Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners QS series surrounds

OK...my next quest is a pair of QS surrounds. I've got a couple of questions.

1) QS4 or QS8? Which and why?

2) Do they come with all the gear necessary to wall mount? Do you need to mount them to a wall stud? How do they wall mount?

(1) QS8 if you can afford them. Because, um... the bigger the better!

(2) There was a recent thread on this very topic at the AVS forum. As you see in the thread, I recommend you mount them (especially the heavier QS8's) to the stud. But some other people claim that the drywall anchors should be strong enough, which I am still unconvinced especially because you are dealing with SPEAKERS, which constantly generate vibrations. And yes, the QS surrounds come with a special brackets for wall-mounting, which I fastened into the stud using regular woodscrews. Once it is done, you simply "hung" the QS onto the bracket.

Go get a $25 stud finder at the Home Depot, if you don't have one.

The problem generally isn't finding the stud, it's the fact that the stud is never where I want to hang something.

Hey...you changed your picture. I liked the mad scientist one!

The bigger the better, eh? You are of course speaking of the speakers and not the "studs", right? (sorry...couldn't resist)

Here ya go! (did you notice the little mouse in my pocket?)

Studs? -- uh... ours are all 2x4.

My QS8's are hung with drywall anchors and they've been fine. Just make sure the anchors our strong enough to support the load.

I've heard there are drywall hangs available that can hold up to 50lb loads and more.
I haven't seen them yet though. Try asking the local Home Depot guys.

Right. There are "professional" drywall hungers available, designed to hung big, heavy and hugely expensive arts, etc.

Wasn't sure what that was in your pocket...I was guessing something in the lab rat variety though.

It definitely is not Rattus rattus.
Hmm, may have to get a closer look at that little rodent.

Hey you interested in buying my black QS8s (so I can get them in one of those custom colors)? Probably not since you said something like, "Ugh, black!", recently.

I don't ever recall saying "ugg black". But I would like to keep all my Axiom's in the Boston Cherry. Of course a really good deal on black QS8's could change my mind.

Mus musculus domesticus

The custom coat color shown is called agouti.

I always preferred rattus norvegicus, as pets, of course.

As to which, QS4 or QS8, if your room is of fair size, and can afford it, go with the Eight.. I'm sure the Fours are great, but the 8's have a the edge with upgraded speakers and tweeters..
Hanging them is really simple.. The '4' at 5.5 lbs or the '8' at 11 lbs, no biggier either way.. Just go to Home Depot or Lowe's, and pick up a little pac of "EZ Anchors"..
Believe me, these things really work, and are so simple to use.. All you need is a Phillips screw driver.. They are not expensive at all, small in size, finish off flush with the wall, and can hold up a baby grand piano if needed.. You will only need two or three anchors per each Axiom provided bracket..

My QS8's are mounted using dry wall anchors and they're sturdy as hell. There's no give to them and I've certainly never had a fall. I wouldn't worry about finding studs specifically, though it would certainly be nice if there happened to be studs where you wanted to mount.

Thanks for the tips guys.

If in doubt -- and you're really sure you're never going to move,upgrade your speakers, or paint the walls -- slather a bunch of this stuff in between the speakers and the wall, too.

Or as wire cutters... My lamp still attests to this. ;-)

Will,
I am in the market for some black QS8's. Lemme know if you are seriously interested and maybe we can work out a deal.

Jason
colesy@umich.edu

What's up Colesy? I haven't heard much from you lately. How goes your upgrading?

Yeah it has been awhile. I kind of slowed down (yeah right). I added a couple of amps (2 Ch Parasound and mono). Other than that I have been putting full concentration on expanding my DVD collection. I have been kind of half heartedly been searching out a pair of QS8's but they seem pretty elusive. I hope everything is going well in your neck of the woods.

Jason

Jason:

What do you think of the Parasound amps?

I've been wondering how much it would impact my setup by adding the 5-channel Parasound HCA-2205A (or possibly the 2-channel HCA-1500A) and using the Denon AVR-3803 as a pre/pro. I hate to be so anal, but the only thing bothering me about my current set-up (I'm using the M60s as mains) is the sibilance I hear in Rebecca Pigeon's Spanish Harlem, although this was also noted in a review of the M22ti. Please note that I only caught the reference to this song only after I had already noticed it myself. I also wouldn't mind having the extra power to drive the M60s as I am already at 00 (on a -80 to +12 scale) on the 3803 at 75 dB (my normal movie listening level) using the AVIA DVD and the Radio Shack SPL meter. In music, which is at least 70% of my use, I normally listen at -10 dB.

I would appreciate your observations on the Parasound amps.

