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#384964 - 10/31/12 10:33 PM Re: Pre-Amps and Amps questions. [Re: JohnK]
AdrianD Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/09/12
Posts: 90
Loc: Maple, Ontario
Originally Posted By: JohnK
Even in Maple the amplification process has no capability to change the characteristics mentioned if other factors, especially sound level, are held constant. Amplifiers make the sound louder. That's it. No magic.

I hear what you're saying John... and it's true, somewhat. It applies to ideal/perfect amps, which indeed should not alter sound in any way. I guess that's the difficulty when comparing 2 really good, hi-end amps. But unfortunately amps are not created equally; otherwise, why are we even bothering with anything more than a cheap receiver from Best Buy? grin

Originally Posted By: cohesion
Hi Adrian,

Thanks for backing me up! I actually understand that the Emotiva monoblocks are quite good. It would be interesting to compare to the ADA1500.

Actually I'm in Maple too. Perhaps we should arrange a mutual listening swap? I should have my LFRs working soon too...

I am very interested in some auditioning; it would be very exciting comparing the ADA1500 with the Emotiva stuff.
Needless to say, I want to hear the LFRs; they should be amazing.
Just say the word, and we can certainly arrange something.

John, I would be honoured to have you for some auditioning as well, a beer or a coffee, and discuss further. I am truly interested in why do you believe there is no difference in sound between amplifiers.

As it happens, not long ago I had a chance to review two amps in the same class: Emotiva XPA-5 and ATI 1504 (ATI: Amplifier Technologies Inc. makes amps for Mark Levinson, Lexicon, Cary Audio, Theta Digital, B&K, etc, owning the later two.)
You can read about my findings here:
The Emotiva Lounge - XPA-5 vs ATI 1504

Edited by AdrianD (10/31/12 10:43 PM)
M80 v3, 2 x Emotiva UPA-1 Monoblocks, XPA-5, UMC-1 PrePro
Pro-Ject RPM Genie, Carver C2 Phono Preamp

#384971 - 11/01/12 12:23 AM Re: Pre-Amps and Amps questions. [Re: PaulCanada]
tomtuttle Offline

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8488
Loc: Tacoma
Can you describe your methodology?
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

#384975 - 11/01/12 02:33 AM Re: Pre-Amps and Amps questions. [Re: AdrianD]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10623
Adrian, I'm a long way from Maple(my reference to it was just to indicate that basic principles of audio technology of course still apply there), but your invitation is appreciated.

You appear to view this as a matter of mere personal "opinion", but on the contrary it's based on well-established principles of technology. All that amplifiers do is add more voltage so that there's enough to drive speakers to high volume levels. It would be rather amazing if simply doing this could somehow affect sound characteristics which have nothing to do with increased voltage. This applies to all amps, not just non-existent "perfect" ones. As long as the amplification is accomplished with audibly level frequency response and inaudibly low noise and distortion(achieved these days in even units of modest cost)nothing more can be done.

Of course, claims to the contrary are abundant, but when put to the(blind listening)test, they collapse for lack of support. The vintage Stereo Review blind listening tests remain unchallenged by later results(not just by stubborn disagreement)and illustrate the lack of reliability in open listening while knowing the identity of the unit involved. Note that the sometimes flowery descriptions of sound characteristics when heard openly under identical conditions before the blind sessions began disappeared when the brand labels and price tags did.

The editor of the Audio Critic summarised this basic point rather well in "Electronic Signal Paths Do Not Have a Personality!" . Failure to grasp this leads to a hopeless search for sound quality in basic amplification rather than concentrating time and money on features that matter(e.g., room EQ)and the many other variables that affect our listening enjoyment at home.

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.

#384986 - 11/01/12 10:23 AM Re: Pre-Amps and Amps questions. [Re: PaulCanada]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13571
Loc: Iowa
My caps provide a warm and powerfull punch in the gut sound over my Denon alone. smile
Anthem AVM60 Outlaw 7700 Emotiva A500 Epson 5040UB

#384989 - 11/01/12 01:02 PM Re: Pre-Amps and Amps questions. [Re: PaulCanada]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 11437
Loc: Central NH


I dunno. Reads the same to me. grin
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

#384992 - 11/01/12 01:33 PM Re: Pre-Amps and Amps questions. [Re: PaulCanada]
CatBrat Offline

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 6015
Loc: Milky Way Galaxy
I always remembered caps as a short, high pitched pop sound.

#384999 - 11/01/12 02:04 PM Re: Pre-Amps and Amps questions. [Re: PaulCanada]
Murph Offline

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6955
Loc: PEI, Canada
Good One Cat,
Please press the big red button found here.

Edited by Murph (11/01/12 02:04 PM)
With great power comes Awesome irresponsibility.

#385001 - 11/01/12 02:52 PM Re: Pre-Amps and Amps questions. [Re: Murph]
J. B. Offline

Registered: 01/19/11
Posts: 1291
Loc: Quebec, Canada
i don't dare push it, being cautious on the net.
call me what you want!

or: Axiom Gallery

#385007 - 11/01/12 07:40 PM Re: Pre-Amps and Amps questions. [Re: PaulCanada]
PaulCanada Offline

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 6
WOW! thanks for all the input!

Lots of great information provided here. I think I will add a new sub, and who knows maybe later add some amps. I dont have a big listening room and my denon can play pretty loud (hey I'm over 40 and the ears cant take it)

Thanks again for all the info


#385008 - 11/01/12 07:46 PM Re: Pre-Amps and Amps questions. [Re: PaulCanada]
dakkon Offline

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1863
Paul, my room is 17'X18' and is open to the rest of the house. This is part of where my extra power need was coming from... When i added a second sub, that was a significant improvement... More so than adding the extra 700W of power from the large stereo amp...

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