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#77539 - 01/17/05 10:05 PM Re: "Stereo's Intrinsic Flaw"
Michael_A Offline

Registered: 02/07/04
Posts: 418
All I can tell you is that some of the most poorly recorded CDs in my collection can be "rescued" by playing them in DTS:neo6, Logic 7, or Dolby Pro Logic.

These modes can make some good recordings sound "funky" at times, though.
M- M60s/VP150/QS8s/SVS PC-Ultra/HK630 Sit down. Shut up. Listen.

#77540 - 01/17/05 11:09 PM Re: "Stereo's Intrinsic Flaw"
joema Offline

Registered: 12/21/03
Posts: 273
Loc: Nashville, TN
In reply to:

...Do we really want to feel immersed in the middle of a band?

In many cases I must answer yes.

A common argument against multichannel sound is that it's unnatural -- that the ultimate goal is to reproduce the live audience experience.

I would argue the ultimate goal is obtaining the most satisfaction possible from the reproduced music, regardless of how closely that mimics the original acoustic experience.

In some cases the experience is richer and more vivid if the acoustic pallet is spread around you. Heavily layered instrumental music may be in this category. A perfect example is Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon. However unnatural to have sounds all around you, it sure sounds great.

Other more simple arrangements place the performers up front and use surround for ambiance, not placing instruments or performers beside you. That's a different but equally valid use of surround.

I personally like heavily instrumental multitracked music, so the "immersed in the band" paradigm is fine with me.

In fact it's really little different from headphones, which some people find very satisfying.

There's no question the mixing engineer must exercise skill and discretion, and it's easy for a multichannel mix to become contrived, artificial, and gimmicky.

But the best multichannel mixes show "how it's done". It need not be artificial and hokey.

#77541 - 01/18/05 10:08 AM Re: "Stereo's Intrinsic Flaw"
Riffman Offline

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 242
The only times I feel immersed in the music is in a church listening an organ or in a symphonic concert hall. With most rock shows, it seems as though the sound is coming from in front of me (it is).

#77542 - 01/18/05 10:13 AM Re: "Stereo's Intrinsic Flaw"
Riffman Offline

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 242
John, sometimes I'm convinced that you enjoy the science behind all this as much or more likely even more than the music. True?

As much as you would like to quote measurements, blind testing, etc.., I'm one who thinks we still have a way to go with the science behind all this.

I'm also sorry that you cannot hear the difference between a good player and a bad player. Its awfully pretentious of you to run around here all the time and imply that people are gullible and are easy targets. Its bullshit.

#77543 - 01/18/05 10:44 AM Re: "Stereo's Intrinsic Flaw"
Capn_Pickard Offline

Registered: 03/09/04
Posts: 1056
Loc: Arlington, VA (NOVA)
Wow. Riffman. Settle down, tiger. We're all just expressing our points of view. Please try to do it in a constructive way (without stooping to name calling and use of profanity). Nobody's shunning your point of view. We're just trying to hash out the subject so that we all might have a better understanding of both the nature of stereo vs. multi-channel surround and maybe get a grasp of where the market is heading (as per your original, and interesting, thread topic.)

Take a deep breath, dude.

#77544 - 01/18/05 10:56 AM Re: "Stereo's Intrinsic Flaw"
bigjohn Offline

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
YES, deep breath........n thn hold 't....


#77545 - 01/18/05 11:08 AM Re: "Stereo's Intrinsic Flaw"
Riffman Offline

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 242
I think I understand the topics here. Until JohnK jumped in, there was no talk of "gullible people" or of "simple facts known for decades". I call that pretentious because it is.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that I never said multi channel music wasn't superior. I said I would prefer two channel music on really good equipmnet over multi channel music on poor equipment. And, I have also implied a slight disappointment that a certain consumer segment will chooses poor equipment and more speakers over better equipment and less speakers. Then JohnK had to step in with his usual straw man bit regarding scientific proof, gullible people, simple facts, etc.. Pretentious indeed. I never argued that multi channel music on the *same great equipment* is worse than two channel stereo. I don't think anyone here said that. geezus.

I could play the same stupid game and talk about how some people have wooden ears but I won't.

Edited by Riffman (01/18/05 11:09 AM)

#77546 - 01/18/05 11:52 AM Re: "Stereo's Intrinsic Flaw"
player8 Offline

Registered: 01/19/04
Posts: 521
Loc: PHX/Flagstaff, AZ
Gotta agree with Riff here. While his post did seem sort of defensive, I can see why John's post would offend him. Now, I respect John's opinions and he has helped me many a time with tips and some facts (the ones that I actually believe in any way) but we must all admit that sometimes he can comeoff as Riff put it, "pretentious."

If reflected sound was key, we would all be listening to Bose...

#77547 - 01/18/05 12:06 PM Re: "Stereo's Intrinsic Flaw"
BigWill Offline

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
How could one take offense at what John said, but not at what a previous poster said regarding audio, Apple v PC, the bread at Subway, etc...?

(BTW, I like the rolls at Subway - baguettes are too hard and crusty. You have to use too much force to break through the crust, causing all the sandwich fillers to squirt out the sides. Then you wear out your jaw muscles working on that crusty old bread. You can keep that fancy bread. )

#77548 - 01/18/05 12:11 PM Re: "Stereo's Intrinsic Flaw"
player8 Offline

Registered: 01/19/04
Posts: 521
Loc: PHX/Flagstaff, AZ
I agree with the Subway bread comment Will, I'm not one for fancy bread, cheese, meats, or anything else that makes foreign cuisine so much better than my macaroni and cheese or ham sandwiches on Holsum Bread.

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