Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Laid Back vs. Lack of Detail

I received my Factory Outlet M40's a few days ago. They arrived in very good condition, as I believe most everyone else has experienced. I could only find a very small mark on one of them, so the fit and finish is very nice for B stock units and are actually a bit smaller than I visualized, which is a good thing.

With all of the discussion about Axiom speakers, I assumed, maybe mistakenly, that they were all fairly detailed in their sound. I know the M40's are reputed to be a bit laid back, but I didn't equate laid back to mean lack of detail. They only have a few hours on them, so I don't know if after 50-100 hours this will change, assuming break-in is a valid concept - vs. your hearing adapting to the new sound.

For lack of a better word, they sound restrained and somewhat muted. They sound nice, but I have some inexpensive Awia book shelf speakers from an old 5.1 package that bring out quite a bit more detail. The overall sound is not as rich sounding as the M40, but I can hear a lot more of the little things in the background on these than I can with the M40's. It was a frustrating first impression. I am hoping this improves over time. Any comments would be appreciated. I should add that I am using a Yamaha HTR-5560 to drive them and I am using 14 gauge speaker wire.

Maybe if you wanted detail the M22 is more of what you want. They are very detailed and great in most modest size rooms. You pretty much have 30 days to evaluate if the M40 is your ticket. I found that with Axioms there is really no break-in. Its more of your ears and your head getting used to its sound.

Good luck;
Saturn

Have you checked(with a test-tone CD or other source of high frequencies)to make sure that both tweeters are operating? There should be a little less detail than the M22, but not to the extent that you describe.

ajb, (the colour is to keep readers interested in this rather long post)

You are correct in thinking that your brain is what needs time to 'break in'.
The very first day i received the M22s and M60s for auditioning, the sound of the M22s was so vastly different from my Technics bookshelf system that i had for 10 years, i wasn't sure what to think of the Axiom sound. I was still liking the Technics better, BUT was this just because i was used to it?
I had to take more time to compare the speakers before deciding.
I said to myself, the sound is different but is it better?
The M22s had less bass but it was as if someone had turned up a treble knob yet in a clean and clear way. I just wasn't immediately impressed.
I was simply so used to the sound of my Technics that it was my 'reference' for good sound (for a lack of having a better system for so many years).
Here was another part of my original problem and 'slight' disappointment the first day i got the new speakers for auditioning, i had lines like this running through my head:
"The day my Axioms arrived i was blown away".
You can substitute alot of brands in that statement instead of Axiom, but the reality is that new speakers will not always provide a profoundly world changing experience. So many customers pump it up sometimes that your idea of what is going to happen when your speakers arrive just doesn't live up to the hype. This doesn't mean the speakers are not great quality, just that your brain once again was biased by a preconceived notion of greatness.

I was equally hampered by my thoughts that my first impressions Axioms was going to be amazing compared to what i had... and it simply was not.
This is a major bias to get out of your mind before you should make any decisions. I've heard several times from people first buying a quality system saying exactly the same thing you have "they don't sound as good as people say they do....".
Based on such major expectations immediately after researching and buying a new speaker, i'm not surprised.
Give the Axioms time (or any speaker brand for that matter), take tons of music and listen to them on both speaker sets. Try to distinguish the bass, the mid sound, the high sound, vocals, drum snares, people breathing, the strum of a guitar chord, and continue to get more specific. Listen for those sounds and eventually you will start to hear what speaker your ears prefer.

As for the thoughts that your Aiwa speakers have a better sound, i'm doubting it (from my perspective). If they were built with the lovely amount of quality that my Technics speakers were, then they are most likely highly coloured in the high frequencies and low end to appease the masses of cheap market sales that target young teenagers expecting lots of thump and ear piercing noise.
I always thought my Technics system had great sound and even after buying new stuff to replace it, i still thought the Technics was better, until i took more time to listen more objectively to both.

Keep in mind as i tell the next part of my tale that this Technics system orignally cost me $1500 and the replacement speakers and receiver totalled under $500!! (hence the 'cheap' low end Technics was actually 3 times more expensive than my present components).
Just three weeks ago i bought a pair of new Tannoys for my office. They were replacing my age old Technics system which was replaced last year by the Axioms (hence my Technics was moved to office duty).
When i first listened to the Tannoys, i purposely sat myself down before listening and said
"Ok, i'm not going to automatically think the Tannoys will sound better than these Technics"
I tried as best as i could to remain objective.

