stuff and deciding I want it (plus custom wood/finish? SWEET!), it just doesn't seem to be in the budget to buy it all at once.

Easiest way to put this is: If I'm going to piece it together 1 or 2 things at a time. Which order should I be buying things in? The order I was considering (by product) was:
2xM80
1xVP150
1xEP125
2xQS8
2xQS8
1xEP125

Thanks for any thoughts/opinions!

M80s first, then 1st set of surrounds, then center, then a sub (do get a more substantial sub than the 125, really), then second QS8s.

I would see if other 607 owners have had issues with driving the 4ohm m80's. Other than that, I agree with Ken.

Wow, you guys are fast. Thanks for the tips. I'll definitely have look into whether or not the 607 can handle the M80s. If not, I'll just step it down a notch and get what my receiver can handle.

Edit: Just as a follow-up, I checked Onkyo's site and this is what it says about the front L/R speakers:
90 W + 90 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz 0.08%, 2 channels driven, FTC)
105 W + 105 W (8 ohms, 1 kHz, 0.7%, 2 channels driven, FTC)
110 W + 110 W (6 ohms, 1 kHz, 0.1%, 2 channels driven, FTC)

Is this telling me that even the M50s at 200watts might be too much to handle? Sorry for my very basic questions. I swear I'm a fast learner

Welcome to the forum Scott64,

I would go with a single EP350 (over twin EP125) paired with the M80's. My own personal preference when it comes to order goes mains, receiver, subwoofer, center and then surrounds.

I agree. How big is your room? I would start with a single 350 or higher subwoofer.

Scott, welcome. The M80s should certainly be first(and the 607 would have no difficulty driving them at reasonably high levels). Since the M80s have very good bass on their own, a sub(preferably stronger than the EP125)can be postponed. The M80s can be used to form a "phantom center", so the center speaker can likewise be postponed. The QS8 surrounds add very significantly to the enjoyment of both movies and 2-channel music(when processing such as DPLII is used to extract the natural surround ambience from the front channels and send it to the surrounds where it belongs), so the two QS8s should be included in the first purchase.

Scott, just to add a comment as to power, the maximum rating of a speaker(e.g., 200 watts)indicates what it theoretically could input continually without going up in smoke, but has nothing to do with what it uses in typical listening. The M80s are slightly above average in sensitivity and require less power than many other speakers. For a comfortably loud level 1 watt or a bit less is needed and even on extreme split-second peaks it's unlikely that more than about 100 watts would be required.

What they said.

I'm with Ken on the order of purchasing. What custom finish are you considering? If I had it to do again, I would have started with the Vassalo series (but then again that option was not available in 2003).

Thanks again, guys. So it looks like I'll be ordering some semi-gloss Cherry Chestnut M80s (to answer your question, David) in the very near future. Then some QS8s (same colour) as soon as possible or at the same time if possible. I'll be glad to get the expensive speakers out of the way first. That'll only run me about 3 times what I originally intended to spend on speakers. That's what I get for trying to make an informed decision :P (but I'm sure I'll be happier with them than I would if I had bought a Futureshop special)

I already asked about the Onkyo 607 and M80s here

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=256057#Post256057

Everyone seems to think the Onkyo will be fine. It's actually scheduled to be delivered today, so I'll be hooking them up today and can report back maybe by Monday if the 607 can drive the M80's without issues. I'll give it the weekend for tv, movies and music before judging.

awesome news, hope you enjoy your rig.

Great! I look forward to hearing how the M80s work with the 607.

I am equally interested in how the 607 handles the M80's! Waiting to hear with baited breath.

Followup question though: at what point would it be absolutely necessary to upgrade to a more powerful receiver? When you add the surrounds? Or could the 607 handle the M80's plus 2 surrounds?

