Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater epic 80-600

i finally received the package.....and was able to connect all the components....yamaha RZ1 receiver, mitsubishi 62 in 1080p tv and oppo digital player using 16 guage speaker wire and monster sub wire....and was greatly disappointed !!!!!!!!!i was expecting that WOW but never got it .....it sounded no different than the energy encore that i replaced.....not sure if i am doing everything right........i don't yet have the 4 ohms receiver but the axiom guys told me repeatedly that the yamaha receiver was more then enough....i do have another 20 dyas or so to make up my mind..any suggestions are welcome

As I'm sure others will soon mention, speaker placement, set up and source material are very important. Make sure the M80's are at least 12 inches away from the back wall, 18" would be better. It takes some tweaking to get everything set up properly.

Poorly recorded music will sound poor no matter how good the system. Make sure you are using source material that is of high quality. For movies, try The Incredibles, track #9.

16ga speaker wire is thinner than I would use, but should make very little difference if the runs are short, less than 12 feet or so.

thanks for the reply......i will try to move the speaker away from the wall.....and this was a trial run with my previous speaker wire .....i did order the axiom cable wire which i believe is 12 guage ....but i didn't want to cut it small pieces ......just in case i decide to return the package.....i will also try the incredibles and see what happens

we watched "pirates of the carribean" and the sound effects were not at all impressive...

The most obvious question is whether you have calibrated the speaker and sub levels yet. The mains/center/surround probably won't be too far out but the sub level does need to be set correctly for sure.

If your receiver has auto EQ options TURN THEM OFF. Even the automatic level setting sometimes gets things wrong; the auto-EQ often just makes good speakers sound crappy.

Sub placement also makes quite a difference... you can gain or lose some huge holes in low frequency response depending on where the sub is placed. Have you done a "sub crawl" ?

Past that, I'm not sure what to say. If you were in a small room or had all the speakers arranged in a small part of your room (the room was 23x17 or something, wasn't it ?) and were playing movies quietly I can see how you might not notice much difference from the Encores, but in your large room at real "movie experience" volumes on a movie with a dynamic sound track (ie stuff blowing up) the difference would be night and day.

I'm assuming you have been watching some of the movies that can really show off a good sound system ? The English Patient ain't gonna sound any different on the 80/600 than it did on your Encores

newkid ... Take a DEEP breath. Now exhale. Once you have the system properly calibrated, it will impress you.

So, for starters, have you calibrated it with a Radio Shack Meter and a disc like Avia ?

>>we watched "pirates of the carribean" and the sound effects were not at all impressive...

It's been months since I saw that movie but I don't remember much in the way of sound effects that would be impressive on any system... and normally I remember the soundtrack more than I remember the plot

no !!!!!!!! i haven't done anything like that.....i just connected the components and was ready to be blow away.....how do i do the caliberationssss....i am new to all this .....as you guys must have figured out by now....but i like to do things myself with some help..

i mean there are cannons fired, sword fighting, choppy sea water ?????? i will also try my pink floyd wall dvd, matrix series, lord of the rings and star wars and see what it sounds like

Ahh, stop worrying then

The basic idea of calibration is to play the same tone (usually pink noise) through each speaker in turn and adjust the levels (using adjustments in your receiver) to make each speaker play at the same volume. There are a bunch of other adjustments but getting the channel levels set is the first and most important.

The best way to do this is with a test disk (eg. Avia) and a Sound Pressure Level (SPL) meter from Radio Shack, but you can do a rough calibration with the test tones that your receiver generates. I'm not sure if the Yamahas output a test tone to the sub though...

Anyways, step 1 is to pull out the manual and find the section on adjusting speaker levels. The same section of the manual will normally also tell you how to play test tones since the two work together. The manual should also describe what you do...

- play the tone through the first speaker, note the SPL level if you have a meter

- go to the next speaker and adjust its level until it matches the previous speaker. If you don't have an SPL meter just toggle back and forth until the two seem to be about the same volume

- repeat for all channels including the sub. Note that you might have to adjust the level control on the sub to get within the range of the receiver adjustments

BTW do you have the speakers set to Large or Small, and what crossover frequency are you running ? You can probably start with everything set to Small and 100Hz crossover for now, and you can improve on this later.

