Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater HSU VTF3 MK2 VS. EP350 Showdown!! Plus a suprise!

As mentioned in a thread in the Advice forum, I invited a friend over with his HSU sub. I wanted to hear his sub, he wanted to hear real speakers (he somehow spent $600 on a good sub and $299 on BIG RETAIL main/center/surround speakers!). When he showed up, there was a suprise: A friend of his from work with a brand new SV Subs PB12-ISD2! Wow! Please refer to the manufacturers websites if you want to look up the partik's. This will be a very subjective, non-technical comparison/review. The electronics used are in the signature at the end of this post. Also, please note my system is new and was really dialed in to my satisfaction yesterday. So I, as well a the others at the showdown, were listening with "un-broken-in" ears.

First, the EP350. This sub is really a nice looking piece. I have the "Boston" Cherry, and even from FO, it just looks great. I really had a hard time placing this sub properly. When I finally got it right, I was amazed by the musicality. I ended up with the crossover at 60Hz, but it really is quite detailed until you get to the very bottom of its frequency range. It acquitted itself well playing such selections as "Moanin'" by Charles Mingus, "DSOTM" by Pink Floyd, "Jar of Flies" by Alice in Chains, and "Bitches Brew" by Miles Davis. One track in particular can be tricky for subs. "I Stay Away" by Alice in Chains has very prominent bass that is EQ'd FAT and DEEP. Wimpy or ill-designed subs will just produce an ill-defined, uneven rumble. I used this
track among others when placing the 350 and other subs, and
the 350 produced this track with authority, with nice definition and just the slightest trace of boom in a couple of parts, but not enough to be distracting. In 5.1, we noted
a few problems. First off, I played a THX test pattern. I understand this pattern pushes below the 350's stated requency response, but it really boomed down low. Closer to
the sub, I could hear just a tiny bit of chuffing, but this wasn't audible from the listening area (Note, in 5.1 I'm running the 350 with the volume set to 60% or so on the sub and -2 on the Denon. My room gets loud without having to crank things too much). In Star Wars: TPM there is many, many ultra-low passages when spacecraft land or fly by, during the Pod Racing scene, etc. There is one passage early
in the movie(didn't write down the chapter #) when a spaceship flies over from behind in preparation to land. This scene cause some of the same booming the THX pattern did. To be fair, this scene pushes lots of sound below 20Hz
all the way to 10Hz. The 350 really did well during the Pod
Scene, which has all sorts of strange-sounding LFE sounds from the pods. The pods all sounded fantastic. So, the 350 in our opinion played music very nicely, has nice "butt-shaking" capability, but has a little problem down around say 25Hz at high SPL. I think it is a good all around
sub.

The HSU is not the prettiest box I've seen. As a matter of fact, it's downright ugly. Looks like somebody sprayed it with wall texture and painted it with Krylon. But their motto of sorts is "form follows function," so I won't dwell on it. To keep this simple, the HSU wasn't quite as musical,
sticking to the same tunes, as the '350. It is tight, almost
a little "over-punchy," but it didn't sound quite as subtle
as the '350. It was a little harder to blend with the mains,
due to its punchiness. The M22's have nice, clean, smooth bass and the HSU is more in your face. Now 5.1, on the other
hand, is where the HSU stepped up. We noted lower, tighter sound when extending down to the depths. The THX pattern was
startling. It still rolled off at the lowest notes, but it held on longer than the '350. The pod scenes didn't tax it at all. It dropped out evenly at the lowest tones during the spaceship flyover at the begginning. So, we give the HSU
a couple of demerits on musicality, but kudos on 5.1. Nice sub, and cheap. Flat ugly though.

