Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Comparing the 350 to the 500...

Those of us in the drawing have been fantasizing a little over the idea of getting a butt-kicking sub, so maybe it's a good time to ask this:

Has anyone directly compared a 500 to a 350?

I bought my system with a 350, as the 500 did not become available for a few months after my purchase. Sometimes I've wondered if the 500 would have been a serious step-up or not and I've sometimes wondered about replacing my 350 with the 500 (The 600 in my 13' square room would be pretty serious overkill I believe!)

I comparing the subs in the pop-up comparison chart, the 500 doesn't seem like it would be that much more capable:

* The sizes are virtually identical (500 is just a few inches deeper)
* The 500 does offer a 500-watt amp in comparison to the 200 watts on the 350
* The 500 offers 2db more output (both anechoic and "room" responses)
* The 500 goes to 20Hz in comparison to the 28Hz offered by the 350 on the +/- 3db spec (This is the only significant difference I see in the specs)

Certainly, the 500 offers more in terms of features with a better amp design, balanced inputs, etc. But on paper, there doesn't seem to be a huge difference.

Is this one of those situations where the specs on the page don't tell the whole story and in real-world situations, the 500 completely trounces the 350?

I was also in your same situation Mark, I purchased my setup before the 500 became available. I'm also interested in the responses you get on this topic. I'm think about getting a second sub, possibly another 350 or maybe a 500 if I can talk the boss(wife) into it My basement is very large..

Randy

Axiom 60's 150 350 4-Qs8's
Denon 2805
Sanyo Z2 WXGA Projector
Panasonic S97S HDMI DVD
Samsung HD OTA tuner

The size thing does make some difference: the internal volume of the 350 is 4331.25 cubic inches, if I read the specs correctly. The internal volume of the 500 is 5558.4375 cubic inches, which is a difference of around 28%. Not exactly insignificant...

I've been wondering the same thing. Of course I'm thinking "when I win the EP600 but have to downsize, what will I go with- a 350 or 500". Hmmmm. If I was going to start out fresh, I'd go with a 500 over a 350 but that's a pretty easy decision. It's the upgrade decision that's more difficult. I just sold my HSU STF-2 and bought an SVS PB-10. Same size-10", but the amp is much bigger in the SVS. Guess it will make some difference. We'll see.

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* The 500 goes to 20Hz in comparison to the 28Hz offered by the 350 on the +/- 3db spec

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That alone is a pretty darn big difference, no?

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That alone is a pretty darn big difference, no?

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Yes, it's substantial. But I still wonder if I'm missing something based upon the other specs, such as only 2db more in maximum output for instance.

I have a sneaking suspicion that it doesn't come across on paper as well as it does in the real-word...especially considering the "almost double" price difference.

If you sell your Beech 350 Mark to get an upgrade, maybe we can work out a deal oops I just broke the rules...he he

I wish I could help more here. I never had a sub before the EP500. I went from a BOSE AM-7 to an Axiom EPIC 80 500. The LFEs are just awesome. I watched "Saving Private Ryan" last night. The opening sequences seem real. It almost hurts to watch and hear. Gut rentching.

I have the 500 set to about 9 o'clock. It shakes the entire house.

I have a 2 week vacation coming up. Maybe I should take my 500 on the road. I'll have to ask Amie about comissions for traveling salesmen.

I think you have most of the differences pegged. Moving the -3dB point to 20 Hz instead of 28 Hz is probably the biggest as you already noted.

I'm not 100% sure, but depending on how you interpret the response curves the EP500 may also react more gracefully when it does eventually reach its limits. I don't know exactly what the DSP does when it decides that either power or speaker travel are about to go too far (ie does it turn the volume down across the entire frequency range or just roll off the lowest notes) but either way the result has to be more pleasant than the loud GRUNK that even the biggest subs make when they hit the wall.