- Sam

Bah, the receiver came today but I can't take an hdmi signal and output thru component cables and I don't have the new tv yet. No down-conversion. I'm not sure what I was thinking. So setup will be delayed a while. I'm not interested in disturbing my current setup for the weekend if I can't do it right. Probably Monday I'll hook up the M80's, VP150 and QS8's and play them all day and see how they handle everything.

On the big plus side for me, the Onkyo is 5 inches less in depth than my HK AVR630. So this means the Onkyo will fit into my cabinet and I don't have to put it all the way on top on my entertainment center.



If the Onkyo 607 doesn't have any problems driving the M80's, there shouldn't be any problem driving a center, surrounds, rear channels and a second zone.

If are worried about price on that sub (axiom's are just too steep for my wallet) arguably the best value subs on the market are Hsu Research (.com) subs.

Update: Disregard my last post. I hooked everything up leaving the old dvd player and the component cables and digital coax in place. I'll worry about getting the PS3 hooked up when I get the new tv. So, it looks like I'll see how everything works fine over the weekend.

That's good to know. I was worried that if the M80's were drawing 4 (or 3) ohms it might cause problems when combined with the other surrounds and centers that are drawing 8. Maybe just push the receiver too far. So it's good to hear that it would not be a problem!

Still looking forward to that review

- Sam

Sam, another thing to keep in mind is that the impedance of the M80s, as shown in the NRC measurements , is only near 4 ohms in the bass. The majority of the frequency range shows a higher impedance, and if the typical practice of rating speaker impedance at an average number was followed, the M80s would be rated higher than 4 ohms(and the occasional near-hysteria over the point might be avoided).

Those charts are pretty informative. I suppose I have less and less of a reason by the day to not drop more money for a whole system rather than a stereo setup... haha damn.

I've had everything running most of the weekend and everything looks great, although I've only been listening to tv so I haven't been pushing them. It is sitting inside a glass enclosed cabinet and is running warm but not hot, so I don't see any reason the Onkyo 607 couldn't handle higher levels without issue.

Just some negatives, mostly just nit picking on my part so it should detract anyone from this unit...

1. I like the front displays better on the Denon's and Harman Kardon's. The Onkyo's just seem very simple.

2. There isn't an external 120v outlet on the back of the Onkyo. I had one on my HK so I could run an external fan to keep it cool. It would be really nice to have that so when I turn the receiver on, it also turns the fan on. I have to figure something out there.

3. The OSD only works through an HDMI connection. This seems odd not to be able to do through a component or composite connection. Without hdmi, the setup has to be done thru the front display screen. This will only be annoying until I get the new tv and PS3 into the setup.

4. I'd swear the Onkyo sounds a little brighter than the HK I replaced. I have the crossover settings the same as before and could swear it sounds slightly different. Maybe it's just my imagination.

Can someone explain this setting on the Onkyo? The LPF of LFE setting? It can be set to 80hz, 90hz, 100hz or 120hz. What exactly is the purpose and what would the ideal setting be? I haven't seen this type of setting on the Denon's and HK's.

How well was the 607 able to handle the M80s?

Shag, that LPF is the low pass filter which affects only the channel which carries the low frequency effects which are occasionally present during movies. It has nothing to do with the bass redirected to the sub from speakers with a crossover rather than full range. The LFE channel theoretically extends as high as 120Hz, but in practice little or nothing is there above about 80Hz and most is much lower.

Some suggest that the full 120Hz setting be used, in case something useful might be there in some cases; others suggest setting it at 80Hz to lessen some 120Hz hum or other noise that might be up there. It doesn't appear to be a crucial point either way, but I'd be inclined to set it at 80Hz.

Just a suggestion for that, but I use these nifty remote switches for that purpose. It does add another remote to the setup though. I have heard there are more advanced models that can be powered on through a Harmony remote, but I never bothered looking into it. Anyhow, if you you put the receiver, fan, and anything else specific to receiver on the same surge protector connected to the remote outlet, problem solved perhaps.