The PB12 is in a slightly different class pricewise and in
configuration. With 2 12" woofers and a 600W amp, and an $899 base price, we expected more out of this sub, and we got it. BOY, did we ever get it. This was the easiest sub to
place to get good sound. We almost could have placed it anywhere. And from the first note, we were blown away. This
sub is an instrument. I mean, it is flat out musical. I never thought I would write that this brute is subtle and even delicate in its sound. But it is. And when you get to an industrial strenght, heavy duty song or section, it is absolutely clean and clear and very powerful. Whoa Nelly, is it powerful. This thing wasn't even breathing hard by the time we got it to the wall-flexing level. Zoiks! (Note, we
had the port tuning plugs set to 25Hz for music). And it blended very nicely with the M22's (I am falling deeply in love with those little speakers. More on that in another post). Now 5.1. We tuned the ports to 16HZ. Well, I'm just
astounded. Flat out astounded. It's almost effortlessly powerful. The THX pattern was just a titanic monolith of bass power. Sure, it couldn't reach that 10Hz note, but nothing under $1k that I've heard of can. The pod scene was
spectacular, the flyover was breathtaking. One note on appearance: It's nicely built and shaped, but the textured black finish is almost as hideous as the HSU. But it's hard
to notice when looking at it with the lustful eyes of a person who just listened to it at high SPL's.

All in all, we came out very pleased with our own subs. The
EP350 was excellent at music, and very good at 5.1. At this price range it seems to be a great value as an all-around performer. The HSU lacked some of the EP's musicality, but
flexed it's muscle in 5.1. Not all that great to look at, though. If you watch 5.1 movies more than you listen to music, this is another excellent value. Don't be swayed by
the music part though. It did fine. We just thought it wasn't quite as good in that area.

The PB12 is astounding. Now, if you include shipping, it is
almost a whole high-quality Universal disc player more expensive than the other 2. But we were simply awestruck by this sub. It does everything extremely well without seeming to work hard at all. SV, will you PLEASE give it a better finish?

That's all folks!

PS: While collecting my thoughts and preparing this post, my Sound Guru worked on placement of the EP350 a little more. He moved it to the other side of the rig, inboard of the RF speaker, and more centrally located between the RF and the AV stand. This move was dramatic, removing the "boominess" we were getting earlier. Has to do with the 5' opening into the next room, we decided. In our minds, this change put the '350 ahead of the HSU as an all-around sub as far as this showdown goes. -MF

Mark

Very cool!!

Your friend must have the same model VTF-3 I have....with the spray on "truck bed liner" type finish. They stopped making that one almost two years ago. Front firing...right? How was it tuned? Did you mess with placement on all the subs like the 350?

The finish was not pleasant. It's well-done, I suppose, but the choice of finish material is lacking. We had it in "Output
Mode" for music and "Extension Mode" for 5.1. Sounded best this way. We tried both of the configurable subs in all available modes and found that the both sounded better tuned to 25Hz for music and lowest extension mode (The SV has 3 modes) for 5.1. I forgot to mention the modes for the HSU in the original post. Thanks for bringing up the point. And yes, it was VERY cool blasting away all day with these subs.
I'm impressed by all 3, and all for under $1k! Now, I have never heard a $20K sub in context, just at expos and store listening rooms where I have no reference except direct comparisons with other speakers in that room. But I wonder if there is really a subwoofer that sounds $19,000 better than any of these three? Kind of like, does a Ferrari really
drive $100,000 better than a 'vette? I really do wonder.

Oops! Forgot to address your other question: Yes, front firing. And I just called my friend. He bought it 1 year ago, new, on Ebay. (bringing up HSU website) Uh-oh! It's an original VTF3!! I think he was had on Ebay! It never occured to me that the sub could be anything other than a MK2, his being the only HSU I have ever seen, and knowing he paid for (what he thought was) a MK2! This point also changes the results of the whole showdown!!! *Sigh*. Now I have to call him back and tell him the bad news. I didn't tell him why I was asking about it just now, so I could confirm the identity of the sub. He can be a little gullible, especially
on Ebay. OH, The Humanity!!!

PS: If the MK2 is an improvement over the original, it must be a real performer!

WOW! Really nice job, Mark. Very readable, and understandable. Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts.

Thanks for a great report !

So... I have to ask. Did you ever think about getting a splitter cable and hooking all three up at the same time ?

brigman wrote:

So... I have to ask. Did you ever think about getting a splitter cable and hooking all three up at the same time ?

"And it was Said, and I quoteth

'And the apple was held forth, and Temptation tooketh hold of
Geek. But Geek remained stalwart, and resisted Tempation. And Temptation retreated, leaving Geek in Audio Nirvana unspoilt....'"

Or, too lazy to head to Rat Shack.

Mark

That post just pushed me into addict status.

