Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Buzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Well, it's my turn to deal with the dreaded buzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz from hell. Give me a hand here.

I just got my new Odyssey Stratos amp tonight. Wow...I've never seen an amp like this. It's huge, heavy, SOLID, and beautiful.

I unplugged the interconnects from my main L and R pre-outs from my processor that went to my Rotel 5 channel amp, and replaced them with a pair of interconnects going into the Statos. Plugged my M60's into the amp. Plugged the power cord into the Statos and then directly into the outlet on my wall, and finally flipped the switch on the back of the amp to "on". The Odyssey logo blinked on a nifty blue light. So far, so good. Then as I heard the amp itself "click" on, buzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...

@&^*%!

I tried putting the power cable through my RS surge protector, rather than to the wall directly, and this had no effect. I moved cords around to see if the buzz changed in loudness and/or tone - nothing. I unplugged my lamp that's in that same corner - nothing. I turned the volume on my processor all the way down, and the volume control on the processor has no effect on the level of the buzz. I tried playing a cd to see if the buzz would go away once it received a signal...nope. I can hear the buzz behind the music.

This is not subtle buzz. Using my handy dandy RS db meter, it measures approx. 54db!

Aaaarrrrggggg...

Craig, about the only thing that caught my attention was that you appeared to say that you used a different pair of interconnects than the ones you used with your Rotel. If so, although I assume that these are also shielded coaxial cables, did you try the old ones? Other than that, unless Klaus says that the buzz takes a month of burn-in to leave, it would seem that the amp needs a return trip.

Craig, this could very well be 60Hz "hum" possibly due to a poor ground on the Odyssey amp. If you have a volt-ohm meter, remove the interconnect cables and measure between the case on the amp with 1 probe and the case on the receiver with the other to see if there is any voltage potential betwee them. If there is (and it may be quite small) you'll need to double, no triple check the ground on the new amp. good luck and let us know how it turns out.
Bob

The interconnects I switched to are essentially the same as the ones I used with the Rotel. In fact I've used them with the Rotel before without an issue. Just for giggles, I unhooked the Stratos, and hooked my Rotel back up. Dead silence - no buzz.

Thanks for the ideas. Not what I wanted to hear, but thanks. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.........

Craig, let us know what Klaus says about this.

Is your sub connected to your processor? Try disconnecting and powering it down (temporarily) and then reconnect the Stratos and see if you still get a hum or buzz. I had that issue same loud buzz or hum. By chance I disconnected the sub and the hum went away. Reconnected and it came back. Moved the sub away from all my component and re-connected it and it was gone. My sub was right beside my Bryston power amp and the sub power cable and speaker cables were crossing over each other underneath the small space under the sub. My situation maybe totally different than yours though.

Saturn

ps: my sub is unshielded but I think your is. But I still didn't know why shielding would affect the components I had since not video.

The first thing coming to mind is as audiobob mentioned.
Is this a ground loop hum?
You can try using a cheater plug on the Odyssey assuming it has a ground plug on its power cord (oddly enough the Anthem amp i had last week did not).
The Halo amp did have the ground plug on the power cord but it ALSO had a feature for lifting the ground loop (a switch) on the back of the amp such that no cheater plug would be required.
When i first had the hum from the Halo, i tried out the ground switch but the sound was not quite like a ground loop hum so i figured that that was not the issue. If it is that audible with the Odyssey and it sounds like a constant 'tone' i would guess that is the problem.

Beyond that, send the unit back to Klaus or in the least, give him a call.

I'll try the sub trick first.

As far as using a "cheater plug". Yes, the supplied power cord has the third ground plug. When I bought my Hsu, it came with a cheater plug, and buzzed like crazy if I didn't use the cheater. So it did come to mind that perhaps I should use a cheater plug with the amp's power cord. BUT - the owners manual states more than once, and in bold letters NOT to disable the ground plug. So I'm not doing it until/unless Klaus says to.

I'm going to call Klaus today. I'll let you know what he says. If I have to send it back I'm NOT going to be a happy camper. The thing weighs a freakin' ton. Shipping back is going to cost close to $50.

Did I mention the amp is beautiful?

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When I bought my Hsu, it came with a cheater plug, and buzzed like crazy if I didn't use the cheater.

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With that piece of info, i would say you probably have your answer.
I have had no issues with ground loops in my home and yet a friend of mine, who specifically built his basement with all sorts of 'proper' and 'extra' wiring issues in mind still has ground loops.
He has to use a cheater plug with his sub as well but the rest of his components are fine. If he moves the sub to another outlet, it works fine, except that his sub is no longer in a prime location.