I then compared the two speakers using the A & B channel switch on my H/K receiver. I was SHOCKED to hear my old Technics speakers sounding better than the Tannoys!!
The Tannoys sounded muted, flat and simply unimpressive (hmmm, not unlike my Axioms on day 1). The sound was good but seemed missing alot of high end compared to the Technics.
I was however comparing a 2 way speaker to the Technics 3 way so at the time, i figured the extra Technics driver was the difference. I then started to wonder if buying those Tannoys was the right choice and perhaps i should have been looking for equivalent 3 way speaker to replace them, which the Tannoys were not.
I went for about 2 weeks grumbling over my Tannoy purchase hoping my brain would break in and they would start to sound equal or better than the Tannoys, but they still had a dulled muted sound.
I then noticed something i had not noticed before.
All the time i was listening to my Technics in my office, the tweeter was at least 8 inches above my ears. Since i had placed the Tannoys right next to them for comparisons, the Tannoy tweeter was also above my ears although a touch lower than the taller Technics. I totally forgot about trying to setup the tweeter position so it is at ear height.
Not wanting to 'audition' the Tannoys improperly, i put on my test cd and listened to both speakers. Then i elevated my office seat to a height more appropriate in putting my ears in line with the tweeters and i tested the sound again.
The sound was so different AGAIN, i had to re-evaluate all my impressions. Once i was inline with the tweeters, the quality difference between the two speakers became VERY apparent. I even had my wife sit down and listen to this while i switched betwen the A & B channels w/o ever telling her which speaker was turned on at any given time (yes i did actually blindfold her but that story is for some other x rated forum).

The Technics sounded clear still but very harsh, distorted almost or scratchy (for lack of a better word). The Tannoys comparitively now sounded alot more clear, definitely not muted as i had first thought, but SMOOTH. The sound was so much smoother than the Technics and yet i had not heard this the first time around nor after 2 weeks while sitting low in my chair.

I have since concluded why i had thought the Technics sounded so much better. I was 'accidentally' off-axis (vertically by a considerable degree) for quite some time and hence, the harsh Technics tweeter was not producing sound direclty at my ear level making it sound far less harsh but clear whereas this effect on the Tannoys was to make them sound muted when their tweeter is really much more detailed than i first thought.

Long story made short:
New speakers, regardless of other's opinions will not always 'blow you away'. Don't ever think they will before you hear them yourself.
Secondly, even old low end components can sound good (and better than anything new) if that is all you have ever really owned.
Third, sometimes orientation and almost ALWAYS, room configuration will modify the sound for better or for worse.
Give it time and try out different things.

ajb,

Notwithstanding his bordering-on-obnoxious colorizing, Chess makes some important points. The M40 is a much better speaker than you think it is right now...I would suspect the Aiwa's are bright and forward like most cheap bookshelf speakers, making the much more neutral Axioms sound dull and recessed by comparison.

I totally agree with Chess. I had exactly the same experience with my M3s when they first arrived. I was so disappointed that my Panasonic seemed to sound better and began wondering if I'd wasted all my money. Like Chess said, I gave it some time and things still didn't improve. I finally discovered that in my haste to hook the speakers up, I'd used some old, cheap worn out oxidized thin wire. I immediately bought some oxygen free 12 gauge wire and tried it again. Viola! I was much happier now with the sound.

It took me a little time to understand that I wasn't suffering from ear fatigue anymore and we actually play for 8 hours at a stretch these days. The neutral and smooth sound of the Axioms sinks in slowly and you realize it over time.

I'm sure you'll enjoy your M40s very soon.

Hey, what a surprise.
Someone labeled me as colourful.
Thanks fhw.
I was hoping at least one person would read that entire lengthy discourse.

I think many people would read that post as it sure doesn't escape the eye. Particularly more interesting as many people face the same experience. Mind over Logic or rather "Hype over Music"

:-)

Slow day at the office Chess? Great post btw (with or w/out the colors).

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I even had my wife sit down and listen to this while i switched betwen the A & B channels w/o ever telling her which speaker was turned on at any given time (yes i did actually blindfold her but...

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So, what did she have to say? I mean, about the speakers!

At least you didn't do the 16-year-old thing and try to get attention by MAKING THE ENTIRE POST ALL-CAPS!! WITH LOTS OF EXCLAMATION MARKS!!!