Step One: I admit that I am powerless over my addiction to audio and audio forums...

Yeah.....hooking up all three at the same time would have been a nice test of how well your house is built!

The biggest different with the Hsu VTF-3MK2 is the new amp....adds more dynamics.

Actually, it's addict junior that you are in. There are two addict levels. You've got a ways to go for the main one.

Mark:
Excellent, excellent review! Thanks for taking the time to share!

Nice job Mark! It's nice to see the 350 hold its own against the HSU. The SVS is looking like a nice upgrade opportunity from my 20-39 PCi.

Addict junior indeed, we had a poll a while back about what they should change the first addict status too but it was never changed...

Makes me feel proud of my PB12-Plus/2

Misfit Toy: MY SVS BROTHER!!!

- D

Something about this "review" just doesn't smell right. I cannot quite put my finger on it, but it looks like the thread originator is really deep-down an SVS schill looking to pimp their product. These people exist for SVS on virtually all internet audio forums across the net.

We are on an Axiom board, so you needed to give some (albeit very few) props to the Axiom sub mentioned.

Hsu is by far SVS's closest competitor, so you needed to spread some bad word about the Hsu sub mentioned (not to mention the "my friend got it from ebay" comment, so that no one can identify the owner).

The entire "review" was written in such a way to set up the behemoth SVS as the king for music and movies.

Anyone who has carefully listened to an SVS will know that they are more suitable for big bang movies. Describing them as a musical instrument is laughable, and clearly shows that something is amiss here.

All things considered, just too convenient to be an honest review.

Hi Mark,

Thank you so much for sharing your experience. I think your comments go a long way in helping people appreciate, albeit anecdotally, that the Axiom subs are of very high quality, even with respect to the current pervasive internet buzz about other companies.

I'm happy to read some subjective comments (sounds more "musical", etc.); frankly, I think people focus too much on the notion that sub performance is completely quantifiable. I don't understand why subwoofers would be immune to the same premise that we apply to other speakers - that some models simply sound "better" TO ME and some are going to sound better TO YOU.

I am not surprised that the significantly more expensive SVS was preferred. Again, it is an old saw worth repeating: making a good loudspeaker is not difficult, but making a good loudspeaker for an attractive price is an accomplishment.

Finally, I really appreciate your comments about room placement. We all fiddle with that, but hearing that you worked through it thoroughly with numerous models AND got meaningful results form the changes is encouraging to everyone, and a good reminder that room boundaries play a very important part in the listening experience.

Thanks again for your thoughtful and candid review.

In reply to:

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All things considered, just too convenient to be an honest review.

---

I don't agree.

Of course, no one ever knows for sure, but I read it as a subjectiv overview of this persons' informal testing session and opinion. I think if it were a propoganda posting, it would have been much more slanted.

Not to dump on a newbie here, but your comment of "Anyone who has carefully listened to an SVS will know that they are more suitable for big bang movies." tells me that you are biased right up front. Sweeping generalizations that you know how everyone hears things, percieves them, and prefers them raises a big flag with me!

EDITED: Plus, I'll add the fact that Mark has been here for a short while, while you just showed up today.

Remember our new policy?

I stand by my comments 100%. Let's face it, if musical subtlety is your game, then SVS is generally not the best choice. There are dozens of other people who share the same opinion, even many SVS owners. I actually prefer the Axiom sub sound quality overall. I am actually flabbergasted that there is so much talk about non-Axiom subs at the Axiom message boards!

I am also well aware of the lengths that SVS will go to in order to take business away from their competition, and that includes mainly Hsu, but also Axiom and everyone else. The situation is so out of hand that you can't even trust many of the self-appointed forum reviewers these days.

Jimmy-

Yawn. Don't try to entice a hardcore (not to mention professional) computer geek into a flame war. We are immune to such infantile tactics. For what it's worth: I am not the only person either present at my showdown or around the audio community including respected professional critics that has been surprised by the musicality and subtleness of the SVS. What you may or may not have heard from the PB12 is your opinion and that is fine. But I'm keeping my EP350. Now that I have it dialed in, it's a great performer. I suppose I am now a "shill" for Axiom.

BlueStater - It's ok buddy, some of us know the truth when we see it.