I just finished my second cup of coffee. Thus, I also just remembered that there are "intelligent" powerstrips, which is another solution I was looking into. With these powerstrips, there is a master outlet that dictates if the others are powered. So that if your receiver is plugged into the master outlet and turned on, then the other outlets on the powerstrip will also receive power. However, if you turn off the receiver then power to the other outlets on the strip is killed (and then the fan, etc, is turned off with the receiver or on with the receiver).

That's some intelligent design I can get behind.

Shag I am very interested in how the 80s and the Onkyo 607 work. I am seriously looking at the Onkyo tx-nr 906 and the Epic 80-500 for my setup. I am waiting for a reply from Onkyo tech support to confirm that running 4 ohm speakers would in no way effect my warranty. The plan at this point is to order the Epic 80-500 the last week of May from Axion FO. my wife will be out of town the last week of June so it would be a perfect time to setup and new system and tweak to my hearts delight.

Everything seems to running just fine although the TX-SR607 is running a little hotter than I first stated. It keeps the whole cabinet warm. The PS3 also runs warm so when I introduce it into the cabinet as well, I would expect to find a way to keep things well ventilated just to avoid any other issues. If your equipment isn't in an enclosed cabinet, it won't be a problem.

The manual says the 607 has a setting for 4ohms and 6 ohms.



The "Note" probably explains why I can't find that settings in the setup screens.

Leave it on 6, no matter what. 4 just limits the current and may cause clipping.

Thanks for all the replies. I think I'm going to order the 2 M80s, 2 QS8s, and the VP150 next week or shortly thereafter. Rather than spending extra on a custom finish, I'll get black oak (maybe Boston cherry) for now and I'll be a snob about the finish when I have more money to throw at a home theatre system. Won't be able to post my impression of the speakers until after the week of June 15th (when I get into my house).

I placed my first order. 2 m80s, 1 vp150, 2, qs8s. Went with Boston Cherry. Can't wait to hear them. This will be the first set of decent speakers I've ever owned.

Good luck with the wait. I think you'll be fine for awhile with the 80s set to large until you get up to a sub.

Get your demo movies all picked out in the meantime.

Congratulations. That's a very nice first order. I started out with just a pair of M80s.

Gah, too jealous... Congrats on the purchase, can't wait to hear your review!

Very Nice. Let us know what you think and don't forget to post pics.

I'll be sure to post pics, but unfortunately pics won't come for more than a month (house doesn't close until June 15th). I'll likely need to order a couple wall-mount bracket things for the QS8s before I get into the place. I may be able to post a first impression prior to the closing of my house, though, because I'll be looking to try them out ASAP.

Is 12AWG preferred for speaker cable?

12 or 14 gauge should be all you need, Monoprice.com has good quality/inexpensive wiring which makes 12 gauge easier/cheaper to buy. The Qs8's come with a wall mount 'T' bracket which allows for flush mounting.

Congrats on your order, Scott, it's exactly the same as mine was a couple of months back! get some quality recordings ready....

Scott, congrats on your order.

Purolator Website:
Delivered to SNR546051 at RECEPTION of ****** at ********** ****** via SAINT JOHN, NB depot.

I'm stuck at work for the next 3 hours. Darnit!

Wow! Your address looks like my password!
Shoot yourself in the leg. They will have to let you go home early.

HEY A FELLOW MARITIMER!!!

I never looked at your location below your name Scott until I saw the name on the Depot.

Welcome!

Edit:
I should be able to cross the Fixed Link and get to Saint John in under three hours if I push it. Oops, I mean if you get there and you are missing the M80's, it wasn't me.

Don't even try. I've got my bike with me today. I'd catch you and then make a mess of your face with my carbon-fiber-knuckled gloves

And I can't shoot myself in the foot. Then I'd have to go to the hospital and the speakers would be out there longer.

Just yell "Bang!" loudly enough for some coworkers to hear, then claim you were shot. Have a buddy pull up in a box van with a posterboard "cross" on it. Tell him to wear a white jacket.

