Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Bryston Model T Mini bookshelf speaker

Any plans on Axiom producing a three way bookshelf similar to Bryston's Model T mini. That would of course use the one inch tweeter and could have a 5.25 inch dedicated midrange speaker and use the 8 inch woofer that is in use in the EP125 subwoofer to allow it to extend down to 40 hz. I had to put off my planned purchase of a pair of M80's and came across the Model T mini on the internet and was very intrigued.

Dubious. Axiom doesn't make any other speakers with an 8" woofer.

http://bryston.com/products/speakers/Model_T_Mini.html#

Here a link to the Bryston Model T minis. My understanding is they where developed in conjunction with Axiom and are being produced at the Axiom factory.

I think Ian prefers to things that other companies don't do to differentiate his product from the rest. Though axiom had a hand in the design and building of the Model T Mini , that is James Tanner's vision. I personally like the 3 way design like the Model T Mini's and built my own using axioms drivers. The sound the same as my M2's ,which says to me that the size of the drivers is not relevant when using a sub to handle the low end.

Socketman, what your saying is true. I just think there is a market out there for that type of speaker. What size driver did you use for the woofer in the speakers you built?

I used drivers from the M80, 1x tweet, 1x 5.25 Mid, 1x6.5 woof and used a program called Xover 3 to design the crossover. I stuck close to the size of a M22 and also the crossover points Ian uses. Bear in mind I have never done any frequency response test or anything like that yet but they sound good to me,i use them mostly for 2 channel though they are on my surround sound receiver in my bedroom. I did it mostly because I already had the drivers, but also gave me a project to do in the shop. It was more expensive than if I had bought them already made but it was fun.

If Ian thought there was a market for it, he'd be making it already.

If you like the Brystons, you should buy them.

Just because it costs more and was developed with Axiom does not mean it is better.

Pricing is part of marketing.

Axiom makes terrific products. Axiom is an R&D company. They have spent the last 30+ years designing and marketing loudspeakers. I think it is pretty safe to assert that Ian has considered and tested just about every configuration.

Tomtuttle. The Brystons are a little out of my price range. I like the price to performance of Axiom speakers. I own a pair of the M2's that are set up in my bedroom and really enjoy them. Like I posted I was intrigued by the Bryston minis configuration and three way design in a bookshelf speaker. Axiom does not have a three way bookself. I figure the larger speaker enclosure would help them extend a little deeper than the M22's and the dedicated midrange would also give a little more detail and dynamics.

When I was at the factory last summer, Ian showed me an experimental speaker that sported the outstanding 8" driver from the EP400 sub although I forget what drivers were above it.

After many months of wonderful listening to my M2s plus an EP-400, I often wondered what a small floor stander using the M2 innards up top with the EP400 innards (with amp) on the bottom in one cabinet would sound like. I betcha it would be an absolute killer by being able to reach down ~20Hz (with variable bass gain) combined with the great articulation of the M2s.

It would be expensive though, but I would probably go for a pair...

TAM

Exlabdriver. Was the experimental speaker a floor stander or bookshelf?

I get your point. I do.

But to get a truly full-range passive speaker (let's arbitrarily say something that plays flat to 40Hz or so), you need not only a bigger driver but also a much bigger box. Axiom already makes full-range towers, and I'm sure if they could somehow bend the laws of physics to make them smaller, they would, as doing so could dramatically reduce their production and shipping costs.

So, I guess my question is, how much deeper than an M22 do you want this thing to go, or what do you want it to do that an M22 doesn't do? The M22 is Axiom's "big bookshelf" speaker, and I'm comfortable that it articulates Ian's design philosophy, which emphasizes off-axis response and low distortion.

As to a powered M2/EP400 in-one-box thing - again, look at the volume of the enclosure. Also, it's worth noting that the optimal placement for the transducers producing 80Hz and up is very rarely the optimal placement for the transducers producing lower frequencies. Since "The Room" is such an important component, you really get much greater flexibility by NOT having everything in one box.

Finally, some of the very best speakers I've ever heard are two-way designs.

I guess my point is, I'm sure Ian has already considered a bookshelf three-way for Axiom. So, I wouldn't hold your breath. No matter how much sense we might think it makes, the science and production are undoubtedly much more complicated.