Let me also point out that SVS does not consider Axiom subs to be a serious threat. The only real threat to their dominance is Hsu Research. Word on the street is that SVS is going to lose their SPL crown after Hsu Research's new product line rolls out, so the marketing wheels have already started churning for the company.

How about you two guys just ignore each other on this subject, so we dont have to.
I'm not saying either of you are right or wrong, and I'm sure both of you have something positive to add to this forum, but let this one go.....PLEASE.

The SVS PB+2 is astounding for home theater. But when listening to music that is not bass heavy I usually dont use it. You have to adjust the settings on it too much depending on the CD, it is almost always too much. As far as it being musical, I havent decided yet. I still need more listening time with it. Usually the M80s are enough for me, unless I just want to get stupid and show off.

Jimmy1 - let's cut down on the accusatory and harsh language. When you make your introduction to these message boards with a post that, in nearly its first line, calls someone a "shill," we're off on the wrong foot.

Find another way to express yourself, please, without resorting to such name calling. The latin thinkers call what you have just done the "ad hominim fallacy" - that is attacking the person instead of his argument. I don't disagree about your points. We need to make sure that we have all of the information before we allow ourselves to be blindly led into a conclusion by someone with a particular agenda. But there's a better way to communicate this warning than to call someone a "shill."

Put a cap on that flame thrower for a bit, and try to be a little more constructive (as opposed to destructive). We can all spot a flamer from a mile away, and you're blazing red hot right now.

So, if you're really interested in having a constructive conversation, I don't think it would be too much to ask, as a sign of good faith, that you apologize to BlueStater and try to tone down your rhetoric.

Not a sermon, just a note of caution.

(This is me ignoring the bait)

Does anyone else notice a faint whiff of GD? An empty buffet usually means the diners go home.

I have a case of the Monday's like Peter Gibbons from Office Space, and I can't find my red stapler either, so I'm sorry for being testy. I just hate to see any of these Axiom boards being used to market another company's products, and I finally snapped after months of reading.

Looking forward to some good country friend chicken buffet tonight.

jimmy1,

That's the spirit. I, for one, accept your excuse -- perhaps you need to wear more pieces of flair? -- and welcome you to the boards.

If there's one thing that most of us here are mindful of, it's the immense privilege of openness we enjoy from the moderators. Axiom's founder, himself, has mentioned that he's learned a few things from some of the posts on this board. In fact, Axiom's amazing new subs, the EP500 and EP600, were inspired by a post here. If we were not allowed to speak frankly about all of Axiom's products, this site would be nothing but a fawn-fest, and Axiom would miss out on a lot of constructive, if indirect, feedback.

Rest assured that true corporate shills do not last long here.

Oh for the love of.... Jimmy, please please please read my previous posts and tell me if you see ANY evidence that I have EVER mentioned SV Subwoofers anywhere. No? Thought so. That being said, there is no reason for me to back down from the following truth:

In MY room with MY components and MY source material the SVS
outperformed the other two subwoofers. Being that it costs $400 to $500 more than the others after shipping, well, it just plain should. If I had ordered the EP500 would the results be different? I would guess so. I don't think this forum exists to simply exhalt Axiom products as the end all
be all of loudspeaker technology. As a matter of fact, my guess is that a large percentage of posters here use Axioms as PART of their speaker setup. Just because I picked the SVS doesn't mean I am anti-Axiom in any way. You put three
of anything together in a side-by-side comparison and pick one. Is it the one everyone else would pick, or is it the one you liked best?

This is my last response on this sub-topic.

Mark

In reply to:

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perhaps you need to wear more pieces of flair?

---

looks like were not in kansas anymore?

i sure am glad cooler heads have prevailed here.. i was gonna comment earlier, but i figured it would just add fuel to the flame. but, we all had some coffee, got our bearings straight, and worked it out.

BTW- i am an 'official' axiom shill, i just aint got my first royalties check yet.

EDIT..... maybe i spoke too fast?

bigjohn

Bluestater - I still think that something smells wrong with this review. Obviously, I can't prove you wrong, but I still have a strong gut feeling that all in not right. SVS is very clever, because they know that no one can prove their fans wrong, even when there may be reason to question these findings. SVS also has very deep pockets and directly influences the decisions of several websites. The only other thing I can suggest is that the Axiom and Hsu subwoofers in question were not properly set up per company guidelines.