Ok for starters, you need to calibrate by ear. Go into your speaker setup menu on the Yamaha. Then, as you pan from FL - C - FR - RS - RSB - LS - LSB, raise or lower the volume on each until they seem the same volume.

Next, fire up that Pink Floyd disc, and start with the subwoofer at 1/4 volume. SLOWLY turn up the bass until it sounds good to you.

Next - fire up a movie. Then let us know what you think...

bridgman is giving you the right scoop, you will get through this ...

>>i mean there are cannons fired, sword fighting, choppy sea water ??????

I can guarantee you will notice a big difference on the cannons once you have the calibration done right. The sword fighting and choppy sea water both seemed pretty quiet to me, ie the kind of sounds that the Encore would have handled fairly well.

After spending a few minutes on calibration, go watch the helicopter crash in the first Matrix film. Turn it up loud.

where can i find the avia disc and the spl.....and with regards to the m80s i did whatever was written on the axion manual....i believe it said 40.....and the sub setting at 9 o clock position.

Hmmmm, very odd you weren't blown away by watching DVD movies. I'm curious, what do you think of the EP600? Almost everyone around here who has heard has nothing but great things to say about it. Try cranking that baby up and let us know if it shakes the house. I'm not totally sure but Energy would have nothing equivalent in terms of subwoofers to the EP600.

As for DVD's to watch, defintely check out Lord of the Rings FoTR (part 1). The intro has some good sound effects but some of the BEST scenes in the entire trilogy is the Cave Troll/Balrog scene. I simply love that scene and have viewed it many, many times....never gets old. This scene is near the beginning of FoTR on disc2 in the Extended Edition.

Pop in some more action DVDs and crank up the volume. Let us know your impressions then. Is the clarity really good? When friends first heard my humble setup, they were amazed with the level of sound detail (ie. wood creaking/cracking and swords clanging against metal, etc.). The surrounds speakers add a whole new element to movies...they are simply awesome.

I picked up the Avia disk via Amazon because I happened to be out of town anyways when I first heard about calibration. I expect any place that sells lots of DVDs would have Avia... there are also a couple of other good setup DVDs but I don't remember the names, maybe Home Theater Essentials ?

The SPL meters come from Radio Shack; something like $40 US, I think. They have both analog and digital models... both have advantages but I went for the analog one. I find it easier to read but IIRC you have to switch ranges more often than with the digital.

i will do all that tonight......hope neighbours don't complain too much....my wife said they were already asking her questions about those big fedex boxes!!!!!!
i will keep you guys posted
and thanks for all your advice

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start with the subwoofer at 1/4 volume

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Yikes! With an EP-600, that's liable to blow the house down. I'd start just a tiny smidge above zero and then go up from there.

it looks very impressive......its very heavy......sound wise i am working on it....i am sure with help from you all i should be able to tweek it to prefection.

ok i got go home and try all these great suggestions...i will let you guys know what happens

where do you live?if someone on the board is close by im sure you could get some help from them.especially if they have a chance to hear the 600

Kid, as the other replies have indicated, relax; you've got excellent equipment and it'll sound significantly better than your old setup. However, it's complicated enough that you can't just plug it in and get the best results. Study the instructions, especially the ones for calibrating speaker levels and distances. Your RX-Z1 is a fine receiver and you certainly don't need to replace it, but one feature that it doesn't have is automatic calibration, which can do the job simply and accurately. So, you'll have to calibrate manually and do it by ear unless you get a sound level meter, which probably will be a little more accurate than your ears. You already have everything you need for great sound(including the speaker wire)so set it up right, play good material, and enjoy.