IMO, the M22 doesn't go down to 80hz at a decent volume level where the sub takes over. This creates a hole in the frequency range. I've noticed very much so, when playing music, with the upper base notes missing. By adding the VP160 to the mix, I've noticed those missing notes as now being there.

You can look at graphs all day, BUT, if you don't hear it, then you don't hear it. I've owned a total of 9 M22's, 1 VP160, 1 VP150, 1 VP100, 1 M2, 1 EP350, and 3 QS8's.

Interesting. So, you were using an M22 as a center, then?

Can you give me some examples of the material that demonstrated the deficiency?

The most noticeable one is the Police concert on blu-ray, called "Certifiable".

Wasn't using M22 as a center. But I was using them as Mains. The 3 center's I've used are: M2, VP100, VP150, then the VP160 + M22 I now use.

The bass would have been coming from the Mains also, not just the center. If I have to, I'll swap the center with one of the mains just to see.

Too many variables for me.

What I can do is disconnect my two lower M22' mains. (I have 2 m22 mains. Upper and Lower.) Then connect the center channel output from the receiver to one of the Lower M22 mains. If I no longer hear the upper bass, then I will have proved my point. If I do hear the upper bass, I'll never mention it again. Fair?

Also, I'll try and test this using a frequency sweep that does one freq at a time and see if I can measure a difference. This might not tell me anything since there is a gap between each frequency.

ponch:

I really can't really remember as there was so much to look at in the factory & my memory is not what it used to be. I believe that it was a small floor-stander with a passive 8" EP400 driver - Ian pointed that feature out. Only Axiom knows, ha!!

tom:

With the way that one EP400 performs in my room, two could be over the top, but so accurate, gain adjustable & IMHO, very versatile. The cabinet would definitely be fatter & perhaps not as pleasing to the eye unless it was tapered. I'm not an expert on speaker design, but this is my fantasy based on my experience with my M2s + EP400.

Maybe I should just purchase another EP400 & get the best of both worlds - but I really don't need anymore bass output in my audio system.

TAM

Actually, all I have to do, is listen and measure with, and without, the VP160 being plugged into the mix. There is still an M80 plugged into the center channel.

Moving this discussion over to the Water Cooler, CatBrat thread here: http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=390890&#Post390890

Like to know what the the verdict from Ian was and the configuration on the experimental speaker with the eight inch woofer from the EP400 was.

Seems that the verdict is already out on Bryston Model T Series over on a couple of other forums - not good - most likely because 'you know who' builds them & I told them so.

Nobody has heard them & up to now, there are no definitive tests with measurements, etc; however, how they will sound has already been determined. I said BS - you have to listen for yourself before passing judgement - but of course I was chastised for that. I guess that they can tell how a car will perform or how an airplane will handle by looking at its picture. I certainly don't have those talents & now I feel so inadequate!

Even poor old Bob Carver's new towers are not being well received, even though no one has actually heard them either.

This is a strange pastime that defies logic & common sense. I just don't get it...

TAM

I don't understand it either. Why do a few ding dongs have such distain for Axiom. But they must know more than Mr. Tanner. Must be like road rage the "two tweeter thing" drives them CRAZY! I've done a lot of web research this weekend for 3 way bookshelfs and came across Wharfedale Jade 3 bookshelfs and going to give them a listen. But I'm going to keep my fingers crossed (but not hold my breath) that Axiom comes out with a bookshelf similar to the Model T Minis.

ponch:

If you have the magic powers that some seem to have, you shouldn't have to give them a listen - just look at the pictures & you'll know how they sound.

A pragmatic, common sense kinda guy like me has such trouble with these concepts...

TAM

Those are really nice looking speakers I bet they sound Fantastic.

No No, it isn't just how they look, you have to have the cast baskets, uber crossover components, ultra tweeters etc. before you can determine by looking and reading, how well a speaker will sound.

Guess I just don't have the same smarts as you all but them seem nice

We all have smarts and we sit on them alot

I didn't listen to the Minis but I had a chance to listen to the big Model T... naturally coupled with Bryston gear. I think they are phenomenal, but then I love Axiom. The interesting thing is that I had a friend with me who is not crazy about Axiom mainly because because he dislikes having many drivers in one speaker. That being said, my friend too was VERY impressed with the Model T.