Bottom line is that the difference between 350 and 500 seems to be a number of different areas. It will be interesting to see what Axiom does next with the sub lineup. Heck, it's probably worth driving to Dwight just to find that out

I'm hoping Alan might chime in here as well... especially since others have the same questions!

Hopefully at the open house, we will be able to listen to both (or all three) back to back.

Thought I would chime in here....
The 500 uses a different/more advanced DSP...I am not sure that the 350 has the same DSP.

The 500 also allows for future remote control via Axioms upcoming electronics (whatever they may be.)

As for settings...I can tell you this thing is loud.... I have had the volume at 9 o'clock and the trim flat. Crossovers are in Bypass, allowing my receiver to handle the sub. I have, at advice, set the level for the sub on my receiver from 0 to -10 and experimented with raising the physical volume on the sub. It makes a BIG difference and is something I would recommend to any and all.

The models below 500 do not have a DSP, at least not as far as we know.

Always uncertain the future is, however...

Actually, all my speakers from Axiom have DSPs.

Darling Son Protectors, also known as grilles....

and you thought you'd only be insufferable if you won the sub lottery.

Hi Mark,

When I first ordered the Epic 80 system, the 500 was not out so it came with the 350. Man, that thing rocked compared to my HTIB from Sony. Movies came to life and music became rich. At the time, movies accounted for 75% of system time. After reading posts about deep rumbles and feeling the LFEs, I felt I was missing out on an even richer experience and opted to upgrade to the 500.

I would not say the difference is like night and day but more like dusk to night. The 500 improves upon the 350's performance and expands it.

oh, that smarts!

John, the key question is: Was the 500 worth the extra dough, and do you still long for more (deeper/stronger) bass?

Shawn

Absolutely correct.....
Sorry....I forgot about the 350 not having a DSP...
So there you have it...one major difference is the fact that the 500 does have a DSP.

One more quick post...
I had a JBL Studio Sub which rated at about 350 watts...if I remember correctly. The 500 kills that sub and anything I have heard in this size range...mind you...SIZE not price. I am sure there are other subs out there that can match and or outperform the 500...but having a matching finish and matching DSP's (.....Son Protectors) is a sure necessity.

Well...daughters are watching Harry Potter #3 and while I was in the shower I could feel what they were watching...The itch has been scratched.

Was it worth the extra dough? That's hard to say. If I did not have the extra cash I probably would not have upgraded and I certainly wouldn not have looked elsewhere. You know, the WAF. The matching finish is fantastic. If I knew how to include photos in a post I would to give you an idea how well they match everthing. I guess to answer your question, yeah, it was worth it. I'd much rather waite for a movie to hit DVD and see at home than see it on the big screen.

Hope that helps,
John

My sentiments exactly on the dvds. I'll wait for the summer movies on dvd and really enjoy then at home.

A HSU STF-2 will go to 25 hz -/+ 3 dB, 3 dB deeper than the ep350, and costs about $250 less, and is also a quick and accurate sub. A VTF-3 would trounce the ep350, and after the turbocharger comes out, could probably go head to head with the ep500.

I just got my axiom speakers so I'm not bashing them, but the subs seem a bit overpriced..

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The Epicenter EP500 is the first subwoofer of its size to truly go down to a couch-shaking 19 Hz in an anechoic environment.

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Velodyne, HSU, and SVS are three companies who have done this. I'm sure the TN1220 tubes from HSU and the svs box ultras can do this easily, at 100 dB, outside. They've been tested to do so also. Of course it's a good accomplishment, yet to say they're the first is like panasonic claiming they made the first DVD player that supported surround sound. It's ridiculous and not factual.

I'm not saying the EP500 is a bad sub. Audioholics loved it. I'm saying that with the ep350.. you could get much more for the same price, and that the marketing on the ep500 is misleading.

Thasp - Take a deep breath and smile. Specs without some form of testing are not a good way in which to compare subwoofers.