Viola! You're outta there!

If I've learned one thing from watching The Simpsons and The Family Guy, things like this always work!

Wow! The M80s are a little heavier than I thought they'd be (QS8s are, too). I had to have help bringing the M80 boxes into the house (I'm too small to carry a large awkward box like that). I didn't have a chance to hook anything up because I don't have any speaker wire. I was going to go into town to find some, but then a friend called me to go biking, so the speaker wire will have to wait until tomorrow.

I did un-box 1 QS8, the VP150, and 1 M80. They're damn near perfect. Hope they sound good Might test them out tomorrow or Friday night if I can find a place locally that I can get some speaker wire from for less than $1/foot.

Good thing you didn't get an EP600, that is like carrying a refrigerator. I'm a fairly strong guy, and it took a lot of effort to get it downstairs from the front door.

Wow. That sounds heavy. It'll probably be a little while before I can afford a sub.

I managed to get 250ft of 12awg speaker wire from home depot today for < $0.50/sq ft. My goal was <$1/sq ft. because it would cost me about $0.80-$1 once shipping and tax was paid if I were to order online. I would have bought some banana plugs, too, but they wanted almost $17/pair and monoprice wants < $1/pair. lol. So I might be able to test it out this weekend (sans banana plugs because there's no possible way for them to be here by tomorrow but they don't really matter)

LMAO! I just realized I put "square feet". What the hell is a square foot of cable? Sorry about that. It's been a rough week :P

Hello guys!!! I received my order of M80s, VP150, QS8s and EP800 sub a week ago. I would like to put everyone's mind to rest regarding the EP800 as a comparison to other Axiom subs. It is a literal beast!!! It has the deepest, smoothest, clearest and clean sounding bass I have ever heard. And I have heard plenty. The sound is unbelievable. In my opinion, the EP800 is ahead of its time.

If your budget can handle the extra cost or if you can delay your purchase and save the extra cash to get the EP800, you will thank yourself a million times over. This sub will add sound to your audio system that will leave you, your family and friends with their mouths wide open.

Hello guys!!! I received my order of M80s, VP150, QS8s and EP800 sub a week ago. I would like to put everyone's mind to rest regarding the EP800 as a comparison to other Axiom subs. It is a literal beast!!! It has the deepest, smoothest, clearest and clean sounding bass I have ever heard. And I have heard plenty. The sound is unbelievable. In my opinion, the EP800 is ahead of its time.

If your budget can handle the extra cost or if you can delay your purchase and save the extra cash to get the EP800, you will thank yourself a million times over. This sub will add sound to your audio system that will leave you, your family and friends with their mouths wide open.

Well, It's been a few weeks since I moved into my house. Got somewhat settled in and set up the speakers. Currently I only have the M80s and the VP150 hooked up.

Very happy with the sound of the M80s for music so far. I haven't done much movie watching yet because someone hit my car and took off while I was at my girlfriend's old place, so the money I had set aside for a new TV had to be spent on paint for my car. I've been able to max out the volume on the 607 without the speakers breaking a sweat. At those volumes, though, it's pretty obvious that a sub would help fill out the lows. The sound seems to be pretty clear and crisp at any volume I've tried.

If you are maxing out the 607, then don't presume it is the M80 lacking the bass. At loud volumes, you need a lot of power, and bass notes take more power than highs. Anywhere near full power and you are clipping hard, which is part of the reason you are lacking some bass. I had a similar issue with my Denon before adding a separate amp to the mix. Now I could sell my sub except for subterranean LFE in some movies.

'M80s' and 'lacking bass' should never be uttered in the same sentence. If there is one thing the M80's don't do, it's lack bass. The 15 inch woofers in my old Cerwin Vega's wish they could hit as hard and low as the humble looking 6 inch woofers in the M80's can hit. I'm still looking for the 12 inch cones that are hidden somewhere inside these babies. They did a good job of disguising them, but I just know they're in there somewhere!