I can understand the reasons for not wanting to remove the ground plug from the equation, however using the cheater plug briefly to eliminate the ground loop as the cause of the noise should not damage your equipment any more than it would have to your Hsu. That being said, call Klaus first and if he agrees, then give it a go. At least you have permission from the man who would do any repair if it actually came to that.
Someone can correct me if i'm wrong but i believe if you use a cheater plug but then plug into a surge protector you are essentially adding a ground protection right back in again.

Got any pics coming on that Odyssey?
I would love to see it. The pics on the website are limited.

I sure hope that's the problem.

This pic is pretty close to what I have. My unit is silver on top and on the sides as well. The glass Odyssey window lights up a dim blue when powered on. Not too bright, which would make it distracting. Just enough for a very nice effect. I'll take some actual pictures and post them later.

Oh...see the name plate on the back in this picture? I didn't realize it, but your amp comes with a personalized plate on the back. Mine of course reads, "Mr. Craig Rogers". How cool is that?

Did I mention that this amp is beautiful?

I want more pics spiff.
Something as to how it looks sitting in one's audio rack with other components.
I want to see that blue light.
I want details.

Did you buy it new? I do not recall.
Price?

If i were in your neighborhood Mr. Rogers, i would certainly drop in to see it.

That is sweet!!!!

Next time I'm in LA, I'm there.

Also try disconnecting your cable tv.That was the only time I ever encounterd that problem.My cable was not grounded outside to an earth ground.I connected it to a grounding stake plus I put in a ground loop isolater I got from parts express.That took care of the BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.

I spoke with Klaus, and he too suggested using a cheater plug. I just bought one during my lunch break, rushed home and made the switch. No more buzz.

But...(there's always a butt, isn't there?)

My right channel is dead. I called Klaus back and he says I blew a fuse. He's going to talk me through replacing the fuse, and he's sure I'll be up and running in no time. I'll keep you posted. So far so good. (Now if that's not thinking the glass is half full, I don't know what is!)

Oh...here's some pics.

Quote:
But...(there's always a butt, isn't there?)

Well, between you and Peter 'round here... Or at least a gorilla port.

Thanks spiff.
I will pass the link onto my signficant other so she can see what the all silver Odyssey looks like with a better perspective for its size and all.

How well does the unit dissipate heat?
It appears as if there is a solid cover on the top (no grills or vents).
Let me know once you've had a chance to give it a test run.

Chess, I haven't real world tested it yet, but Klaus says that the Stratos can be put in tight quarters without a heat issue. Appartently the amp never gets more than slightly warmer than room temp. If this proves not to be true, I'll let you know.

Do you use any kind of trigger for it or do you have to turn on the power switch everytime?

When are you going to get a better TV?

Mark

Chess - There is no trigger. I'll just leave it on all the time.


Mark - Next up is the Denon 2900. I'm waitlisted for that. Then the final piece is a TV. I've NO idea what I'm going to end up with in that department. LCoS, DLP, Plasma, or FP. ???? That's probably close to a year + away yet though.

Ha! It looks like you have the same JVC model I have, spiff. I don't mind the picture on mine. It's actually pretty nice for a tube, so improving my audio situation is more of a priority for me.

PQ is fine. My only issue is it's itty bitty size. (Yeah, yeah, I know 32" isn't tiny. But comparitively my audio is 100"!)

Spiff
any specific reason(s) you chose the Denon 2900???

It does everything I'm looking for at the moment, and does it as well as can be hoped for it's price. I was seriously considering getting a stand alone SACD player or even the Denon 5900, but a combination of price and the fact that HD-DVD will obsolete the 5900 pretty soon, kept me from going nuts.

That and I got a KILLER deal on a 2900.

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I'll just leave it on all the time

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Interesting
[raised brow]

On a totally unrelated subject, how is Arnold faring as the new Calif. gov., handling those big issues like the budget crisis and brown out power problems?

Klaus suggests leaving it on all the time as well.

Don't get me started on Ahnold. How that man is married to a Kennedy I'll never know.

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Klaus suggests leaving it on all the time as well.

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Yes, and Klaus also recommends a 4-6 month break-in. With that much break-in and being on all the time, i'd be more worried about just plain breakING the thing.

Sorry spiff. I have to put in a plug for our poor and beaten environment.