>>Velodyne, HSU, and SVS are three companies who have done this

Sure, but in fairness all of those are bigger than the EP500. The 500 is 19.5 x 19.5 x 15 (5700 in^3) while an SVS PB12-Ultra (for example) is 25 x 25 x 18, almost twice the volume. Even the entry level PB10-ISD is bigger than the EP500. I think Axiom's claims are correct.

A better question is "what else can you get for the same $$ as an EP500 ?". I don't think we know the answer for sure, but at first glance the 500 probably does outperform the low end SVS boxes both in terms of power and performance. The question is how far up the SVS (or Hsu, or Velodyne) line you have to go to match the 500's performance.

Axiom doesn't have the whole sub line covered in the sense that they don't have a "big dumb sub" -- the 350 is the biggest before the DSPs and the big amps come out to play. I ended up with an SVS 20-39PC+ (almost exactly twice as big as an EP500) before the Axiom subs came out... roughly the same price as the EP500 up here. My guess is that the SVS still gives a bit more "bass for the buck" in terms of how loud it can play, but the Axiom DSP gives the 500 some advantages which might make it more satisfying overall, particularly more civilized behaviour at the limits (BTW I have already found the limits of the SVS, although the house starts to make some really scary buzzes and rattles long before the SVS starts to give in ).

Charles
Once you get your 10" SVS and had a chance to play with it, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts of how it compares with the 10" HSU.

I'm considering getting a 10"er for 2 channel music upstairs in the family room. I have the SVS in my relatively small basement HT room and love it (mostly use it for movies) but wonder if there is much difference in sound between the two (particulerly for music).

Paul

Hi Mark,

Sorry, busy with the Axiom newsletter.

It comes down to a matter of bass extension and real output (the EP350 does not use a DSP). When there is genuine low-frequency information on the DVD soundtrack, other subs that don't use a DSP often poop out in the upper 20-Hz region, despite the claims. The roll-off in extension and output is relatively steep, and you can hear that in side-by-side comparisons.

The EP500's DSP "linearizes" its low-frequency output, so that when there is content at 20 Hz, the impact can be dramatic because there is no significant roll-off in the EP500's output.

By the way, the soundtrack mix and low-frequency content on the re-make of "Flight of the Phoenix" is spectacular. The low-frequency content during the C-119's flight through the desert sandstorm (and subsequent crash) is wonderfully realistic; terrifying in fact. While I live in a ground-floor apartment (nothing except the basement beneath my unit), I was frankly worried that the low-frequency content would offend others in my building. That DVD is highly recommended (the movie is decent). It's filmed in the Gobi desert, and the original soundtrack uses these low-frequency African sounds.

To answer Bridgeman, the DSP code for the EP500 is programmed to prevent the digital amp from supplying more power once the DSP senses that distortion limits/and/or voice-coil excursion would be exceeded if the amp did supply more power. It's sort of a very sophisticated limiter.

Regards,

I did some research through the forums to help me make my decision whether to go with the standard EP350 or opt for the EP500. Honestly, I didn't really find negative comments about either one (except for price) but one thing that came out were all the questions just like the one in this thread. The fact that EP350 owners were questioning about whether or not to upgrade was my deciding factor to go with the EP500. I have not been disappointed. The sub blew my Velodyne off the carpet. This is my third complete home theatre system upgrade and it is most satisfying. In fact I dare say it will even be my last. It's like getting behind the wheel of 60's muscle car. A desire to upgrade my main system is not even on my list of things to do anymore. It's that good. I have my volume limit on my main amp set to "75" (it peaks around 120). At 75 I have to yell into the person's ear next to me to be heard. The sub is so strong it knocks (vibrates) nick-knacks off the shelves (in the kitchen). After tuning in the surrounds (which did take some work) I went to place the EP500. The very first place I set it is where it still is. The only problem I had was something to do with a 60 Hz hum because it was on a different circuit from the amp. I fixed that by running a 10ga extension back to the main power strip.