As for the other forums... it's not even worth the time going there; they have exact same attitude towards Axiom as they have against another Company: Emotiva, which uses the same business model as Axiom. If I was to summarize the attitude, this would be my take:
"Hello; I'm in the market for speakers/amplifiers. I've heard about Axiom/Emotiva. What do you guys think?"
"Well, I've never owned or heard Axiom/Emotiva but... they suck big time. Don't buy."

I'm sure I have the same tendencies, but I really (intellectually, at least) think it's foolish to dismiss a speaker because of design decisions like quantity of drivers without giving them a listen. It's probably the same as dismissing a car based on the number of cylinders, but damned if I'm getting a minivan or SUV with less than a V-6. Heh.



EDIT: Stabs self for making car analogy. Ow.

Ha! Ken lifted the veil on his own car analogy!

It always comes down to the simple "The proof of the pudding is in the eating";
Nothing else.

There are also the "experts" who can tell the quality of a X-over just by having a look at a photo of it.

A photo of a crossover can tell you a lot about the crossover itself - type of resistors, inductors, caps, order/slopes, typology.

True, but is there an audible difference between standard quality components & the highest end uber-expensive components? Perhaps, however, I believe that was largely put to rest when AH visited Axiom & listened to standard vs high end xovers - no audible difference - and that is with golden-eared 'experts'. Ian proved his point & design philosophy. Some, for whom this stuff is a religion, bristle at this pragmatic approach.

While it is important for many to have these exotic components & are willing to pay a premium for them, personally I don't really care. As long as standard components are cost effective, do their job, sound good & last a reasonable amount of time before failure, that's what impresses me.

BTW, bracing in the Model-T cabinets is the big deal now - again pre-judgments & assumptions are being made by looking at exterior pics of the cabinets. My brain just can't go there...

TAM

I've been browsing, hours on end, all these other forum boards you speak of.

...It's exhausting the majority of the time.

These "experts" have seemed to lost touch with what really matters.

Bottom line is, if it sounds great to me...it IS great. No amount of graphs, technical comparisons or technical conjecture is going to change that or prove something is better.

I love the look of the new brystons and love knowing the connection they have to Axiom.

I for one am very excited to be an Axiom owner for the first time. My order will be placed in the next couple of weeks.

If you think that it is exhausting browsing, just try participating. It is emotionally draining for me because I don't like to be involved in conflict, especially now that I'm older; however, even though I prefer lurking, I think that getting involved needs to be done despite how much flak that I take. Last Sunday I spent virtually the whole day responding to numerous contentious issues mostly involving Axiom - I could hardly keep up. Being a common sense kinda guy like most folks here, this is really difficult for me to endure.

One good thing came of it though, another courageous AVS member started a 'New Official Axiom Owners Thread' with a preamble that stated what was & wasn't appropriate to post there. So far, civility has prevailed & it hasn't been overly active (it has sunk to page 3), but it is a nice change...

TAM

Yeah I can totally understand your frustration.

I read that axiom owners thread and it's refreshing to see.

I still can't understand how religious some of those members are when it comes to this stuff. It just can't simply sound good to ones personal taste anymore

I feel ya Tam. That relentless BS from gt can make me crazy. We should show him some Tektron Pedragons, they have 3 tweeters, egads I just gave up, he just doesn't get it. Normal people rant ,get it out of their system and get on with life. I feel its only important that we share our positive experience without acknowledging his posts,thus not feeding the troll. Happy Saturday to all.

I've recently learned to choose my words more carefully so as to minimize antagonizing anyone personally; however, it is hard to hold back sometimes...

TAM

You have shown great restraint and have been quite diplomatic. I on the other hand did less well. lmao

Well to console myself after all of my mental anguish, I just went to Future Shop & picked up a new Sony KDL55HX850. Because they are mostly sold out everywhere, including the entire USA, I thought that I'd better grab one before they are all gone:

http://www.futureshop.ca/en-CA/product/s...e173caba266en02

It's the one with the Gorilla Glass & one step below the very expensive XBRs. It seems to be very highly rated in all of the reviews that I've read & it looked really good in the store - mind you, they all do these days. It's the end of the model year so it is about $800 off the original retail price - plus there is FS's 30-day price match guarantee.