I haven't heard much about Arnold since he came into power. Has he done anything at all?

If I notice a spike in my electric bill, I'll start turning it off. The switch is place in a very easy to reach spot. (Especially since my amp is on top of my rack.)

As far as Ahnold goes...just to give you an idea - he's suggested raising college tuition 10-40% to raise more money.

No more political talk.

any reason why you chose it over the 2200? They seem to be nearly identical players? (I'm curious because I've been trying to justify the 2900 for purchase in the next month or two)

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I haven't heard much about Arnold since he came into power. Has he done anything at all?

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TANGENT ALERT!

Well, he's made his first annual State of the State Address and has released his budget plan. Other than that, the news scarce.

Did you know he also has a beer commemorating him?

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any reason why you chose it over the 2200? They seem to be nearly identical players? (I'm curious because I've been trying to justify the 2900 for purchase in the next month or two)

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Because I'll be getting a 2900 for less than the msrp of a 2200. Reading some threads on other boards, the 2900 has better audio. ???

Wow! spiff's stratos in silver looks great!

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How well does the unit dissipate heat?
It appears as if there is a solid cover on the top (no grills or vents)

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My Stratos stays "slightly warm" to the touch even after long, loud sessions. It still amazes me after almost two years. The stratos has huge "fin" like sinks on each side that seem to extrude from within the unit so that if you are looking at it from the side they look like open louver slats(as you can tell from Craig's great photos). The unit as a whole has a sleek, simple, understated beauty. The thick front face plate has an etched glass plate with the Odyssey logo illuminated in green. Craig's newer unit has an updated "led" blue glow. Klaus is going to send me a replacement kit (no more bulbs) to change mine to the new blue lights because my bulbs have burned out.

The Odyssey will not fit into a standard size entertainment cabinet. The stratos does not have grills or vents. The top cover is a thick removable aluminum plate. The inside is clean and well laid out. I leave mine on all the time as well (I know, I know but this is Texas and "dubya" is looking out for us on the energy front. I know your original post was to spiff but I just love talking bout' my stratos.

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"dubya" is looking out for us on the energy front

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PLEASE tell me that was a bad joke.

Didn't ya notice the crazy face on the post?

Yes. "Dubya" is looking out for Texas power concerns.
{rolling eyes icon if possible}
Too bad he's also not looking out for the caribou populations or marine life.

Anyways, thanks for the superb description mwc.
Coupled with spiff's pictures, i'm really starting to like the Odyssey again. I really need to have a trigger of some kind though. Considering how inexpensive they are, i might even consider getting 2 and using them as monoblocks.

Monoblocks are available. In fact, they have an offer to stratos owners in which they will convert your stratos to mono for free if you buy another mono. But I've gotta ask, why monoblocks?

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I really need to have a trigger of some kind though

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I don't mean to sound thick, but do you mean something other than the on/off switch?

Trigger, as in it will turn itself on when it gets a signal.

Some people are lazy that way. I mean, it would suck to have to remember to flip the amp switch after you put in your CDs of choice, wouldn't it? It would especially suck if you had already made it back to your comfy chair, beer in hand, and pressed play only to remember your damn amp was still off.

Ah! I see. An automatic electronic self initiating turner oner thingy.

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do you mean something other than the on/off switch?

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In a sense.
I need to have an option as to how the amp is turned on. Some units have a trigger that plugs into the preamp such that when the preamp is turned on via remote, it powers up the amp as well.
Both the Anthem and the Parasound i auditioned recently have this option as well as an auto detect signal feature. Once a signal is detected from the preamp, the amp turns on.
Our system is not always near where we are so manually flipping the power switch, esp. when it is on the backside is a real pain.

The trigger switch would certainly come in handy if you had the amp in a rack. My Rotel 5 channel amp has a trigger switch. It powers on and off when my processor gets turned on and off. And it's power button is on the front! It is a nifty feature, but in my case, certainly not a deal breaker.

BTW...since I know have to try replacing fuses, I'll take some pictures of the inside of the amp for you as well. I got the cover off last night. It's really a clean, straight forward looking beast. I know nothing about how amps work, so I can't say much more than that. I'll let the pictures do the talking when I post them.

2900 for less than a 2200? I thought my $509 deal was cheap...now i'm jealous...

Hey $509 is a hell of a deal! I wouldn't feel bad about that! Did you get that from Ecost?

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Don't get me started on Ahnold. How that man is married to a Kennedy I'll never know.