>>where do you live?if someone on the board is close by im sure you could get some help from them.especially if they have a chance to hear the 600

And many of us can bring an Avia disk and SPL meter with us

There is also a chance that some people expect miracles happening once they connect their new Home Theater. I would strongly suggest in that case, apart from calibrating the system and making sure everything is connected right, they go to some higher end HT store to listen, to compare. An HT cannot be a miracle, can only be a system comparable to some of the best setups in a high end store.

i live in bay area, california...if anybody wants to take a peek they are welcome.......just pm me.....last night i did try some of the suggestions....and there was some improvement...i also read the receiver manual and it has 4 ohms options....so the main fronts are running at 4 ohms.....watched the helicopter scene from matrix and the morpheue and neal match up......somewhat pleased but not entirely

i have set the main speakers to small...center to large....and whats the crossing over ?????? how do you do that .....thanks

It will take awhile for you to get comfortable with all the different settings and everything that is involved with setting up a high end system. It took me almost 2 months (not trying to scare you, just not home a lot) before I finally got it where it sounds great.

Learn the difference between small and large settings as well as the crossover settings and it'll sound sweet. I still play with different settings from time to time just to hear the differences.

I'd set all the speakers to small with the crossover at 80Hz. That is a good setting for movies. Experiment with the settings if you'd like as Shag suggests, but for starters go with that.

the 4ohm vs. 8ohm setting on your reciever shouldn't make any difference to the sound, it just limits the current so that your amp doesn't get to hot. You'll actually get more power in the 8 ohm setting but play it safe and make sure it doesn't get too hot.

We've got a guy we use in the Bay Area.

Peter the Fixer.

Ply him with good beer, and nobody gets hurt. Except maybe the neighbors.

how do i get hold of him ?

I see my reputation precedes me. (I won't let it go to my head!)

You have a PM.

I just took a quick look at these scenes :

- Morpheus vs. Neo is dramatic but is mostly visual; I wouldn't expect the Axioms to sound much different from your Encores on this scene

- Helicopter scene is something that will really show off the Axioms but only if you are not shy with the volume control. Turn it up 10-20dB from what the level you are used to with the Encores... seriously. It should be like zooming in on the sounds... the louder it goes the more you will hear.

I don't think anyone has said the following so bluntly... so let me spell it out. The Encores are a nice little HT speaker system... if you are playing the same content at the same volume you will get a bit more presence from the surrounds, and a bunch more deep bass from the EP600 (if calibrated right) but you are not going to hear much more.

What your new system can do is play clearly and accurately at volumes where the Encores would have been hopelessly overloaded... and give you a completely different listening experience as a result. We might have to have someone come over and show you how to use the volume control

I tried playing the helicopter crash at -20, -10 and 0dB on my HK630. My system is roughly comparable to an EPIC 60/500 except the sub is an SVS picked before the EP500 and 600 came out.

At -20 dB you don't hear much... obviously some glass shattering and a bit of rumble but mostly the "whoop whoop" from the rotor blades.

At -10 dB there is a lot more detail in the breaking glass. As the windows ripple you can hear the sound of the glass change with the ripples, and you hear more of the bass.

At 0 dB the sound from the glass rebounding out hits you in the stomach and makes you feel a bit queasy... every visual on the screen has accompanying action in the soundtrack...

Anyways, you get the idea. Your new speakers will accurately handle volume levels (and more volume => hearing more detail) that the Encores couldn't touch... but you have to take advantage of that to really get the most from them. If you aren't going to be able to use the headroom of the 80/600 system then you might actually have more speaker than you need... maybe a Grand Master/350 or /500 might be all you need...

Just a thought...

For the M80's I think you should set those to large (fronts). The center (VP150) should be set to small. Crossover is the point when your speakers stop receiving the signal which is then picked up by the sub. So if your crossover is set to 80Hz then all sounds above that frequency is being sent to the fronts and possibly other speakers, but sounds below 80Hz will be sent to the subwoofer. I'm sure other members can explain it better than me.

Also, try using the THX Optimizer that is included with most (if not all) Star Wars movies. They have optimizations for Audio as well as Video. I played around with my Audio and Video settings with my new Oppo player. These tests might reveal if you anyone is out of place (ie. speaker connected to different terminals or if they are out of phase).