I made 3-5 trips per week to area "audiophile” type places (not Fry’s or Best Buy) over 2 months before I made a decision. The runner up was $4K Velodyne so this was a no-brainer (the closest main speakers were $5500/pr, ouch!). There are plenty of strong subs on the market but the EP500 is clean and pure and the punch is effortless. I don’t have the question anymore of whether it needs to be louder. After finishing a DVD like “Ray” I’m literally sitting back in awe. I'm glad I made the upgrade to the EP500. Not only is immensely satisfying, the look and feel match too. As far as physical volume, it's big enough. Any larger it would take the place of a piece of furniture.


Main M80ti (2)
Cent VP150
Surr QS8 (4)
Sub EP500
Onkyo TX-NR801
Mitsubishi 62” HD-DLP
Seating 7pc leather home theatre recliners

Paul,
First comments on the new SVS 10". It's physically larger than the HSU so there is more volume in the unit. It's deeper and louder at lower levels and I think it has a fuller sound. It enhances my music and I can feel this one much more than I did the HSU. The HSU was a great sub but I believe this SVS is a better, more powerful sub. Now I'm thinking upgrade!! Yipes...

cgolf,

Just wondering -- how big is your room (L, W & H)? How "full" is the room with bass. You mentioned you could feel it better than with the old model -- how much? I really want to feel the bass and am looking at nothing smaller than a 12" Sub (single driver that is) because of my room size.

These are the models I am considering:

- Axion EP500: $1150
- Velodyne DLS4000: $699
- HSU VTF-3 MK 2: $699
- SVS PV-12 Plus (Plus because I like the Maple finish -- something for the WAF): $999

My budget is < $1000 for the sub --if I can find something I really like.

I like the "feel" the sub pressure in the room. My room is 15 x 17 x ~9 (8' vaults to 10') -- about 2500 cu/ft.

A factory order EP500 may be 10% cheaper.

Awesome bass and LFE.

The room is fairly average I guess-- 12x14x8 but it opens up into the dining room and kitchen. This sub doesn't knock you off the couch but you can feel the pressure and vibration. I want a 12" sub but the waf wouldn't allow it so I went with this 10" with the thought of upgrading within the next year after the wife gets used to this one.

That's the info I needed!!

Since "the wife" approved a dedicated HT room, I have a bit of flexibility All speakers will be hidden from view (for the WAF) with the exception of the sub. One of the subs I am considering is the Velodyne DLS5000 which packs a DSP and 15" driver -- roughly 20" x 21" x 20" in size (about $675 street). Talk about blowing you out of your seat. My neighbors may not like it too much, though

Thanks for the reply.

Steve

Steve, do you live in an apartment building, town home/condo or a detached home? "Neighbor factor" is the major concern I have, preventing me from getting a real HT in my apartment for now.

Yes, a condo with shared walls. Is that bad??

Just kidding. I live in a real house with about 6" walls full of insulation --> 10' attic --> More insulation --> Brick --> another 20' side yard --> nieghbors house. I should be relatively safe as long as I keep it down below 80db

Steve

You are fine, just go ahead with your HT... I envy you!!

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Yes, a condo with shared walls. Is that bad??

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Unfortunately yes, it is very bad to share walls with people...

Actually, she does not know about the size of this sucker yet -- and I'm still considering some smaller 12" subs.

I think I'll just buy the 15" and have it shipped to the house (during the day while I'm gone). She just see a huge box that weighs 85lbs and say "Another Home Theater thing, will it never stop?"

It will be tucked away in the front right corner of the room -- away from everything, so, hopefully, it won't be that noticeable Just have to keep it low at night so I don't scare my kids while they sleep -- they might think its thunder -- they hate thunder.