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They were hoping to breed a bulletproof Kennedy.

Now that's just tasteless.

I like it.

Craig- wow, nice job. I hope that thing sounds as great as it looks. I'm glad you got the buzz taken care of, too.

Re: your TV. Let me know if you're thinking of getting a Sony. I can offer you up my discount if you find a model you like. Keep it in mind. I just got myself a b-stock DVD player from their ES line that only cost $250, as compaired to over $700 at regular price.

Hope you enjoy the amp. Let us know how the fuse change goes, too.

-Kevin

Sweet deal! I'll have to keep that in mind!

I just got off the phone with Klaus again. He's at a loss for what could be wrong with the right channel.

Get this...he's going to build me a new amp this weekend and ship it out on Monday. I'll return this amp when it arrives.

Bummer that I'll not have my new toy to play with this weekend, but that's pretty cool.

Are you this much of an optimist in all things, or just with audio upgrades?

you think that's a bugger, try being in Klaus' shoes, now he has to find someone else named Craig Rogers to sell the refurb to!

LOL Or he can pop the rivets and attach a new plate.

welllll, I guess you could do that

Hey $509 is a hell of a deal! I wouldn't feel bad about that! Did you get that from Ecost?
--------
Goodguys.com just before they stopped selling Denon.

LOL...I'm sure that plate pulls off nice and easy.

And no, I'm RARELY a glass is half full kind of guy. I'm not sure why I'm being so positive with this issue. Very odd indeed.

Must be because you're breathing too much of the ozone coming off the new electronics as the break in.

Hey, I just found out where all of California's power went.

http://www.wiseguysynth.com/larry/day.htm

Make sure to click the picture, and turn your sound up! There's also some cool info about high power electricity equipment.

I also just found an explanation of what's happening in layman's terms. I'll paste it below (credit: MetaFilter)

"Put simply:

If you look closely at the beginning of the video (first few frames), you can see 3 sets of switches opening. Each switch is two horizontal bars that are swinging away from each other, one with a ball on the end, the other with a receptacle for that ball. The massive arc occurs across one of these switches as it opens.

These switches had a whole lot of current flowing through them. lalas has the right analogy, it's like a lot of water flowing very fast through a pipe. Over at the right of each switch is a massive inductor (behind the truck). Inductors have the property that the current flowing through one cannot change instantaneously (because of ugly magnetic effects with weird Greek letters and such).

When the switches open, there is no longer a path for the inductors' current to flow, but it can't stop immediately. Instead, it continues flowing, building up a massive voltage. There are a lot of electrons sort of jammed up against the end of the now-open switch, and they would really much rather be on the other side. Think water pressure, what happens when you quickly shut off a high-flow-rate pipe? Pressure builds up and there can be a physical jolt of some sort in the pipe.

In a pipe, there is nowhere for the water to go, unless the pipe bursts. With electricity, it can go through nearly anything if it has enough motivation (voltage). So this massive voltage builds up until it rips apart the molecules in the air and creates a path for the current to flow.

In short, it's like instantaneously shutting a valve in a very high-flow pipe, then having the sudden buildup of water pressure break through the valve.

It happened because one of the two horizontal gray things to the right of the switch closest to the camera failed. Those are supposed to split the voltage over themselves, so each takes half and the switch itself gets none while it's opening (I think)."

Peter, where do you find this stuff?

HOLY *&%*!

Also, I think there's more to that than just your explanation. Digging through the guy's account, it looks like one of the inductors failed (or something like).

C'mon Spiff! I was just at Costco (hate to sound like a rep from the store, but...) and the 55" widescreen Akai HDTV is $1499 with an in-store coupon bringing it down to $1299! What excuse do you have? In 5-10 years you can pop for your dream TV and move the Akai to the garage or something. Would be a HUGE improvement over that puny little thing you got now. But the coupon is only good through Sunday, so you better go take a look-see now, if you're interested.

Hey Chess. I believe the rolling blackouts are a thing of the past as new power plants have come on-line since. The budget crisis is a different story.
Having worked for the state gov't for almost 5 years myself (my wife still works for the state gov't), I can attest to the MASSIVE waste of taxpayer money in this state. Arnold has made moves to cut some of it, but the special interests affected by the cuts screamed. Arnold has now switched to self-preservation mode (or is it pragmatic mode?), moving toward the Democratic majority in the legislature.
Alas, the hopes of the frustrated taxpayers are dashed upon the rocks by self-serving populist demagogues once again. Pretty soon I'll be working until October to pay my taxes (but the rest of the years wages will be all mine, baby!).