One other mistake I made with my M60s is that I removed the metal bracket connecting the 2 sets of binding posts. Just make sure to leave that metal strip in place or else half of your speakers will be receiving the signal from your amp.

i played all those scenes at maybe 30db.....positively nothing below that...i also played the pind floyd dvd but didn't hear any of the "natural sounds" except for the baby crying ....also listened to the abba gold dvd collection but again at 30 not below it...maybe afraid that it will make too much sound !!!!!!!!! i did the caliberation thing with receiver and all speakers i thought made the same level of sound and again the fronts are selected as small and the center as large. i did pull out the fronts about 18 inches from the wall ........thanks for all your input

did you mean to say fronts as large and center as small?

I was just wondering the same thing.

no........its the other way round........fronts as small and center as large!!!!!!!hopefull its not a major crime.......i just emailed you

I could see it with the fronts to large and the center to small, but not the other way around.

thank goodness

did you get my email ??

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thank goodness

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???????

I got it and responded.

Wow, all the communication, it's just dizzying!

I really shouldn't post when I'm hungry...

Set the fronts to LARGE and the center to SMALL- or even SMALL all the way around which I do with the M80s. I get flatter base response with all speakers this way.

This was what I was trying to get across to you in my last post.

I don't think any receivers actually allow you to set them the way he initially described. Usually if the fronts are set to small, all others have to be small, as well.

Peter...

My Yamaha lets me set any speaker group to LRG or SML regardless of what the mains are set to.

Bren R.

As dllewel suggested, set all speakers to small and set your crossover for all speakers to 80hz. I do believe these are THX's specs as well although not exactly sure. Also turn the crossover dial on your sub all the way up to take it out of the equation. By doing this you will let your receiver handle the crossovers.

Honestly, I can't see any reason to ever have your center, or surrounds set to large. I used to have my M80's set to large with all others set to small. I figured the M80's were good enough to get a full range of sound with the crossover setting kicking everything else to the sub. After playing with different settings and crossovers I think I finally have what I feel sounds the best for my system. Here are my settings if you want to try them.

M80 small crossover set to 60hz
VP150 small crossover set to 80hz
QS8 small crossover set to 80hz

Keep in mind, every system may be different and everyone has a different ear.

... and, of course, only us HK owners can set a different crossover frequency for each set of speakers

Then all speakers set to small with a crossover of 80hz will work just fine for most people. My system sounds good at those settings. I just lower the crossover for the M80s because they can handle lower frequencies and because I can.

>>because I can

Same here

Newkid,

If your not happy with the sound send em back! Pretty much everyone here myself included are axiom nuts. We want you to like them. If your not happy I for one would prefer that you send em back. Thats the whole purpose of having a 30 day money back garaunty.

I haven't read all the posts but it might be that for you to get that WoW feeling it might take quite a bit for cash on your end. If you read thru almost any of the threads here most Axiom enthusiasts are about the Bang for the buck. I can tell you this...if you keep them it might be a week/month/year but eventually your going to be listening to something and it's going to hit you...and you'll grin and say Wow!

I'd hang on to the 600 regaurdless.

Leaf

You need to read this This is a truly great system TOP TOP review by Audioholics
http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/loudspeakers/AxiomAudioM80tiEP600p1.php

Like most people who dive into the high end theater/stereo systems, I was used to a system you just hook up and you're done and that's it. My old Technique system, you could not even set a crossover or even worry about "large or "small." It was all defaulted and you had no control over it.

When I first hooked up my Axioms to my HK630, the speakers sounded loud and clear but really sounded not right. This was my first venture into a high end system. After a week of reading these boards and playing around with my own system settings, I found out that the default crossover settings on the HK were set to 100hz or 120hz (I forgot which) and I had my sub woofer set to something like 40hz. I was effectively cutting off 40-120hz range worth of sound. Once I got everything tuned in I was estatic with the way my system now sounds. Even after getting everything adjusted to have a good sound, I further got everything adjusted to where I think it sounds the best.

