Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Video scalers and video upconversions? Worth it?

Ok, well we all know that the hd-dvd is coming soon. I'm wondering if I should add a video scaler or upconversion to my existing dvd player or wait for hd-dvd to come out, or buy the 720p dvd players. I have Denon 1600 dvd player which I absolutely love and is highly regarded according to the dvd shootout. I understand its only 420p and it looks good on my Toshiba 50 inch rear projection. So lets say I want to view it 720p or higher on my tv, would it be best to get samsung 720p player or get upconversion to add to my dvd player? I know new dvd player is cheaper and has 720p but I'm not sure if it has same quality as the denon 1600, etc? Also do any of you know if regular dvds will play in the hd-dvd player or not? I would hate to buy all new dvds just to watch in hd resolution for the hd-dvd player. So what are your opinions, etc and best route to take?

I have a Samsung DVD player connected via HDMI to my 1080p 61' DLP tv. The picture looks just like the HD picture from my Time Warner Explorer 8300 HD box. I dont even care about the true HD Dvd players because the image im getting right now is HD quility.

If the scaler in your TV/PJ/DVD player is decent, then it probably isn't worth it to add an external scaler. At least not with HD-DVD near. YMMV.

I enjoy my Panny S97S with my Sanyo Z2.

Well if you already love your denon then why get something else? HD-DVD might be around the corner but the inital players will be around $1000 and might not even be around in the future due to the standards wars. I assume both players will have extra lasers for regular DVD playback, if not then I would never consider em.

Stick with your Denon since its highly regarded and cus you love it. Perhaps I'm wrong but I doubt you would be able to discern a difference with your Denon vs a video scalar.

from what i have seen, the main people that get scalers is people with projectors.. i would think it is only going to be worth spending the money if you were going to upconvert everything to 1080p..

Eric, note that all present DVDs are 480i. If the TV has a "native resolution" such as 720p, then the 480i from the DVD has to be deinterlaced(i.e. from i to p)and scaled up(from 480 to 720)so that the picture can be shown properly on the 720p TV. This doesn't mean that it's actually 720 quality, but it can be displayed on the set. So, you're always seeing things at 720p on that TV, although it's not the full resolution if it's been scaled up from 480. The TV set itself deinterlaces and scales up if something else hasn't done those processes(e.g. a player, some receivers or a separate scaler). The only question would be if one of those did a visibly better job of it than the TV itself, and no blanket answer can be given, because it varies.

Yes, I love my denon 1600 player which is connected via component to my Toshiba 50hdx82 which is hdtv ready crt rear projection. I am going to get front projection in few years and everything will be 1080p. But what I was wondering is what can I do to get better picture than 420p from my current setup? Best to get upconverter, etc? Another reason I'm asking is because I was told that if I put my normal dvds in a hd-dvd player then it will still be 480p instead of true high definition? If so, then I would hate to buy 300+ movies in hd to replace my standard ones. Although I was thinking when I get front projection then I could use my denon 1600 as 2nd dvd player or cd player and have better player in few years to compliment with the front projector. Also about the upconverter as I was reading that it would take 420i from dvd player and convert it to 720p or 1080i for the rear projection. Is that how it works? Is the picture quality better that way?

John: are you absolutely sure that ALL DVDs are in 480???

Sure, Bernard, unless European PAL DVDs(576)are considered.

yep. DVDs can't be DVDs unless they adhere to the standard.

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are you absolutely sure that ALL DVDs are in 480

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I'm sure too!

BTW. Is your sony an upconverting TV.? It might be making your dvds seem better if it is.

John: I bought a "special" Superbit DVD of "The Fifth Element" which says "Superbit DVDs utilize a special high bit rate digital transfer process that optimizes video quality..........." I was thinking that a higher bit rate implied a higher resolution.