I've been considering doing the same thing, but not necessarily with the amp you mentioned. I'm wondering if the brand of amp you use is going to change the quality of sound you get out of your speakers. I like the sound of my Denon 2802, but it would be nice to have more power and a little more "musicalness?" in 2 channel stereo.

Will switching to an outboard amp change the "flavor" of the signal sent to my speakers? Or will everything I play always sound the same due to the processors in the Denon?

When I jumped from my flagship Onkyo (TX-SV919thx) to Rotel seperates, the first and most noticable difference was punchier, tighter bass. I've heard that that is the most common "improvement" when adding a seperate more powerful amp. I really doubt adding an amp to your Denon is going to make anything sound worse.

I wasn't concerned that an outboard amp might make it sound "worse". I was wondering if its just going to sound the same - with the ability to play louder. If it isn't going to be a night and day improvement I'd rather wait and see what my next move might be (big screen, behemoth sub, dedicated theater, etc...)
I do believe that a salesworn at Circuit City told me that the more powerful amps deliver better bass. Don't know if that's true or not.
You never worked at Circuit City, did you?

Mark, not only won't it be night and day, it probably won't even be midnight and 12:01AM. More power, whether by way of separates or otherwise, won't necessarily make the slightest difference in bass or anything else audible. If you had say 200 watts per channel instead of 100 that would give you 3db more headroom. If your set up distorted audibly at say 115db peaks, you'd now be able to do 118db. Unless your 2802 is audibly distorting(unlikely) relax and spend your money on something that makes a difference.

Thanks, John. 3db doesn't sound like much and I have yet to max out the 2802, anyway. I had just remembered reading something a while back from a guy who didn't like the sound of the Denon receivers for music. I love the detail it shows in music, but it isn't as soft and silky sounding as my old Onkyo. Of course the old Onkyo didn't provide the detail of the Denon. I'm sure there is an expensive solution to get the best of both worlds, but I've got bigger fish to fry.

I think I might start working the old lady over for a big screen instead.

I really felt that it improved the quality of the sound I was getting from my fronts. It sounds kind of strange but the one thing I noticed while watching movies was the silence. It's kind of hard to explain but for example,in the the extended version of LOTR where Frodo is reading in the woods prior to Gandalf's arrival sounded sweet. The birds chirping in the background, the wind blowing through the trees made me feel like I was there. When the fellowship was awaiting the balrog's appearance it was so eerily quiet it sent chills up my spine.I didn't add the amps to try to beef up my "loudness" I added them to attempt to make every sound as realistic as possible. I don't know all the spec and mathematic decibal equation gobbeldy gook but I know what I like. In my case the addition of the Parasound amps improved the sound reproduction. It also made my 2 channel music sound much better. Any acoustic music sounded great. So in the end I would say do what you like, for me the amps were a welcomed addition to my system.

J

John, just a thought.. Doesn't that additional headroom given by a bigger amp (especially with separates) give a better (using 'better' for lack of a more technical term) sound, as the amp does not have to work as hard to gain the same results ? (He asked, as he stood scratching his head)
Or, as with separates, the pre/pro doesn't have to share the onboard power supply with the amp(s).. Wouldn't this then equate to a cleaner, or less negativley effected signal reaching the speakers ??
How's this: Small watt, inexpensive amp compared to larger watt top end amp.. Both driven at the lower end of their respective power rating, into the same make speaker, to produce the same SPL.. Would there be difference in the quality of the sound produced ? I have found that in most cases there is (only not home gear, concert sound reinforcement equip).. So, and I hope I'm not stretching this too far, would it not stand to reason that a quailty amp, not sharing power supplies, additional circuits, etc, and, having a great deal more headroom, would indeed provide a more quailty sound ?
I would really like to know, as I have been wanting to upgrade to some quaility power (separates), but have not tested or proven my own (just stated) theory with high end ($$) home stereo gear, only with large concert equipment..

Mikey, there shouldn't be an audible difference in the situation you describe. Remember that at average comfortably loud sound levels speakers use about 1 watt. Much more can be called for on peaks, but as long as its power capability isn't exceeded, a relatively low-powered amp will continue to amplify the music without audible distortion; it doesn't care that it's working harder, as long as it can still do it. So, no, the added headroom(say 200 watts instead of 20 watts)doesn't result in audibly better sound unless on some rare instance that extra headroom actually had to be used. When the power used didn't exceed say 10 watts the two amps would be audibly identical, unless the 20 watt amp(or the 200 watt amp)was audibly inferior in some other respect, which would be unusual these days. Clean power is cheap.