My wife had actually heard me playing around with the speakers (at higher volumes) in the office while she was in her office in the next room.
She noticed a difference in sound quality right from there. I had asked her to come into the office and listen to these 2 speakers to get her opinion. As she was coming over to my office she mentioned she liked one of the speakers i had playing "a couple of minutes ago". The one she was referring to at the time happened to be the Tannoys and she hadn't even seen them yet.
Since at this time i was not sure whether i liked the Tannoys, i put her to the test. She still liked the tannoys better over the technics speakers while sitting LOW in the chair. She thought they had a really smooth sound but perhaps muted compared to the Axioms.
She liked the Tannoys even more once i discovered my tweeter placement issue and even winced at the horrible quality of the Technics tweeter in the second sound tests. Her ears are more sensitive than mine to those high frequencies.
That's ok though. I have a better sense of smell.

The Technics system had served me well for 10 years in university. It was mildly abused for volume but otherwise well taken care of. I hope if i can sell it on ebay that some other student may pick it up and continue the trend. Lotsa history with that thing. I'll be sad to see it go.

I WILL TRY TO REMEMBER NEXT TIME, JUST TO BE SURE YOU CAN HEAR ME ALL THE WAY FROM MANITOBA TO NOVA SCOTIA

Isn't this a fun forum. I have really enjoyed everyone's comments here.

My initial comments were based on listening to CDs only. I have been waiting for the rest of my order, a VP100 and QS8's (which should arrive today) before I tried any DVDs, but I couldn' wait. It got the better of me. So I compromised and loaded up the Eagles Hell Freezes Over DVD (DTS version). You have to remember now that this is a mixed setup. I have the M40's as mains and the Awia stuff in the center and surrounds. Unfortunately, I didn't have a lot of time for this, but when Hotel California started playing and I started switching back and forth between the M40's and the old Awia main, I could hear a big difference. The Awia's sounded almost scratchy. The M40's were much more clear and natural - the guitars sounded very nice. Because all channels are being used and because the recording routs a lot of the vocal and instrumental parts though the center, depending on the camera position, I noticed how bad the Awia center channel sounded compared to the M40s. I am sure the VP100 will address that nicely and I can't wait for the QS8's.

As nice as the M40's sounded, the jury is still out on how much detail they are capable of revealing. If any of you have listened to the newer Wharfedale EVO 30 or 40 you know what I mean. They are amazing, but at least double the $$$. I compared them to the Paradigm Studio models and WOW, much more detailed. But, it is a subjective comparison and everyone has there own likes and dislikes.

Anyway, back to the Axioms. I can't wait to get the all Axiom setup in place. I know it will be much better than what I have and, for the price, I think it will be hard to beat. Price was a bit issue, so for a value priced system, I am hoping this will work out very nicely.

Thanks to everyone for your comments and COLOR.

this reminds me of the first time i heard an Axiom speaker in my home.... the M1Ti's.

I hooked them up to my computer and played mp3's. I was confused. they sounded bad, I almost felt like switching back to my pc speakers.

But I left it for a few days. Then I tried my PC speakers again and I gave them away the following weekend for free. I hated their sound. My ears were now up to par with Axiom sound.


just thought i'd share that with you...

the moral of the story is there is no speaker break in, but there is ear break in.

Chess, you hit the nail on the head here.

In reply to:

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Give the Axioms time (or any speaker brand for that matter).

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This is exactly why I won't buy speakers from "high end shops" that won't allow a 30 day return or trade up. Its impossible to get a good feel for a speaker just listening to it for 30-60 minutes in a room other than your own. For the same reason, I also think that AB speaker tests for short periods of time (30-60 min) are worthless. I often wonder if one of those speakers that didn't sound good to me in the store could have been my "ideal" speaker had I had a chance to hear them in my own set up/room.

I actuall enjoyed the colored text - it does seem to break the monotony of reading black text on a white backround.

I say, give the M40s at least two weeks of serious listening before you decide to send them back. I haven't heard the M40s but I have the M22s and I can say without reservation that they are some of the most "detailed" (not laid back) speakers I've ever heard at any price.

When I first heard them, the detail was shocking compared to the polite KEFs I had been acustomed to. My first thought was "man, these are bright" and I keep waiting for the ear fatigue to set in but it never did. After two weeks of the M22s, I didn't want to go back to the KEFs (at least not for critical 2 ch. listening).

OUCH!

You dig pretty deep, my friend. You rescued this thread all the way from May!

Huh? [he says with a "who me" look on his face]

Yup.
That was an old post dug up from the history books.
Way to dig mwc.

Not a bad rant at the time though.
I did sell that old Technics system on ebay too. I was sad to see her go. So many memories.

Here's to the colours!