Good call! I completely forgot about that.

Can't see buying a new receiver over it any time soon because the volumes where I noticed a decrease in bass are higher than volumes I'll likely ever use for listening to anything.

I don't want to open the worm farm, but I was surprised that even at lower volumes (say 90db) how much more impact my towers had with the new amp. (Crap, there go the worms! JohnK will be around soon to put them back in their cages.) But this amp can unleash 500 watts without clipping, where as my Denon was rated at 110 (and started clipping at 84 according to lab test). In short, those 16db peaks Alan describes require a ton of instantaneous power, and are delivered unclipped now, whereas they were being clipped from the Denon. (Still happens in 5ch mode as the Denon clips the highs to the center causing some thinness/shrill that I used to get from my towers.)

Got my amp for under $500 and have not regretted it once. Unlike that "special" speaker wire JohnK sold me. He said it was all about the wire.


Just kidding John.

90dB is lower volumes?!

Volume is in the ear of the beholder.

According to the deaf monk that is silent.

Yeah Charles, I hope it was total kidding, because that just ain't the way that amplifiers work.

Well, couldn't each of the decibels the new amp puts out be just a teensy bit louder than each decibel his old amp put out?

Decibel Lite.

I still want a big-azz amp someday.

Worm Alert!


For critical listening, yes, it is lower than the 95db average or 105 peaks that are common in my room for really getting into the layers of a song. I'm not saying it is quiet. How do you critically compare the reproduction of a guitar or piano or horn or drum if the peaks are 20db to 40db below the real thing? And if 90 is so reckless, why do some many people enjoy live music that exceeds this level every time - including many kinds of music.


Right, I get that; 80 wpc is enough for all the listening you do. But given the dynamic peaks of classical music, have you tried a separate amp, you might shock your calculations, even at the top edge of sanity...about 88db?
As the article Alan wrote details, getting even near real instrument volumes- say 105db peaks (10db off from real), takes more dynamic power than my Denon 3300 can dish out at my 15ft listening position without distortion - simple fact of math which I assume must be accepted by the group. So while I don't doubt that you are right John, that amplifiers don't work "this way", the below fits my experience perfectly and I trust it is accurate mathematically.

Whatever it is I'm not understanding about how amps work, I'm fine with, since the simple fact more power has increased my enjoyment of music (not so much for theater). Most seem to enjoy the benefits of clear dynamic peaks, even if it is all unicorns and pixie dust. Give it a try, toss out the slide ruler for the day and just slop around in Chopin's dynamic range!

The below is from Alan's article. The bracketed comments are mine, in order to give my opinion the appearance credibility, and to confuse the reader. Enjoy.




For anyone new to the forum, know that I have learned a great deal from JohnK and respect his opinion very much. Don't read the cold transcript without the bar-room-banter atmosphere my comments deserve!

John, your serve.

Now that's just silly.

Charles, Peter's tongue-in-cheek comment about bigger decibels really isn't any more silly than claiming that at a level using only a few watts an amplifier with a much higher maximum output capacity has more "impact" than a lower powered amplifier which isn't close to its maximum output. Equal volume is equal volume. If 5 watts are being used(roughly what your speakers would use at 90dB), a 1000 watt amplifier can't result in any more impact than a 10 watt amplifier.

So in the future, if I'm looking to upgrade my receiver. What exactly should I be looking for? I bought my 607 before I bought my speakers. To be honest, it was the 7.2 that drew me in despite the fact that I doubt I'll ever have or have a need for 2 subs. I did a little (but not much) research prior to the purchase of my receiver and speakers because the more research I do, the more things tend to cost me and I end up with a hobby rather than a simple purchase.