I still play around with the settings to hear the differences. You don't always listen to the same type of music or watch the same movies. Some music/movies may sound better with different settings. Once that switch in your head clicks and you understand what all this crap means, you'll enjoy playing around with it.

When Bridgman said that only HK owners have independent crossover settings I was going to post he's wrong. But then I remembered that HK is the parent company to Lexicon, so he is right on. But I would guess there are other makes out there that allow this.

Speaking of setting the M80's to 60Hz, I tried this as well but ended up back at 80Hz. The reason is that I ran the 1hz increment test tones from 20 - 100 Hz and found that using the 80Hz crossover gave my room a flatter response over all.

As Shag said, every system is different, and probably more important every room is different acoustically. The room dimensions, Where your mains are located, where your sub(s) are located will greatly influence what sounds best.

dllewel,

Yep,me too. M80ti's at 80 Hz, everything set to Small on my H/K. Some of my colleagues use 60 Hz for the mains, others 40 Hz. It really depends on the room and the setup and your listening area.

Regards,

>>But then I remembered that HK is the parent company to Lexicon, so he is right on.

Um.... yeah, I knew that.... of course... everyone knows that... um... who ?

Thank you. That was very generous

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When Bridgman said that only HK owners have independent crossover settings I was going to post he's wrong. But then I remembered that HK is the parent company to Lexicon, so he is right on. But I would guess there are other makes out there that allow this.

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I believe Anthem also offers this crossover customization. Mind you, you also pay a heck of alot more for the Anthem.

I'm also new at this Home Theater stuff, but seem to have gotten a pretty good handle on it. I have still yet to purchase my Axioms and look forward to the day. This subject got me thinking about 'burn-in.' Seems to me I recalled reading something in a review about speakers with metal drivers may need some 'burn-in' time to soften them up. I'm not sure how long that would take. I'm curious if anyone has noticed this with Axioms and if this may be part of what is troubling Newkid? Anyway just thought I'd throw it out there.
Sips

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I believe Anthem also offers this crossover customization. Mind you, you also pay a heck of alot more for the Anthem.
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As you do for Lexicon, I guess H/K is the most bang for the buck.

This is one where you'll get virulent disagreement. Ian, the owner/designer of Axiom has said that they break in within a few seconds or minutes, something like. This is probably accomplished during the factory testing. Many people around here consider break in to occur in the user's mind, as they get acclimated to the new sound.

I noticed a very significant change in sound over the first couple of days, even when I left the speakers playing and went to work. I do acknowledge that it could be my brain adapting to the sound of the Axioms, but (a) it is a stretch but not impossible that I could adapt even when not listening to the speakers, and (b) I have never adapted to anything in my life (a bit of Vogon on my father's side) so it's highly unlikely that I would suddenly adapt to new speakers.

The reason titanium and aluminum are chosen as driver materials is that they're light and rigid. Why would you want them to soften up? It would muddy the sound. If you're referring the the other parts of the speaker breaking-in -- the surround and the spider -- then those are the same regardless of the actual cone material.

>>If you're referring the the other parts of the speaker breaking-in -- the surround and the spider -- then those are the same regardless of the actual cone material.

That is a good point, which I haven't heard before.

La la la la la la la la la la ....

let me update up guys with what i have done over the past few days......sorry couldn't post earlier......i set all speakers to small and the mains change at 90hz or below to subwoofer.......i couldn't find any way to bring it down...also i noticed that i had connected the subwoofer to the receiver at the slit jack and not the mono jack as recommended .....that has been corrected........also the surrounds were not firing as i had selected "front mains only"......so now i get the surround speakers firing and get better bass from the sub.......and i watched the helicopter scene from matrix again...and there was a big difference.........also i brought the volume upto 25db....and yes the neighbours did ask my wife again about what kind of speakers we have....i will continue to read the receiver manual and see what else can i do.......and keep you guys posted.....thanks for everybodys input...it was very helpful

Outlaw's new model 1070 has independant crossovers

how do i change the frequency on the main fronts to say 80 or less......currently they are set at 90

A quick check of the Z1's manual seems to indicate that when you set any speaker to small, there is only the fixed crossover point of 90 Hz. The crossover point doesn't seem to be selectable. My Onkyo is like that, but it's crossover point is 80Hz.