Bug: The Sony will upconvert the various formats to 1080P. I also bought a new OPPO DVD player which will upconvert. I have read the pros and cons of where to do the upconverting and have tried it a couple of ways. Haven't noticed much difference. One thing that I am convince of is that you DON'T want to do your upconverting/ scaling in your audio receiver!!!!!! Let the TV do it or the DVD player, but NOT your audio receiver. I am wondering why anyone would do it that way??

So lets say my tv will do 720p and 1080i which is the hdtv ready rear projection and that I use progressive on my denon 1600 player which is 420p. So if I want better picture quality keeping my dvd player then I should buy an upconverter? Does it actually convert it to 720p?

Eric, again the DVD is 480i(not 420), and your player can deinterlace the i to p. If the TV has a native resolution of 720p, then it deinterlaces 480i to p(if the player hasn't already done it)and scales the 480 up so that it can be shown on the 720 screen. As I said before, no, an "upconverter"(scaler)can't actually convert to full 720 resolution. If a separate one would do a better job of scaling to 720 than the TV does(no way to know beforehand)then the picture would look slightly better.

Oh I see! So its best to leave it as it is as 480p from my dvd player since it does better job than the tv. And if the dvd itself was 720p or higher than 480i then that would make the biggest difference and get dvd player that supports that dvd format, ie hd-dvd. Am I on the right track?

ereed: I am not familar with the specifications of the Denon 1600. However, I would suggest that you try the following experiments BEFORE buying an external upconvertor.

A. If possible, try the Denon with an output of 720P and then 1080I. Determine if you can see any picture difference.

B. If possible, set the Denon to 480 and let the TV do the upconverting. Determine if you can see any picture difference with A.

If your HDTV is only a year or so old, I strongly suspect that you would NOT see any picture difference compared to the best of A or B with an external upconvertor.

If all things are equal, I strongly believe that you should upconvert with equipment closest to your source material. If all things are NOT equal, upconvert with the equipment that does it best!!!

Superbit DVDs are still 480i, but they leave all the extras off the movie disc so that the full DVD can be used to maximize the picture quality. Essentially, the movie is less compressed, so more of the detail is retained. So, yes they do look (substantially) better than a regular DVD, but they are still 480i.

I am dredging up an older thread here as I have been researching for future purchases. Ratpack made a comment that no one should consider doing upscale or upconversion through their receiver. Intuitively, that sounds reasonable to me. However, I have also done some research on another forum, AVS, and there are several threads there with throngs of followers dedicated to receivers like the Denon 3806 and the Yamaha 2600. The hook seems to be the upscale to 1080i. That brings me to the question - with these new receivers, has there been a change in the "best" or "preferred" method of upscaling? I have cable now but not digital cable. I don't have a new tv but that would be a future purchase. I like the new SXRD Sonys - would they better handle the upscaling or upconversion. I have a lot of uncertainties - hoping to clear them up here - and I never like to walk into a large purchase (particularly audio/video) unless I know at least as much or more than the salesman.

Arg, welcome. There really shouldn't be a fixed "best" or "preferred" method of scaling. As was said before, it depends on whether the scaling would be best in a particular player(if it scales), or a particular receiver(if it scales), or in the TV itself, which has to deinterlace and scale any incoming signal to fit its "native resolution" if the player or receiver hasn't already done it. All reports on the SXRD, for example, indicate that it has excellent deinterlacing and scaling, so it would be unlikely that the player or receiver would do a visibly better job of it. So, there's always uncertainty, but the best modern TVs are superb at this.

I viewed and briefly reported on a friend's upscaling dvdp awhile back.
The results were rather sad.
Hopefully the technology has come along in the past half year in other devices.

arg: one other thing to consider with my post, the audio receiver probably costs about $1500 and the TV (about 60") probably costs about $5000. In which piece of equipment do you think that the manufacturer can cost effectively put the best scaler?

Just something to think about.

The receiver. That big a screen costs serious dough, even for the manufacturer.

LOL!! Wrong!