Blackouts are only a thing of the past until the future non-renewable burnables crisis becomes a reality.
You go Arnie!!

Chess,

You drive a hybrid car, right?

A hybrid?
No, not yet. Can't afford it.
But i do drive a Civic which is about as close as you can get to economy with gas.
The next car might be a hybrid. Depends on the fuel cell technology. Heavy metals in the environment are not much better than burning fossil fuels.

Have you considered biodiesel? The conversion (from diesel) is very cheap.

Hey Chess, how do you power your computer? I'm picturing a stationary bicycle attached to a generator. When the serious cable arguments start up I'll bet you have to peddle like mad!

Oh yeah. And we're all environmentalists, I think. Clean air, clean water, healthy food. Global warming? I'm sure the most recent ice age won't be the last.
But what really frosts me up - and you may accuse me of anthropocentrism or speciesism or whatever - are the "environmentalists" who oppose the expansion of human habitat. Why do they root for a species other than their own? Do they loathe other humans? Do they loathe themselves?
I won't be rooting for other species to retain their habitat at the expense of habitat for my own. It is natural selection. Man is an animal. Man is part of nature. Man is successful. Man expands his habitat. Other species thrive or die as nature dictates.

Now Bigwill, tell me you are teaching your kids that sharing is what its about.
We have to share EQUALLY.
Unfortunatetly humans are anything but equal in our treatment towards mother earth. Rape is a good word though.

As for my computer, i do power it via electricity and i power it down each night or during the days i'm not home. You would be amazed at how the little things add up.
The more i learn, the more scared i am at the whole ugly scene.
I can't even stand going to big cities anymore.

At least (real) cities don't have strip malls...

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Why do they root for a species other than their own? Do they loathe other humans? Do they loathe themselves?

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I think just the opposite is true because without those "other" species it is difficult for our own species to survive(we have to be able to manage them in order to ravage them). One of the negative things that set us apart from other species(including plants)is the greed factor. I don't think most "environmentalists" are so much opposed to having enough "habitat" for humans but are opposed to destroying other species' habitats for short term profits. Not to mention the detrimental effect on the ecosystem as a whole(to which we are a part of, like it or not). It's kind of along the lines of: "Don't crap where you eat".

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Man expands his habitat

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So do virus'. Unchecked, a virus will ravage it's host until the host dies and then has to look for another host to survive. Hmmmm.....could this be why we as a species are looking towards other planets(permanent moon base, missions to mars, etc.) as host sites for humans? What if there were no "environmentalists"? What if nobody cared? There would be no checks and balances. Where would this lead to?

Just food for thought from a different perspective. Boy, did this thread take a different route or what.

Man= virus?
That is pretty harsh mwc. Even i wouldn't go that far.

But you otherwise have it down pat from my point of view. The greed drive of the almighty dollar has to go and common sense has to take its place.
Universal education is a big part of the key.

HumaNs are a Vviruss.

--Agent Smith

You illustrate my points exactly. Thank you.

Here in southern California, housing projects (where human families would live and raise beautiful human children) are being held up to protect species such as the Stephens kangaroo rat and the Delhi flower-loving fly. Apparently many people have an opinion of humans akin to your own: rats and flies before humans.

Here's a funny one: When the West Nile virus arrived here late last summer there was much concern. But the newspaper was quick to assuage everyone's fears, "Don't worry - the Least Bells Vireo and the (some other bird) have gone to their wintering grounds and won't be affected." Whew! I'm sure glad those little birds are gonna be safe!

To quote:
Until he extends his circle of compassion to include all living things, man will not himself find peace.
Albert Schweitzer (1875 - 1965)

or a more simplified version:
Man is a clever animal who behaves like an imbecile.
Albert Schweitzer (1875 - 1965)

Perhaps algae would be a better analogy. When algae has a population explosion due to a lack of limiting factors or predators, it kills everything around it off. Then dies itself, leaving a dead body of water. Sounds like a great plan to me! Also, I don't enjoy looking at people everywhere and people-made stuff everywhere. There is something to say for nature. And if nature is only preserved in small areas, we will have to spend vastly more resources to maintain it. Or we could just let it all die, and have waving fields of grain slowly dying off as we try and figure out why. Oh yeah, and then we could all suffocate as the oxygen all becomes carbon locked. Enjoy!