My personal take on the psychology of separate vs. integrated electronics is, the design philosophy with over-spec'ed parts. When you look into the innards of an AV receiver vs. a separate power amp with identical (actual, third-party measured) power outputs, you always find that the separate amp has much bigger heatsinks, transformer(s) and power capacitors, etc. The question is whether, given that the measured power outputs are essentially identical, these bigger things really lead to a better sound quality. By definition, these bigger parts are over-spec’ed with respect to obtaining the given level of power output. While the little tech nerd in me would freely admit that the innards of the separate look infinitely more “beautiful” (and that may well lead to a better sound perceived by me), you can also argue that the integrated AV receiver has achieved the “art of just-enough design” at a higher level, producing the same power output and other specs within a much more demanding space (and often cost) requirements.

John, Sushi,
You guys are not making it any easier for me to convince my wife I "NEED" more gear..
If I'm note careful here, I will lose next years appropriation fundings !! She would just love to cut into MY reserves and use them for something really silly.. Like more flowers in the garden (that I would have to plant) or new drapes for the kitchen (that I would have to hang).. Well, you get the picture..
So from now on remember, everything is essential and most certainly needed.. :-)

If that's the case then you absolutely NEED to have a Rotel setup. RSP-1095 amp paired with their new RSP-1098 processor.

That preamp is a truly beautiful piece of equipment, spiff.

As far as the amp goes, however, I'm still waiting for an amp that gives me 1F of capacitance per channel.

Ok, gotta ask. What would that gain you?

BIG CAPACITORS!

Yes, thank you for explaining what I knew already. ;-) What would BIG CAPACITORS do for the sound, amplification, etc technically speaking? I know they're a good thing, I just don't know why.

Lemme try to 'splain in, then.

You know how an amplifier rated at X watts into Y ohms is not constantly delivering that wattage, right? Right. So let's say you're listening to the 1812 Overture right before the cannons start to fire. You're on the verge of a huge transient and a huge change in required power. When called upon, the caps will dump their stored energy into the amp in order to meet the needs of the cannons. The larger the capacitor, the more energy it can store and deliver when called upon.

In addition to storing the energy, capacitors also act as filters. Since they sit between your wall outlet and the output stage of the amp, any irregularites in the flow of power to and from the power supply will be smoothed out and not propagated down the line.

K, that makes sense. I'm pretty sure I knew some of that before, but I just wasn't remembering. Thanks!

To add my $0.02 to Peter’s excellent explanation, my understanding is that there are two schools of amplifier power-supply design:

(1) Use a power supply with an excellent regulation to start with, so that the power-rail voltage won’t “sag” too much even when all channels are fully driven. If the power supply maintains, say, 90% of the voltage under full load, then there will be less benefits of using a bulkier, higher-capacitance power capacitors.

(2) Don’t care too much about the power-supply regulation, and instead, supplement the power supply voltage under the full-load transients during music playback by the discharge from big power capacitors. This is so-called the “crest factor” school of amplifier design.

For example, the earlier generations of NAD amps (don’t know about the current models) and the current Sony ES receivers belong to (2) -- they can deliver a much higher transient power for a short time period (1 second or so) than what they can deliver steady-state. In contrast, according to the HiFi News (UK) measurements, the Pioneer Elite 45TX clearly belong to (1) above -- its power supply does not give in too much even when fully loaded steady-state.

Both schools of design are valid, and in reality, most practical designs belong to somewhere in-between. But my understanding is that the high-regulation power transformers have come a long way, so that today it is often easier and less costly (both in terms of money and space) to go with (1). That is why we don’t see anymore, even in the high-end separate amps, those HUGE capacitors that used to be found often in older amps.

But alas, the coolness factor of a 1-Farad capacitor would be worth it alone! I remember a professor discharching a "full" 1-Farad capacitor in a darkened lecture hall by placing a bar of metal between the contacts.

Result? An extremely bright and VERY LOUD spark.

Gee, now I want to open up my H/K 525 to see what it looks like! Probably won't though; it's a pain to move it around...

Dude, I must have slept through that lecture. You didn't have the motorcycle riding dork for Physics 7B, did you?

Peter,

Go ahead and buy those 2-Farad power caps and connect them between your amp's power rails. Beware that these can tolerate only up to 20V DC, so you will have to connect ~4 of them in series for each of the plus/minus power rails, depending of your amp's rail voltage. That will still be a whopping 0.5 Farad. You will surely experience a HUGE improvement in dynamic range and sound stage, and feel as if Yo Yo Ma is playing right in front of you. But in order to get these effects, you will have to display those 8 big capacitors prominently in front of your amp. A slight inconvenience in ergonomics is a small price to pay...

I think you're on to something!

Someone needs to design a solid-state amp that is reminiscent of a tube amp, with huge capacitors proudly displayed externally. The caps could be placed inside a protective halogen-gas-filled tube that glows brighly during moments of high current output. Hmmmmm....

I like the bit about "computer grade" in the description. I don't know of any computers that have 2.0 Farad caps in them! Sounds like a good way to melt a motherboard to me...