The last time I felt this rotten was when Axiom got shafted against ecoustics advertiser SVS in that B. Mitchell ecoustics.com review. Guess which other company got shafted in the same review? Hsu Research. Go figure.

Jimmy , -- you need a cover sheet on your TPS report --

JaimeG, take that TPS report and shove it!

You f*cked Blumberg?!

Lumberg!

Shh, don't tell anyone, or you are Na-gonna, Na-gonna-work-here-any-more Bolton!

-- yeaaaah, I'll go a head and make sure you get another copy of that memo, umkay... --

But, but, well, that's fine, but I'm going to blow up the building

Damn, it feels good to be a gangsta!!



i think we know this move all too well....!!

"it was a good name, til that no-talent, a$$ clown started making records"

BTW- has anyone noticed that the michael bolton guy is now a regular on MAD tv?

bigjohn

That's hilarious dude. I had no idea.

The Office Space characters are THE best, totally hilarious, every one of them

Looking forward to the Special Edition DVD for this one. I've always been annoyed at the shrift this thing got on initial release.

But I guess I can't blame them. I was the guy who bought the ticket to see the movie in the theater.

In his defence he did state that the SVS subwoofer cost more so it should be expected for it to perform better...

That part makes sense to me. In a fair test they'd all be equally priced items. So maybe HSU or Axiom are a better value and the SVS is a better sub. No one can deny that possibility.

My fav. quote by Tom Smykowski:

"... Jump to Conclusions mat. You see, it would be this mat that you would put on the floor, and it would have different conclusions written on it that you could jump to."

jejeje

OK, I have had my lunch and made peace with the Audio Gods and am now prepared to repent:

SV Subwoofers suck @ss. In fact, they are so bad that there is no possible way they could ever, EVER perform better than an HSU or Axiom subwoofer. In fact, I have now concluded that they are poorly made, poorly researched boxes 'o crap and that SV is actually a stealth arm of our favorite beloved mass-market company that goes by the axiom (get it?) "Better Sound Through Research." I further confess that I have ears made of aluminum foil and have no right to besmirch the Audio Industry in general by actually having the gall to form an opinion on any facet of it. I will now return my Denon, my Axiom setup, and my other components and buy a Wave radio since I obviously can't possibly tell the difference anyway.

Mark

In reply to:

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and it would have different conclusions written on it that you could jump to

---

and funnier than that, is the WTF look on the guys faces as he explains his idea.

"its like the guy who invented the pet rock.. i had an idea like that once"..

or the construction guy neighbor.. "naw man.. no way man.. hell no man, i dew believe you'd get your a$$ kicked for sayin' somethin' like 'at".

he is my favorite character of them all.. simply cause i got about 3-4 friends that are JUST like him.

bigjohn

BlueStater, what happened to not taking the bait? He's apologized already. The topic is closed. We've moved onto quoting Office Space now.

OK. I'm all better. Sorry Jimmy. Sorry forum dwellers. I usually ignore flame attacks. I just couldn't help myself today.

You'd think he was blinking "PC LOAD LETTER" at you, or something.

Hehe. I just couldn't find my stapler.

"I'm thinking I might take that new chick from logistics. Things go well, I might be showin' her my O-face. Oh! Oh! Oh! You know what I'm talkin' about ... Oh!"

***my Sound Guru worked on placement of the EP350 a little more. He moved it to the other side of the rig, inboard of the RF speaker, and more centrally located between the RF and the AV stand. This move was dramatic, removing the "boominess" we were getting earlier. Has to do with the 5' opening into the next room, we decided. In our minds, this change put the '350 ahead of the HSU as an all-around sub as far as this showdown goes. -MF***

This is my first post here and I have owned Hsu subs for over 10 years. (their car subs as well)

Personally, I am not affected by Hsu being beaten by $V$.

The 2 comments I'd like to make about your original post are:

1 - your *PS* - finally your own sub was placed in the RIGHT position and now sounded better then the Hsu sub. A well placed VTF3 MKI (used to have one) might have sounded much better as well.

2 - I am a basshead and an audiophile (50/50) but even I know that moving a sub even an inch can make or brake a sub.
You stated that the $V$ "could be placed almost anywhere to get good sound"

Not even Wilson Audio's XS 700lbs sub is a drop it anywhere and enjoy type of woofer.