Scott, just to point out that the "7.2" is at best just a minor convenience factor and shouldn't have been a significant factor in a purchase. There's still only one .1 sub channel and this is simply an internal splitter that provides two outputs of that one channel. The same result can be achieved with any receiver having a sub output by plugging in an external splitter that might run $2-$3.

Yeah, I know. That shouldn't have been a deciding factor. I didn't even know it was an internal switch (good info). And paired with the receiver getting some really good "best bang for the buck within it's price point" reviews, I thought I'd do well to pick one up while they were on sale at http://www.electronicsforless.ca. And maybe it would have been sufficient with different speakers.

By no means am I saying the combination sounds bad, I'd just like to be able to reach higher volumes and still have the speakers sound the way they're supposed to sound.

Is there a sub-$1000(CAD) receiver that will do these speakers some actual justice at reasonably high volumes? If so, I might pull the trigger on one and kijiji the 607.

Scott, I wasn't indicating in any way that the 607 wasn't a good buy, just that two wires coming out of the sub channel rather than one isn't a big deal. You already have a receiver that can drive your M80s to dangerously high(to your hearing)sound levels. More expensive receivers with a little more maximum power capacity would simply allow about 2dB more volume on brief split-second peaks. For example, a peak that could be played now at 106dB could be played at 108dB. Relax and enjoy the sound.

It was just your comment about "Anywhere near full power and you are clipping hard, which is part of the reason you are lacking some bass" that made me think that maybe I would benefit from a more powerful receiver.

Scott, that wasn't my comment and never would be, because there's no factual basis for it.

Shoot. You're right. That was someone else. Sorry about that. I got your name mixed up with someone else. I don't know how I did that. I'll blame it on having to work so much overtime this week Sorry to bother you and thanks for taking the time to write back to me so quicky with each response!

Me? I'll blame it on TomTuttle.

That was me, I don't think John uses an external amp. And having heard the wisdom above about how my 110 wpc Denon should sound the exact same as an external amp, I was very skeptical that any improvement would be found in my humble home theater. But I'm curious so I bought a pro amp (QSC GX5) with the full intent of returning it. Contrary to the scientific theory JohnK knows well, in my room, with my speakers, in my brain, it sounds much better on music - better bass punch, and no distortion on the upper end of male vocals and horns.

Perhaps my prized Denon AVR 3300 is broken some how, I don't know. But from my experience, if you want louder, and clearer, and better bass response, try an external amp. For under $500 I found much more enjoyment in the music, you might as well. If not, pack it up and send it back. It's not like buying a car or something - guitar center and others let you return products without hassle.

I remember in high schools when scientist definitively knew that there was nothing smaller than an atom. The math and theory made this clear beyond debate. Then they found sub-atomic particles. Throw out the old text books. Maybe they will find new calculations to explain what so many people hear about the benefits of more power on music. Or maybe its just the pixie dust that comes with the amp! Either way, relax and enjoy the sound the way you like it. (And for the responsive article about the old blind test, note that volume is not a part of the test. My limited experience says that is the key - at lower volumes they sound the same, but once you get past a certain level clipping is a problem - a problem not addressed in the blind testing.)

That's just it. The "all amps sound the same" statement always includes, "when driven below clipping". Louder requires more power, if the amp doesn't have the power to play as loud as you are requesting it will clip.

Read the debates about whether or not you need an outboard amp and you may end up never getting one. Actually try one out for a week and you may end up never send it back.

Pixie dust grows on you.

I always read the "all amps sound the same" debate as a reason to buy a $500 pro amp over a $5000 pixie amp. Not as a deterrent of going with an outboard.

Trust me Scott (are you by chance the same Scott64 from eSportbike?), once you get the M80's home and hook them up you will completely forget how much you paid for them. Even at $5000 dollars a pair these speakers would be well worth every penny! The QS8's are equally as good a value as the M80's. And they are right, the M80's will keep your bass needs fulfilled quite nicely, expecially with music, so go for the center channel next.

