Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Sound upgrade to M80's advise.

Hi all

My wife and I are looking to upgrade our theater's sound. While I've looked at the packages here I'm interested in opinions and recommendations.

We are currently looking at the M80 theater package with the VP180. However, I'm also interested in an all M80 package - using M80's for mains and rears and VP180 for the center without a sub (the wife doesn't like stands and likes the towers – yaa me ). The reason for no sub is my current setup has 4 bookshelf speakers (set up as large through my amp) on stands with a large center channel, a pair of QS8's and a sub - which hasn't been hooked up for years. I find I haven't missed the deep low end for TV or movies since my book shelf's have large woofers and can go quite low.

My theatre room is in a basement, therefore concrete floors with laminate and double drywall walls. It measures 12' x 20'x 7.5' with some materials used to limit reflections but no traps. The current sound is quite good but is over 15 years old now, except for the center and QS8's.

My main concern going to M80's only is power requirements. I have a Poineer reciever rated at 120 w per channel @ 8 or 6 ohms, meaning it probably tops out closer to 70 per channel. Since I'll not have a sub, the power needed for the M80's (and probably the VP180 also) will be high to get the low end these speakers produce. I know Axioms are very efficent speakers, better than my bookshelf's but will I need more amplification? If so, I am looking at some NAD power amps that will get me the to the real 100+ w per channel. I've looked at Axiom's A1400 but it's a little too pricey.

I think that's enough to start. Please chime in your thoughts and impressions and anyone who has gone with a similar M80 setup I'd be very interested in your experiences.

Thanks in advance.

Personally I would stick with just M80s/VP180 up front and QS8 surrounds/rears and heights if you use them. Onn’s opinion might differ since he has at least 4 M80s but IMO comparing the QS8s to the M22s (the M80s little cousin) the QS8s win easily in the surround role and win slightly in the back role.

Though I’m not a sound engineer from what I can tell there isn’t a lot of low frequency information mixed into the surround and rear channels and considering that engineers probably mix for what the expect the average person is going to have in the way of speakers I don’t think they will be putting lots of lower bass in the surround and back channels very soon. Might be wrong though.

If you were to add wide channels I would stick with M22s or even M2s.

IMO you might be better served by upgrading to a receiver with wide and or height capability and adding speakers for those channels. But it depends a lot on how your room and seating are laid out if this would make a big difference or not.

Welcome back to the forum!

The M80's are relatively easy to drive so the Pioneer should be Ok unless you are trying to achieve some very loud levels.

Does you avr have preouts? If so then simply adding an external amp is the cheapest option. I have been looking at used amps and there are many to choose from, so many I am undecided as to which to get. Emotiva and Outlaw Audio are 2 ID companies with good reviews, the latest XPA series from Emotiva seems to be playing nicely with the M80s now.

As far as a full M80 system, unless oyu have lots of room I would stay away from this idea. I have heard Mel's(onn) full M80 system and it does sound great but I think I prefer the QS8's for surround duty with movies. The M80 system excells at multichannel music though.

Hey Jakewash, I knew I'd be hearing from you !

One thing I just noticed was that the M80's are 4 ohm. My reciever is only 8 and 6 ohm. Will this be a problem? If so I can go to the M60's since they're rated for 8 ohm. But then I guess for timber matching I'd also have to go with the VP150 too!?

I was only looking at the 4 towers since I already have a pair QS8's and figured that would be enough.

As for the preouts, that's a yes! It is the way I was looking at for the amp addon. Since you say you've been looking at used amps care to share where you've seen these?

Whether or not 4 ohms is an issue depends on the model of Pioneer. If it is an older entry level receiver, I would be concerned.

Your best bet is to post the model here and see if anyone has direct experience with it.

Hi fredk

Good point! My model is the Poineer Elite VSX-81TXV. I'm looking at the owners manual which states 6 and 8 ohm @ 110 w per channel (not 120 per channel, my bad).

I assume if I set it to 6 ohm that it would be OK. The amp portion would work a little harder but shouldn't cause issues unless I crank it for too long...not that I do anyways! Currently I only listen at -35 to -30 for movies/TV given the small space of my theater room.

I could Bi-amp but then I'd have to eliminate the QS8's to do that, not really my preference.

As I said earlier I could just go with the M60's but wouldn't want buyers remorse later. Though I haven't auditioned either the reviews on both towers is very positive. I've heard the VP150 and own the M22's both of which are excellent.

Hey Grunt

Just noticed your post. Thanks for the info. You're probably right about the rear channels for a surround's. The QS8's are amazing little performers! Interesting idea with the use of M2's or M22's for wider sound stage in the rears...might have to look at the option! I could easily wall mount these (wifey don't like stands) like my QS8's.

One question would I be better off putting the bookshelf's on the side walls and the QS8's on the rear, or the other way around?

Best to put the QS8s on the sides and the bookshelfs on the rear. This option can be less expensive than adding QS8s to the rear, however QS8s in the rear also works well. The closer the rear speakers are to your seating the more I would prefer QS8s over bookshelfs goes double if you have multiple rows of seats.