The WTF3 has received lots of awards for it's musicality so obviously the sub in your room was in the wrong place. Too bad for you.

WTF3. heh heh.

Did you like?

Allow me to retort. The SVS (can't understand the $V$ reference, they are not outrageously expensive, the ISD2 coming in at $999 with shipping) sounded great as soon as it hit the floor. A little repositioning made it sound better. Hence the statement that I could have put it almost anywhere. Your comment that "even I know blah blah blah" suggests you haven't looked around this forum or others much. Many people, for some reason, have problems placing the EP350. I apent a week getting it where I thought it sounds good, and it took even more tweaking to really dial it in. So I did, in fact, "know that moving a sub even an inch can blah blah blah." Thirdly, you assume we didn't spend any time positioning the HSU, as well as the others. That is simply not true. Fourth, all three of the subwoofers
in the showdown have won awards. Your point is thereby moot. Lastly, this was a subjective test conducted in good conscience by a newbie, 2 enthusiasts, and a professional recording engineer. We likes what we likes. My opinions are mine and mine alone and I stand by them.

Yeah, I read your post Mark, but do you have any strong feelings about the subject? Please - try and get over your reticence to express yourself.

All in all - well stated. Rather than regarding someone's generous and honest input as an opportunity to get right up in their face, I try and take something from their opinion and thank them for their time in a manner that precludes insulting them. I find that approach is generally well received and almost never gets a response along the lines of - "OH YEAH - YOUR MAMA!!!!"

So - thanks, Mark.

It's well known that SVS has shills working the online forums. I thought this was common knowledge to everyone.

Truth? In Audio Veritas?

Haiku:

Mark is a sub shill
Wool over eyes of forum
Truth will set you free

Bluestater - Enough already, you are making us blue in the face! Many of us smelled something bad yesterday, and evidently the warm water wasn't running last night because it smells just as bad today.

And I absolutely love the bit about the professional recording engineer. Absolutely brilliant.

Now give me back my freaking red stapler already.

Jimmy - Can't a guy have a little fun? Uh, Ron Stimpson be who?

Christalmighty can we not act like this is a playground fight?!? if someone likes their sub, great for them! if not, i dont think a "shill" from another speaker company is gonna win any converts by acting juvenile. oh, and lets not dog anyones sub, because in their house it MIGHT just sound better than in yours. whew, sorry i had to get that off my chest

There's a bit of hypocrisy going on here. When Person X accuses Person Y of being a shill for Company A because Person Y's stated opinion is that Company A's product is better than Company B's product -- this same Person X is being a shill for Company B, albeit indirectly.

Sneaky, isn't it? Not that I believe anyone is being a shill here. I'm just saying, you know --- it's a speck vs. log sort of thing.

quote from bluestater "This will be a very subjective, non-technical comparison/review"

i think blue (if i can call you blue) is getting a little aggressive because he stated in his first post the above quote. and has since been abused by more than one person for his findings. caling him a "svs" shill is laughable because he does not even own that product. he owns a axiom ep350. i just want to say thanks for the review because it actually made me feel better about the performance of my soon to arrive system because i debated with myself over which sub and finally decided on the ep350 so i was glad to hear that after listening to all 3 he is keeping his ep350. so i think he might be well within his rights to get a little irritable.
Jake

All you need to do is notice that these are primarily newbies who have signed up for the sole purpose of discrediting this thread (They may even be the same person. We've seen that before.) None of them are asking questions; none of them are here to learn anything; none of them are here to contribute anything worthwhile. The are just here to attack someone for posting opinions which run contrary to theirs.

Mark, while not being here all that long, has placed his name in his profile, has participated in a reasonable manner in a number of threads, both asking and answering questions, thereby establishing his credibility. Between him and his attackers, it's readily apparent who has the agenda.

By the way. I'm a contented HSU owner.

Wait a minute! Lightbulb just went on.

"A Shill Doesn't Only Pitch for the Red Sox"
- by Mark

Ahem *cough*

I wonder who may be a shill
Jim and others doth protest quite shrill
It's likely methinks that for dinner and drinks
Mr. HSU picks up all of the bill!