My next bit of advice may draw some flack around here, but IMO Axiom subs are quite expensive, too much so for the average consumer. So myself I wouldn't blame you at all for going with an SVS or similarly lower price/bigger bang unit than having to settle for an EP125. Even dual EP125's are not going to be able to give you as much thump as a competing brand would be able to give you for the money.

I had the money to buy the EP800, and I'm very happy with it. And once my replacement speaker comes I'm sure I will be head-over-heals about it. but in my personal opinion, if you can't afford at least an EP500, I would probably look at other brand options to fill your bass needs. I just honestly think you can spend your money more wisely than with the sub-500 series Axiom subwoofers.

The rest of Axiom's speaker line performs well above their price point though. Just wait until you hear those M80's!

Heck I must've been drunk, I completely forgot you'd already gotten your M80's. Somehow I got sent back to the 1st post in this thread and thought you were asking for advice! Lol, my bad...


So what's up with the M80's? Give us some feedback. I saw that you'd said you were happy with them up until the volume got insane and then decided you could use a subwoofer. No doubt a subwoofer will fill the bottom out better than just the M80's alone, but you have to give them they do put out very respectable bass, no?

Any closer to ordering the QS8's?

Oh, I have to disagree on the EP350v3. It's one impressive sub for the money.

While I have to admit that I've never actually heard an EP350, I still feel I could find better ways to spend $800 dollars than on one 350 watt sub. I'm not trying to crack on Axiom here, I'm sure the 350 sounds great. However when I was on a stricter budget I would have wanted more than 350 watts worth of bass for that amount of money.

For example I once had two down firing subs in my basement... a JVC 300 watt 13 inch thumper, and my Cerwin Vega 210 watt 12 incher. Combined I had about $500 dollars in these two subs, and let me tell you they shook my eyeballs right out of my head when you put them together. Unfortunately the JVC developed a problem, and I ended up trading it to another friend of mine after getting it fixed for some motorcycle stuff or something. While it was gone I decided the 210 watt Cerwin Vega did a good enough job all by itself keeping up with the rest of the audio gear I had.

It couldn't ever hope to keep up with what I have now, all by itself. But I still think I could find a lot more bass for $800 dollars than what the EP350 could give me. I might give it a shot, but it sounds to me as if Jay might be a little more frugal than that. And I think he could probably find a lot of bass for around $500 bucks elsewhere. But that's just me.

Has anyone used (or heard of?) a 10 watt sub before? According to the math, a 10 watt sub could generate a 50hz drum beat at 90 db (at 12 feet I think, according to JohnK's calc). I just can't imagine that. After only two decades of daily use of stereo equipment (including many subs and amps) and AVRs, I think the math formula has a gaping hole. It may be right for a test tone, but for a real drum beat, or bass guitar, or LFE - or a constant series of those notes? Axiom thinks you need 500 watts for one 12" driver to recreate bass notes. Why?

And if more than 10 watts is needed for subs, then why not for a tower that is trying to make the full range of music when I have the sub turned off? Something is missing in this discussion. I'm not saying the formula is wrong, but perhaps not all encompassing. It just does not reflect reality as observed by so many.

My understanding is that lower frequencies require much more power than mids and highs. What I'm not sure of is whether or not it's simply the physical act of moving a larger cone to a greater excursion or if there's some other reason.

Not arguing your point; I want a big amp.

Right, so if you desire lower freq done right you need more power. So the math does not account for the full audible range - at least that is my concern.

I'm sorry, Charles. I missed your point about a tower needing more power when the sub is turned off. My fault; I skimmed.

You're right. It's a good question and I have no useful info on the answer!

I think more to the point is the initial movement/surge of power needed to get the quickness needed. I know my system sounded very different running the A1400 compared to the 3808 alone. Bass had much more impact, even at lower volumes. The 3808 alone sounds very good, with the A1400 it sounded incredible. Someday I hope to play around with a Pro amp to see if they work as well as the Axiom amp.