Chess, I do not advocate killing animals for fun.

Kcarlie, people have always had that sense of impending doom - "environmentalists" have it bad. Lacking religion, they find their solace in that Mother Earth thing. But I doubt human beings are capable of COMPLETELY eradicating ALL life from the planet. Should humans annihilate themselves, something will survive (or again spontaneously evolve) and it all starts over again. Eventually, the earth spirals into the sun, or the sun burns up, and it's over. Absolutely nothing for us to worry about.

I'll have you know, BigWill, that I do not "lack religion." I believe that that has nothing whatsoever to do with my environmental beliefs, and in fact may support them. I also know many other people you would brand as environmentalists do not "lack religion." Say, my mother, who is a United Methodist minister.

In addition, I'm not one you might brand as a "tree-hugger." I'm not an activist. I'm just interested in science. Read some magazines such as Natural History, National Geographic, or Smithsonian sometime. You might learn that there is reason to be afraid.

I can see your point of view, (humans do need a place to live) but you seem to be making little effort to see mine. Perhaps a compromise is more than order than the "nature must be subjugated to our will, since we are the most important things ever" or my (possibly percieved) earlier "humans must all die, because we will kill everything else."

Who does it hurt to put environmental controls on factories?

Who does it hurt to drive hybrids instead of (large, unnecessary) SUVs?

Guess what. I'm also a car nut. I read Road and Track. I drive a Volvo 850 Turbo wagon. Don't try to pigeonhole me, and I'll try not to do the same to you.

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I do not advocate killing animals for fun.

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That's good to know Bigwill.

What in THE hell is this thread about again?!?!

Y'all weird.

Chess, btw, thanks sincerely for changing your avatar back. I feel a LOT better.

We have a Corolla and a Minivan.

You guys see any football today, for chrissake?

I perhaps was over-generalizing when I implied that all environmentalists lack religion. My bad. And if you refer back to an earlier statement I made, you will see that I too would like to see clean air, clean water, and healthy food. Add to that: intelligent management of the old growth hardwood forests, being very careful with what we put into the oceans, saving the whales and dolphins, etc...
But here in my neck of the tumbleweeds (no woods around here) the "environmentalists" have made unlikely bedfellows with the grumpy old anti-growth people and the old school ivory-towered urban elites to conspire against suburban sprawl. While their motivations and solutions are all different, they oppose new homes for families. The areas they are fighting over are environmentally, ecologically, and asthetically (sp?) insignificant. The endangered rats and flies are their weapon to oppose growth.

I don't think you guys necessarilly disagree- there's a lot of instrumental value to humans in saving these sorts of critters and their environments (look at how fruitful studying rainforest critters has been to science).

Save the critters, cure cancer- it's all good.

I'll throw my $0.02 in and then gently back away from the conversation. I'm am a proponent of clean-air regulations and some of the other environmental initiatives different groups have undertaken. I agree that there is no reason people need to drive gas-guzzling SUVs or sports cars.

However my support for the left-wing environmentalists stops when it comes to agricultural issues. They are so backwards it really is laughable. For the most part, these are the same people that support "organic" food in the belief that it's healthier for humans (despite having no credible scientific backing) and it will save the environment. What these people don't realise is that "organic" farming is not sustainable. When so much of the world is under-nurioused/starving, we should be doing as much as humanly (or humanely) possible to increase food production in the world. However, supporting organic means of farming means reducing crop yields by at least 50%! Not to mention the disease problems that would run rampant. To make up for the drop in production from world-wide organic farming, we'd have to tear up every last inch of arable land in the world. That would destroy thousands of species of wildlife and vegetation, and would in fact destroy the world. Starvation would be worse than it is now because foodstuffs would become too expensive for all but the richest countries. It is just so ironic that the one thing that the environmentalist agendas push (organic farming) is the one thing that could ultimately lead the world into ruin.

And don't even get me started on the GMO/nonGMO debate....

I think that I agree with everything you just said, sid. I do eat organic vegetables, but pretty much the only reason is that I can get them delivered to my house so I don't have to go to the grocery store :-)

As a person with a (bachelors) degree in Molecular/Cellular Biology, I also don't want to get started on the GMO/nonGMO debate.

OK...not sure how my new amp thread turned in this direction...

How about taking this new topic to this thread. I created this thread for just these kinds of topics.

Back to our regularly scheduled programming...

I should have a new amp this week. I'll keep you updated.