Jack,

You hit the nail right on the head.Good reply.I wonder what Axiom products they are interested in.

I think regardless of what sub you choose from the 3 you would be happy regardless.

My point exactly. Was the conclusion to my original post not "we are all happy with our subs?" Have I not said over and over that this reflects MY personal opinion? Good, bad, or indifferent? Am I "shill" for Denon, to the detriment of Yamaha, HK, and others, if I mention I prefer my 2805 to another receiver?

Don't be concerned with those folks.You did just fine.That was what I got out of your post.I too have a Hsu sub and take no offense.Like ya said to begin with "we are all happy with our subs".That should be end of story right there.

On the other hand, Jack, maybe BlueStater has MPD (multiple personality disorder) and is in an argument with himself....

Mark, to amplify what Jack said, we appear to have a miscreant who is coming in from a variety of directions, at different times, on a continung basis to simply cause problems. I'd suggest to all that when we find ourselves with a newbie that appears to be an idiot, he/she/it probably is.

To say it one more time - the best way to go at this nonsense is to completely and totally IGNORE IT. Without exercising that discipline, these threads will simply continue like this. Think about it - twice.

Again, I think its fair for someone to have a strong opinion about something and not be working for the company. I for one am a strong advocate of SVS. Why? Because they damn well deserve it. I have not heard an Axiom sub, or an HSU sub...but when I go to high end audio stores (save a 10" Sunfire subwoofer I heard) I've downright hated them all! I mean...I go places to demo receivers and speakers and I always walk away saying "that would have been better if it had a better subwoofer hooked up." For the most part subwoofers have been noise producers more than anything. Either that or they're horribly calibrated...so shame on those stores!

So, its easy to have a strong opinion, even after first impressions. I'm an advocate of almost all the components I own. But I can easily be critical of my own equipment if I hear something that is superior. In terms of speakers the only ones I've heard that are actually "superior" to the Axioms and those are the B&W 800s...which is completely unfair as they are $10000 a speaker. Ouch!

All this to say I think that the line between a shill and advocate or fan can be a very small one. Bottom line is everyone ends up having to pick a favorite somewhere. Even if they don't end up owning their favorite.

I heard a 12 inch sunfire and it was complete magic. It only cost $1600!

Shill!!! Shill I say!!! BURN HIM!!! BUUUUURRN HIIIIMMM!!!!

Unless he weighs less than a duck, that is...

No, no, Mark; if he weighs less than a duck, then he must burn.

You should burn him left-handed. If you use your right, it will be over too quickly.

BlueStater - I didn't attack you did I? You sound insecure in your response to me. You posted your findings and that is fine. You don't have to defend anything.

Was I wrong that I suggested that with fine tuning the VTF3's position you would have gotten better results? Heck even the $V$ (money saver reference btw)sub would sound better with proper placement. That is all. As I said your review is meaningless to me since I am a happy Hsu owner.

***I spent a week getting it where I thought it sounds good, and it took even more tweaking to really dial it in***.
1 - if you gave the other 2 subs the same attention ( I know it wasn't possible) you would have improved their sound as well. Which is what I was trying to say.

***So I did, in fact, "know that moving a sub even an inch can blah blah blah."***
2 - if you can't take constructive criticism either don't post it, or you may have some issues my friend.
Or you are very young

Hmmm, a whiff of familiarity???? A rose by any other name? Does anyone else hear the same music playing again?

I play my own music my friend. And this is a BB for HT talk.

Try enjoying life - there is more to it then subwoofers.

I am sorry I replied. I should have known better. Time to go by by!

This wasn't going too badly until "Truth" popped up and pushed it over the edge. I wish there was some way to limit people to questions for their first 10 posts. Always seems like the worst posts come from users with only one post ;(

Tdekany, the questions you asked were fine and reasonable, but the way you asked them was just a bit presumptuous and insulting. I think the point we're trying to make is that you could have asked the same questions in a more diplomatic way, eg :

- rather than assuming the Hsu didn't get the same attention re: placement, ask "you mentioned you found a new location for the SVS, did you get a chance to retest the other subs in the same location ?" etc...

Anyways, *I* thought it was a good review, but then again I own a PSB sub

Ruined what? It's obvious who the SVS plants are although I'm not saying there are any in this thread. Just check HTF.