Cheers,
Dean

Don't change the setting from 8 Ohm. The lower setting is required to receiver a UL rating, but only hurts performance of the receiver by limiting current.

Thanks ClubNeon

Good to know, never really understood the ohm rating anyways!

I have the Pioneer Elite VSX 21 TXH with 2 pairs of M22's hooked up on the left and right channel which would probably be more problematic than a single pair of M80's and I've had no problem.

I did some checking, price wise, with the combinations of M80 theater system and substituting QS8's out with M2, 3 and 22's in a 7 speaker system. You save with M2 and 3's but M22's are little higher. IE: 2-M80's, 1-VP180, 2-QS8's and 2-M2's comes in around $1,000 cheaper when compared with all QS8's. It's around $20 more with M22's compared with all QS8's. I was also playing with finishes so the numbers may be different with other finishes.

My real concern is timber matching all speakers for best sound. I know the VP180 plays well with the M80's but which of the bookshelfs are best suited in this combination?

Another reason I was looking at towers and bookshelf's is that when we watch movies I use the surround mode (DD or DTS), for TV we both prefer 7 channel stereo. We find TV not as good audible as movies and the 7 channel stereo seems better for TV. I'm not sure that all QS8's would be as capable as a bookself for clear dialogue in 7 channel stereo. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

Hey CatBrat

Do you mean that you've hooked a pair of speakers to one channel, IE: in series or parallel? Not sure what issues that would cause. At worse it may cause an overload, or not! Again not really up on this stuff. As I said earlier, ohm ratings are beyond me

I would still consider a sub, even with 80's all around. Even the 80's can't create the low LFE as intended in movies.

I'll agree with the good advice already given here. M80s or M60s would both work well as fronts esp if your not using a sub, and will both integrate well with the VP180 for which it was targeted for. Having said that, you should consider another possibility....you could use your M22's as fronts combined with the VP180 and a sub to cover the lower end. The M22s are still in the same "family" as the towers and SHOULD work well with the VP180 since many users have found the M22s(and sub) to be sonically close to the M80s. That combo could save you some $$, otherwise I'd go M60/80, VP180 and Q's as surrounds/rears, or M2's as rears if you have room behind the listening position so they can disperse properly.

You have pre-outs which is a bonus if you need to add an amp, but try your receiver out first, you may not require it and as Chris mentioned, leave the AVR on the 8 ohm setting.

I would think that running two 8 ohm speakers in parallel, would be a 4 ohm load. If that is true, then I've been running the equivalent of M80's on the smallest Pioneer Elite without a problem.

Thanks all for your input.

To answer the sub issue, I haven't used one in years and while the LFE is nice but I find I don't miss it...probably my neighbours too!

And the M22's are great speakers but the wife doesn't want stands so the M60 or M80's are my only option...besides it was her idea, please don't take away my bonus here! .

If I need a better amp then so be it, it's all good!

Sent you a PM

I power my M80's, VP150, and QS8's with a Pio Elite VSX-84TXSi
set at 8 ohms and it works fine.

I would certainly suggest trying the Pioneer on it's own and then add the amp should you feel it/you needs it.

Zute, first some comments on apparent misconceptions that you mention. If your Pioneer has a rated 110 watts/channel, you'll get at least that much "real" power since it would be against the law(FTC regulations)to use that rating otherwise.

As already mentioned, never use the lower impedance setting, since all it does it to reduce the voltage output and as a result, the maximum power capability.

You can't "bi-amp" with a receiver, despite any advertising claim to the contrary. The receiver has just one amplifier with one main power supply section, and this capacity can't be increased in any amount by adding extra wire connections.

Your Pioneer should have no problem in driving an M80/VP180 front line at all levels which won't endanger your hearing. The side surrounds should remain your QS8s. For back surrounds in a 7.0 setup another pair of QS8s would certainly be appropriate, but if you have enough room behind your listening position(say at least 6')for their sound to spread out, M2s would also be suitable back there.

Thanks for the info JohnK. I'm always learning something new here. Since my room is 20' deep I'm about 12' to 14' from the front leaving me ample room behind. So going with some M2 or 3's would work. Not that I'm totally against QS8's just trying to weigh my options.

If I do go with the small bookshelfs I assume I would mount them close to ear level. I know the QS8's are mounted above but with my current setup everything is ear level except the 8's.

And as you and others have pointed out my receiver should be fine and if it ain't I'll get something better suited.

Thanks everyone and good night!

My configuration is M22 fronts, VP150 center, QS8 side surrounds, and M2 rears with an SVS PC13 sub all driven by a pioneer VSX-45. I listen to stereo source material in 7 channel stereo mode and it sounds fine to me.

If I had to do without a sub I would want M80 fronts for their lower end capability, and the VP180 if I could rationalize the expense. I wouldn't change the sides or rears because I don't think there would be significant difference. Just my opinion of course.