My old Sony 50" XBR RP LCD from 2003 (on its second bulb) is about to be retired after over 10 years of flawless service. I paid $7000 with a stand & required a pickup truck to bring it home whereas this one just slid into the back of my Venza. I'll miss the old girl...

TAM

Instead of having to guess from the look of the outside, here is a picture of the Model T before the parts are installed. Brace yourself: it's baffling to us how some people think this speaker is anything other than a beast! That's a 1.5 inch thick front baffle and one pile of intricately positioned braces!

Sweet! Now that is a tower, what vinyl/veneer is that? Very nice!

That is Zebra Wood and it is a real wood veneer. The Model T is available in both vinyl and real wood veneers. James just did not see any down side to giving people the option. There are also custom exotic woods available like this Zebra Wood.

very nice! thanks for the picture.

I love the zebra wood look a lot.

Looks like a beefy design

I get almost irritated with the constant jabs I can find all over the internet. I'm reading the audioholics review of the Bryston Model T loudspeaker and this quote makes me want to punch someone in the face lol...

"This is simple because Bryston partnered with Axiom to create their new line. But just because they look similar, doesn't necessarily mean they are the same or maybe perhaps "similarly good"."

Ian, that Model T is a work of art.

Now let's see what direction the pre-judging, speculation & assumptions will take now...

TAM

Ian,
Any plans for a 3 way bookshelf similar to the Model T Mini?

Currently there is nothing in the way of a 3-way bookshelf lurking around the laboratory (except the Mini T of course, which recently moved beyond the lab.) Our attention has been on the Airplay speaker and the subwoofers. Once that schedule settles down a bit we'll see what people are interested in next for new Axiom models, with your suggestion now in mind, thanks.

Do these use Axioms v3 tweeter (logo removed)?

No matter what axiom does or doesn't do certain individuals will continue to make jabs strictly because it is in their nature ,they love conflict.

Many speaker manufacturer's use the resonance of the cabinet as part of its sonic signature and said resonance is by design. In my opinion given the surface area and size of drivers the M80 doesn't require bracing. If I could hear this resonance I would be upset,but alas I cant,and seriously using an accelerometer to prove resonance is ridiculous.

Axioms are a fantastic value for what you get and if you don't like what's on offer their are more than enough choices to go around.

Ian, since i'm lazy and don't want to pull any drivers out of my LFR's right now..


How thick is the front baffle on the LFR's, for comparison...

Ian, I was able to find one comment of interest in the Audioholics article on the Bryston speakers. The TC1 center speaker has the tweeters in the middle, rather than flanking the mid-range drivers as in the VP180. Was there later research which indicated that this configuration had more advantages?

Thank you for the reply Ian.

good question

?

I may as well put all the answer in this post.

The Bryston line was a ground up design and all the drivers were modified to suit each speaker. Even within the Bryston line up there are three versions of the 8” and two versions of the 5.25”. I should like to add that it has been a real pleasure working with the Bryston on this project; they have a real passion for great audio products.

The LFR1100 has a ¾” front baffle and seven stagger spaced window braces. For both the LFR1100 and the Bryston Model T every speaker is measured in our big chamber where it can be held to very tight tolerances.

The 8” drivers in the Bryston Centre Channel speaker ended up making it better suited to have the two tweeters in the centre. Designing multi-driver systems, especially when there is more than one tweeter, is a challenging endeavour and it will not always end up as you first envision it. The first R&D samples of the Bryston Centre Channel did have the two 5.25” drivers in the centre. When designing multi driver systems the individual curves can be pretty wild looking but our research shows that what you actually hear is an averaging of all these curves put into “various buckets” you might say. Beyond this the overall effect is something we seem to find quite pleasing. Up until about 15 years ago I was from the camp that would not believe that multiple driver designs, especially multiple tweeters, could ever be beneficial. But, when done the right way, it was quite telling in the listen test results; enough to force my switchover.

Whooohoo. No more avoiding car analogies. Ken has broken down, gone to the dealers and come out with the keys.

It was a momentary slip, like a worn out clutch.





OH MY GOD.

Ken, I'm going to throttle you when you get back.

OK guy,s time to put the brakes on this car analogy stuff and park it.

Nice job stalling the conversation.

Is it time to throttle things up a bit?

Thank you for the picture Ian; I tapped the Model T, I listened to it but I didn't think it has such a bracing system.
I asked the nice people from Bryston to rise the volume level a bit, not crazy loud but loud enough for me: I think these speakers are phenomenal.