Against my better judgment, I'm going to chime in on this whole "BlueStater is an SVS plant" argument. Put very simply, he is not. Mark responded to my request for a Denon microphone a couple weeks ago, and has communicated back and forth with me since, providing a mound of valuable assistance and recommendations to me, going way beyond the simple questions I asked to provide long, in-depth, useful solutions and suggestions. Nothing he ever said was an attempt to sway me toward a particular product or brand, nor did he ever comment on the quality of the equipment I own or recommend switching to another brand. From my experience, there is less than no chance that he is a shill for any company whatsoever. Anyone who thinks otherwise is simply reading far too much into his post(s); sometimes there just isn't anyone on the grassy knoll.

Side note: Any company that is incapable of providing a superior product at 150% the consumer cost of their chief competitor has no buisiness being in the business. I would fully expect the SVS in that comparison to best the Axiom. As Mark said, bring in the EP500, and you'll get a whole different result.

"That's all I have to say about that."

-- Jason

I wish I was paid by every company I promoted...then I would ask for discounts! I personally would own 3 SVS subwoofers by now...so I can be just like joninflorida

Thanks for the kind words, Jason. Got your system dialed in yet? And MAN, I can't believe this thread still has life! It's "The Thing That Wouldn't Leave," Internet-style.

That's funny, Yeah I got three of em, and in a bit, 2 will actully work!!

Heh, I hear ya. Ponce de Leon should have skipped the whole Florida trip and worked on developing computer technology; the internet IS the Fountain of Youth!

Still working and tweaking. My ears aren't real sure what they're looking...errr...listening for, so it's a lot of back and forth and up and down. I leveled everything to 0db on the 3805 = 85db on the SPL. Then I took your advice, zeroed out the EQ, and then bumped up the center by a couple dbs at 4kHz, and a db or so for all the other freqs over 1kHz. Then bumped up the sub about 8db. I know it violates a major rule in the home theater universe, but I listen to probably 95% HT/5% music, and hell, I just like the extra rumble! Maybe once the newness wears off, I'll tone it down a bit. But I doubt it ;-) Thanks again for all your help!

-- Jason

Nice review, bluestater. I like my EP350, too. More than adequate for my room, pretty tight and musical. I have heard the SVS 20-39 and was pretty impressed with it. Haven't had the opportunity to hear the HSU, unfortunately.

Change your user name and you'll be perfect. JK

Did you find you really needed the EQ? After a bunch of tweaking the positions of the speakers, I got 'em where I don't feel I need EQ at all. If you do use the EQ, one thing I learned while mixing live sound is find a freq range (i.e. an instrument) that is not as forward in the mix as it should be. Then, figure out what is drowning it out and drop that freq or those freqs JUST enough that the instrument is clear. In other words, it is usually better to drop freqs than bump them. I'm not a devoted "no EQ" disciple, but I decided I would push that theory as far as I could with my new setup, and it seems to work well so far. Just have to go through much more hassle to position the speaks (and I also tweaked furniture postitioning). And I mean 1" in any direction or 1 degree of toe-in or out can make a big differerence. Check out my posts the last week or two and you can track my frustrations and foibles as far as getting it right. As far as +8 on the sub, that isn't unusual judging from many of the posts I see here. My EP350 is usually at +5 for HT and +2.5 for music. But in the end, if you think it sounds good, well, it sounds good to you. And you didn't spend all that money to make me or anyone else happy, now, did you?

Hehe. To change my name I would have to move 1 state to the East. Which would make me 1 state removed from the ocean. I have never lived more than 60 miles from the Pacific and I never plan to. 60 miles from the ocean, 60 miles from Mt. Hood . Both are great places to go any time of year. Yeah, I know, "rain blah-blah-blah." Rains more in 60% of the US. We Northwestners ignore it. But from mid-March or so through mid-September or so it's paradise on earth.

Dude, don't blow "the code".

Ahem. Yes, it rains an ungodly amount all the time in the Pacific Northwest. I don't know why anyone would want to live here. The traffic is horrible. It's dark and gray all the time. An earthquake or lahar will surely kill us all pretty soon. Did I mention The Wet?

Stay away.

It's too late! Washington here I come!!!

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

Is it Friday?