Can anybody confirm or correct me?

Jack, if you haven't been confirmed by now, why bother?

Same goes for correcting you.........

I just scanned the RX-Z1 manual, as well, and it looks like the crossover is fixed at 90Hz.

At $2700 flagship receiver, and it has a 90hz fixed crossover for all channels...yikes. What were the boys over at Yahama thinking?

Actually 90 Hz is pretty much perfect for Axiom center and surrounds; maybe there are a bunch of Axiom owners over in the Yamaha design center

after all the minor adjustments i got to watch the LOTR twin towers......the fronts and the center sounded great but my concern was with the sub....to me it appeared as if there was something loose in the sub and after making the boom sound something would "ratte or vibrate" inside...i have the sub set up at around 9 o clock position.......afraid to go further up......what might be the cause or is it just me....

It could be the sub but it's more likely to be something in your house rattling. Get some bass heavy music, turn it up until you hear the rattle on every beat, and walk around to find out exactly where it's coming from. I had to fix shelves, heating ducts, one water pipe and a couple of picture frames before I got all the rattling under control. The bottles on the bar still rattle occasionally...

Not saying it *isn't* the sub (could be something wrong with it) but normally it's something else...

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The bottles on the bar still rattle occasionally...

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That wouldn't happen if they weren't all empty

there are all kind of things in the room....we haven't completly unpacked yet......but the noise seems to come from the sub itself !!!!!

RE. The reason titanium and aluminum are chosen as driver materials is that they're light and rigid. Why would you want them to soften up? It would muddy the sound. If you're referring the the other parts of the speaker breaking-in -- the surround and the spider -- then those are the same regardless of the actual cone material.

I guess I really wasn't sure of what 'break-in' is supposed to do. I apparently misspoke by using the 'softening up' commment. Here's an excerpt from the review that sparked my comment:

http://www.onhometheater.com/product/20020801.htm
(okay, explain how to paste this as a link. Rookie move)

...following, as it did, on the heels of the Thiel PowerPoints, which cost $1300 each, and the superb Polk LSi15-based system, which costs about twice as much as the Axioms.

And, I must confess, the transition was not a painless one. The Axioms definitely have a break-in period during which the tweeter seems quite rough and the woofers seem decidedly lightweight. But over time that began to change, and it wasn't long before I began to notice how much I was enjoying films and music through the system. ...

http://www.onhometheater.com/product/20020801.htm

It's true that a new speaker system will sound different over time, but it has much more to do with the listener's perception of the sound changing over time than it does with the speaker actually undergoing physical changes over time. It makes sense when you think about it. A new speaker in your own home will have a sound that you are not used to. As you become accustomed to the sound, the way you perceive it changes.

This is similar to something I call the "barking dog phenomenon." Many of the homes on my block have dogs, most of which will bark from time to time when they are outside in their yards. I barely notice it when they bark since I'm so used to hearing it. Occasionally, a new or visiting dog will bark and I really notice because it's not something I hear regularly. It's not any louder than the other barks, it just doesn't sound the same as the barks I'm used to hearing. My brain is more acutely aware of that new bark since it hasn't been filed into the "normal" category. If that dog stays in the neighborhood, over time its bark will be filtered into the background noise along with the others.

Re: over time its bark will be filtered into the background noise along with the others.
The same thing applies to wives/girlfriends (if you can get away with it)!

LOL! (but don't tell anyone I laughed)

i am still waiting for someone close to me to help me out...the sub just doesn't sound "right"..and i cann't figure out what......and i have already begun to like the speakers so no way i am going to return them....but i need some help sooooon
thanks

I unfortunately had to rescind my offer to help newkid, as I am very busy preparing for a new baby and a cross-country move. Any other takers?