Actually the screen is not the big price driver. The light engine is from what I've read unless you are talking about a plasma. Then you are Correct.

Rat - Ken's point is still well-taken. It all depends on margins. If the $5,000 grand TV spends all of its money on the screen, the light engine, etc., then maybe it actually has allocated less $ to the scaler. Especially considering some receivers that tout their ability to "upconvert" signals to component or HDMI, etc. - these receivers might spend some considerable money making this function work well.

On the flip side, the receiver doesn't necessarily know what the native display of every individual monitor is, whereas the TV only needs to worry abotu converting a certain finite number of input resolutions (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i) into the sets native display. Typically, the TV will be able to do a better job because the scaler will be specifically designed to makes these conversions. In addition, certain sets have weird resolutions, (1024 X 768, e.g.), requiring some internal scaling no matter what.

My plasma is a weird 768p set, so I leave the cable box on 480i and 1080i (since the majority of HD channels - ESPN and ABC aside - Output 1080i) and let the TV do the work. However, for DVD, to help keep the video and audio in sync, I let the DVD player output a 480p signal (allowing the dvd player do the interlacing), but I let the TV do the scaling. This combination gives me the best picture, IMO.

Thanks for the several replies. I am like several of the posters that I have read about - used to have great plans for HT back in the 90's. Then I had kids and got sidetracked. Now the kids are starting to college and I can turn some attention back to HT. The issue is that technology has not waited on me and in a lot of cases, I am at the edge of my envelope in understanding. Sooo..I'll spend time learning by reading and trying to learn and pop up every now and then when I am missing the point. As an observation, this forum seems a lot more civil than other forums and the members here tend to speak in terms that I can understand. It is appreciated.

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...I am at the edge of my envelope in understanding.

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I understand completely. The days of just plugging it in, and turning it on are long gone. We'll be glad to provide any help that we can.

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...this forum seems a lot more civil than other forums...

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You must've missed the "Surrender" thread. Count your blessings.

The surrender thread?

It was a thread, in the Water Cooler section of the forum, that concerned politics. IMHO, it got out of hand with insults and uncalled for comments that caused some bad feelings. Apparently the forum moderator thought it out of hand as well, as the thread was recently deleted. There have been VERY few threads deleted from this forum, at least in my tenure. That this one WAS deleted indicates how bad it was.

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Especially considering some receivers that tout their ability to "upconvert" signals to component or HDMI

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Please correct me if I am wrong but "upconvert" and "upscale" are two different things.

Receivers upconvert signals from composite, s-video to component or hdmi. They make the signal compatible with the next better output. There is no change in resolution or signal quality, only the type of output available.

"Upscale" attempts to change resolution to a higher level. I don't know of any receivers or pre/pros that do this.

No?

To get a decent video scaler you should plan on spending about 1000-2000$ for the video scaler alone.. I'm thinking about getting a scaler my self, but kind of on the fence due to the cost..

http://www.dvdo.com/index.php

I'm thinking about getting the vp30, or their next generation of that product, depending on their time frame, and my finances at the time. What I want is something that will upscale regular cable channels to 1080i depending on what the outcome will be, to bad more content isn't broadcast in 1080i or even 480p…

Yeah - reading that part again, you're right. I'm wrong. Sorry about that. Lapse of reason...

Jack, I had been reading that Surrender thread and was surprised it had gone on as long as it had. There were many undignified posts by people who should know better. This forum isn't supposed to be a place for people to espouse their strong political views and I hope a similar occurrence will be avoided.

I have thought about a scaler for my HT but am pretty satisfied with the performance of my s97 and sim2 ht300e projector. My plan is to buy a hd-dvd when they become available and skip 1080p scaler. I don't want yet another hardware component on my rack.

HK 7300 - 480i to 480p
HK 740 - 480i to 720p, 1080i (available this month)
Yamaha 2600 - 480i to 480p, 720p, 1080i (digital receiver)