Steve

I've got a townhouse with shared walls and cranked it up when I first got it. Asked my neighbor on the other side of the wall the next day if he heard it the day before. He said he couldn't hear it. I guess we have good soundproofing

I as well need to upgrade my sub. I have my new HT room built in a sound proof room in my basement with a 80's system and a ep175 sub. I also have a Sunfire jr in my living room. Of all the subs I hve heard nothing seems to compare to the Sunfire. Of course the problem is the cost of the things, I bought mine off a friend, used.
Still I wonder what a comparable Axiom sub would be? My 175 just does not seem to be clean enough? Could the setup be wrong?

<<By the way, the soundtrack mix and low-frequency content on the re-make of "Flight of the phoenix" is spectacular. >>

Alan's right about this movie. Bought it over the weekend and watched tonight. I had to turn down the sub. Chairs were moving.

I liked the original version better being a Jimmy Stewart fan. I 'll look for that one too.

>>Could the setup be wrong?

The EP175 is a fairly small sub to use with M80s. If you can adjust crossover frequency for the mains separately (eg. HK receiver) you could try taking the crossover down to 50-60 Hz so the M80s do a bit more of the work and the EP175 just has to handle the lowest notes.

Assume it sounds "not clean" only on the loudest parts of the soundtrack ?

Hey Bridgman Thanks for the reply
I have a Denon 885/2105 for a reciever and I have set up to cross @ 80.
I will try the setting you suggested.
This Denon also has another interestins setting in that you can run both the mains and the sub at the same time- I might just try that as well.
But your right about the sub being small, that's way I started to do some research on upgrading or adding another sub.
Seems like HSU, Outlaw,SVS, and of course Axiom seem to great rating in about the $600 to $1000.00 range.
Any experience with the above?
Thanks again.,

I ended up with an SVS 20-39PC+ just before Axiom brought out their high end models. I went for the SVS because I was planning to move into a larger HT area in the future and figured that was the best "bass for the buck" -- a rock solid sub with a good 12" driver and 525 honest watts. I am very happy with the SVS (it is definite overkill for my current room) but would probably be equally happy with the Hsu or the Axiom products as well. If I had to replace the SVS I would probably try the Axiom -- I believe I can overdrive the SVS if I get carried away with the volume control on a few movies, and it would be nice to have a more refined response than that loud "GRUNK". Then again, it is also possible that my house is making the "GRUNK" noise rather than the SVS, I don't have time to really investigate these things any more

I have heard the Hsu STF-2 and thought it was excellent -- it would probably still be my first choice in that range. It hardly matters these days, though... Hsu and SVS have set an incredible price-performance point in the market, and Axiom seems to have matched them with the high end products. In the lower price range Hsu has a definite price/performance advantage since they manufacture in China, vs. North America for Axiom and SVS. Not sure where the Outlaw is mfg'ed, but my first guess would be the same factory as the Hsu

You can't go wrong with any of them, really.

thanks Bridgman interesting stuff.

>>This Denon also has another interestins setting in that you can run both the mains and the sub at the same time- I might just try that as well.

If you can only set a single crossover frequency I would stay with 80 Hz other than for experimentation -- if you cross over the center and surrounds at 60 you are going to get a bit of a "hole" between the center/surrounds and the sub.

The "run them both at the same time" setting sounds like your best bet... also see if you can route the LF from the center and surrounds to your mains AND sub. It may just be Yamaha receivers which have that option...

If you can route all your LF to mains and sub, then you can start to play with the crossover on the sub as well, setting it in the 40 Hz range. That way the M80s carry all the bass down to where they roll off (a bit below 40 Hz) and the sub starts to work below 40.

>>In the lower price range Hsu has a definite price/performance advantage since they manufacture in China, vs. North America for Axiom and SVS

Interesting... looks like the new cabinets for the SVS 2 driver units (except for the smaller PB-ISD/2) come from the same factory in China where the Rockets are made. Oh well...

It's kind of frightening to think that you can make large empty wooden boxes in China, ship them to North America and STILL end up less expensive than building them here ;(