Bill

Thanks wilworm

The only change I'd consider in your upgrade comment is using M3's instead of M2's for the rears. I believe they are a better match for the M80's...I think I read that here sometime ago - they may have been talking about the M60's instead, don't remember...getting to old to trust my memory!

Someone will chime in if this isn't correct.

The M2 would be the better match with the M80s.

The M80 and the M22 produce a much flatter response than the M60 and the M3. The M3 has a slight bass hump, and the M60 has 1 less tweeter and mid-range woofer. So, it looks to me that the M3 would be a better match with the M60.

Now, I'll probably get slammed by the M60 lovers.

Well, actually the M3 and M50s are more of a timber match. The M2, M22, M60 and the M80 have similar sound qualities.

Do you mean M50 instead of M60? The M50 and M3 have a lot in common.

I don't know if there are any M50 owners who frequent this board.

You're right, I forgot about the M50. But their still has to be some sonic difference in the M60 with fewer high end speakers that would cause it to be a better match with M3 than the M80. That's all I was thinking.

IMO the M80s, M22s, M2s and QS8s are as perfect a sonic match as you will find with any system of speakers. I can’t comment on other Axiom offerings since I haven’t heard them but based on the driver complement and comments from other assume that the VP180 is also a perfect match.

My room is 21 feet deep with the front of my M80s 4 feet off the front wall and my seating 12 feet from the mains, about 11.5 from the center which give me about 5-6 feet behind me. I’ve tried M22s, M2s and QS8s as rear speakers in this room and found no difference between the M22s and M2s. IMO the QS8s are marginally better as rears even at 5 feet because the way the spread out the sound helps them blend better with the QS8 surrounds. So if money is no object I would go with QS8 rears, however if you want to switch out to bookshelf rears I’d go with M2s.

IIRC the M22s and M60s were both designed to have the same "sound" as the M80s but in smaller enclosures (and with fewer drivers). The M2, M22, M60 and M80 are generally considered to have one "sound" (think of these as the 5-1/2" midrange family), while the M3, M40 and M50s have a slightly less "forward" sound (the "6-1/2" midrange family).

QS8s are supposed to have the same sound as M2... M80. Not sure which side of the family QS4s follow.

The Qs4 follow neither family, they have a slightly different tone/voice but close enough to work well witheither set.

Thanks grunt and everyone also for your personal experiences. This is exactly the info I'm looking for.

So now that the speaker question is answered the next is the power amp. I was looking at a prepro but from all your comments here I'll use my Pio as the pre and just add a power amp. While the list is huge my budget is not! I'd like to stay at $2000 or less. Let me know what you think.

Do you want a 7 channel amp or a 2?

Usual suspects for amplifiers are Emotiva(with some caution), Outlaw Audio, Anthem, Bryston, Axiom's own amps(used?). There is a myriad of used amps on the market. What I have been doing is checking out what is available used and then look to user reviews for quality concerns. AVS is a good source of people comlaining about this and that, you just have to sort through the minor complaints to find those that are valid.

I have hesitated on a coupls of used ones and missed out. Jakeman recommended a Sherbourn multichannel he saw and I waited a few days - too late.

7 channel - this is for home theater only.

How about a Marantz MM8003, I found one for about $1700 new. Haven't checked any reviews and it's really only the first one I've come across.

Hey jakewash, I've not seen any used Axiom amps yet. As for the others, are you looking in Craigelist or other online sites for the used products...I've only begun looking into this and don't know where to start! I don't want to scoop any deals you're onto but any info would be greatly appreciated.

Grab a Emotiva UPA-7 or combo XPA-2 and 5 over the Marantz, i am a Marantz fan but you wont feel the difference between the two, your wallet will.

http://emotiva.com/upa7.shtm

You could certainly save a lot of dough going with a 2 or 3 channel and using the receiver to run the other speakers.

Zute, as my previous reply and a couple of other comments indicate, at least at this time you should have no power amp question. It's highly likely that the one you have now in your receiver should do the job just fine. None of the Axiom speakers have any unusual power requirement and there are members using them with less powerful receivers than yours with no problem. In any case, you should try what you have now before spending more money.

Sound advice from all, sorry for the pun!

I do plan on trying the Pioneer first. I'm sure, as it been pointed out, that I won't have any issues using just my receiver. While it's not top-of-the-line it has severed me faithfully for some time. While it doesn't support HD audio it plays well using PCM for 7 channel.

I have always wanted seperates and I will get there one day. Just looking for any info that'll give me an understanding of what to consider and look for when an opportunity/deal comes along. I used to be very interested in audio, years ago, and I'm now only playing catch-up.

Again thanks for all your help and insights!

Been looking mostly on Canuckaudiomart.com

That's my preferred way of doing things. Your TV doesn't take MPEG2/AVC/VC-1 data streams, but full, decoded video frames. Why should the receiver be any different? It should just be sent full, decoded audio samples.

The PS3 is probably the best player for doing audio decoding/mixing. Unfortunately other manufacturers don't put enough effort into getting it 100% right.