A subjective but nice 'Model T' User Review from 'Zissou' in the AVS Speaker Forum:

Just a few observations from the first few hours with the Bryston Model T speakers. I haven’t had nearly enough time with them but in my experience what we perceive in the first little while doesn’t tend to change too much. These really are quite unlike any other speakers

Firstly, these are very warm and musical speakers in the best possible way whilst they reflect all that is happening in a recording they do not do it in a cold or clinical way this is far preferable over “audiophile” speakers and the recent trend to tilt the treble up in an etched manner.

The bass is well extended and “quick” transients are preserved and well served. I have measured useful response down to 20hz, indeed these are full range speakers.

The highs at first caused me some puzzlement I was not sure I was getting the full measure of the treble. This was put to rest while listening to some of my reference classical pieces.
High frequency instruments such as bells were placed PROPERLY in the sound stage while other speakers tended to push them forward. While I do not think this is the most refined tweeter, most apparent on rock recording and cymbals, I believe it is a perfect match for these speakers and their overall coherence which is about as good as it gets in dynamic speakers. In terms of dynamic range one of Bryston's stated goals was to limit compression and I think this goal has been met.
No speaker has unlimited dynamics as we know but the Model T is certainly in the top tier of this parameter indeed full range symphony recordings are superbly reproduced this is a great speaker for fans of Mahler’s somewhat overwrought symphonies.
Susskind’s reading of Jupiter from Holst’s Planets (listening in DSD) is a true joy to listen to on these speakers.

The sound-staging is a revelation in this size speaker and price point. Depth is rendered in a wonderful manner and the layering within that depth is appropriate, well sized and accurate. This is a true revelation as other speakers the equal of these are at a much higher price point sometime 4 to 5 times as much. What Bryston has achieved, re their design goals, will be a game changer. As these become better known there will be a lot of sleepless nights for speaker designers and marketing departments in other companies.

To sum up these are superb transducers that punch well above their rather silly cheap price point. These speakers have the potential to truly shake up the high end industry and THAT is something that is long overdue.

Priced at $6495 a pair.

TAM

I'm glad he's happy. I don't want a parallel AVS flame fest or anything, but saying that $6495 a pair is "stupid cheap" detracts from his credibility. And I'm calling BS on "useful" 20Hz response.

I'm sure it's a great speaker. But that review just smacks of audiophilia in the worst connotations. I'm flabbergasted that there is no mention of wires.

Congrats to Axiom and Bryston for a job apparently very well done.

Let's face it, for $6495.00 he better be happy! No bookshelf speaker is worth that kind of money.

Maybe he is 'stupid rich'...

TAM

I want to apologize for my reaction.

I thought that the review was related to the Model T MINI discussed earlier in this thread.

The much larger Model T floorstanders seem to be rated down to 25Hz.

I'd love to hear them someday.

No problem; however, I was just over at AVS & the Model T post is gone without a trace. Strange...

TAM

More than likely they pulled the post after they read the company brochure about the speaker. Essentially , it stated on the last page that "without the help of Axiom, the project of developing and building this speaker would have never happened".

After all the glowing attributes in the review and then looking looking at the trolls that bash Axiom on the sight,once again, their credibility, (what there is left of it) takes another hit.

I went over there again this morning & even did a search of the AVS Speaker Forum - it is completely gone with no trace. Interestingly the poster had over a thousand posts there.

I'm not going to speculate nor query it there but at we at least have a copy here & I'm glad that I caught it before it departed the scene...

TAM

Was curious and did a "Zissou" search over there. Found a reference to two posts deleted and a fragment of one being "Now I remember why I left this forum years ago."

Definetly a mystery for sure. I went to his profile ,shows he was online 13hrs ago. Last post was in march. I sent him a message inquiring minds want to know .

Zissou says he pulled the thread himself since it was going sideways.

Weird!

I was going to thank him for his review if someone else had started the ball rolling but it never happened. I didn't want to spawn more controversy.

Just as well I guess...

TAM

I just found this older thread after researching images on Google for the Model T construction.... very impressive

Plus the Zebra wood is gorgeous. My pair of Model T's are in Santos Rosewood; they are a work of art; precision cabinet work

I want one. Slim, please buy one for me.