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#1314 - 02/01/02 07:14 AM 2 questions please
Anonymous
Unregistered


What is the difference between the M60's and the M80's? Is the quality different or just the loudness. and I'm planing on getting one of those and the qs8 and vp150. I was planing on either the Onkyo 797 or the Denon 3802 but I read that the 3802 should not be used with 4ohm speakers. Would this matter if I get the above setup? I might try and hold out for the Onkyo 898 but thats about 1,000 and I don't have that considerning I'm getting the speakers as well. Which one of the receivers would best go with this setup



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#1315 - 02/01/02 03:09 PM Re: 2 questions please
Ian Offline
President
aficionado

Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 808
Sonically, these two loudspeakers are very similar, but there is a dynamic difference. The M80s do go lower than the M60s, with a bit more snap, and more power, as you noted.

As to the receiver question, we have a lot of experience with Denon receivers and we find them very very good. We feel that they have no problem driving 4 ohm loads, as we drive them very hard in our labs and we haven't ever have a problem with them (and our customers seem to feel the same way).

Ian Colquhoun
President & Chief Engineer
_________________________
Ian Colquhoun
President & Chief Engineer

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#1316 - 02/01/02 05:36 PM Re: 2 questions please
BBIBH Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/10/02
Posts: 1039
Loc: Canada
Keep in mind that "have no problem driving 4 ohm loads, as we drive them very hard in our labs and we haven't ever have a problem with them" does not in anyway mean this piece will sound good. Resilient, yes, quality, maybe.

Regards,

BBIBH
_________________________
Regards,

Mike

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#1317 - 02/01/02 10:43 PM Re: 2 questions please
KevinS Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/01
Posts: 30
Loc: Ontario
Subjectiveness counts alot in music/movie fidelity, if you want to go with the Denon, I guess it all depends on the quality of equipment you had before.

I had an Akai for 17 years before I purchased my Denon 1800 and of course there's a huge difference, but everything you buy is subjective to your likes/dislikes and how much you want to spend.

My Denon powers the M80, VP150 and QS8, all stated to be 4ohms and I have no problems pushing them very loud, clean levels with a meager 75 watts - 8 ohms (110W - 6 ohms)

If you like it, buy it, don't worry what other people have to say about it.



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#1318 - 02/01/02 11:34 PM Re: 2 questions please
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks for the replies ppls. The fact of the matter is this is my first system and I want to make sure I get something that will sound good, last a while and not have to be upgraded in a year. However, I can't go crazy because I'm buying everything at once. No sence of having a receiver sit for a few months while I save for speakers or vise versa. I have the 1300.00+ needed for the M60, VP150 and QS8's and about 700 + for a receiver. In a week I will have the 455 for the sub I want. (Polk PSW650) It's the best I've read for the price.
I would love to hold out for the Onkyo 898 but I don't know if I'd be able to meet that price. It's about 250+ more than the system with the Denon 3902 or the Onkyo 797. Including the 898 that's about 2800.00 total. I can do about 2500.00 or so but I'd have to wait for the other 200 for about a month. SO I guess the 2 remaining questions are. 1) Do I buy either the 3802 or the 797 now and if so which one or do I bide my time and hold out for the 898 or something comprable? Decisions decisions arrrrrgggggg!!!
I really appreciate your taking the time to reply to my questions.
Joe



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#1319 - 02/02/02 06:21 PM Re: 2 questions please
Ian Offline
President
aficionado

Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 808
Actually it sounds very good. The sonic differences between amplifiers are relatively small if any. Generally the perceived sonic difference is in fact good dynamic headroom and thus the lack of any distortion on those high-powered peaks that music and movies require to be reproduced.

Ian Colquhoun
President & Chief Engineer
_________________________
Ian Colquhoun
President & Chief Engineer

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#1320 - 02/02/02 10:37 PM Re: 2 questions please
BBIBH Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/10/02
Posts: 1039
Loc: Canada
I can not comment on movies, as HT is a minor role in my way of life. However the statement that "the sonic differences between amps is relatively small if any", is completely dependent upon the quality and design of the amp. A Denon amp would be vastly outperformed in every conceivable way buy any number of amps. This is not a fair comparison based on price points, but a Krell, YBA, Levinson, SimAudio would be leagues ahead. I know I have always posted praising price point comparisons, but I also state that this is to be noted before comparisons. The Denon would be much better than a Jutan (remember Candle?) by comparisons sake, but not in terms of being held strictly to your statement.

Anyway, not trying to pick an arguement, just a little conjecture!

Regards,

BBIBH
_________________________
Regards,

Mike

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#1321 - 02/12/02 07:52 PM Re: 2 questions please
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yes, I guess Krell, YBA, Levinson, SimAudio would be "leagues ahead" of Denon. In the same way Wilson Audio speakers would be leagues ahead of Paradigm, NHT, or, dare I say it, even Axiom. But who has $100,000 to blow on a pair of speakers? The point is that you'll eventually hit a point of marginal returns--where a perceptible increase in sound quality will require you to spend not hundreds, but thousands of dollars--the area of hi-fi reserved for golden-ears and professionals, NOT necesarily for home audio. Anyone can name high priced brands, but only few can or should own them.

I agree with Ian, at this point and for this audience (i.e. the average consumer) the sonic differences between amplifiers is fairly small. But by all means, if you are one of those with the ears and the cash to demand better sounding equipment, go for it. Just remember, spending more on quality speakers (moving up in the line from m60s to m80s) will probably yield a much more perceptible increase in sound quality than going overboard with the amp. Take home note: don't go overkill with the amps because you don't need to, just make sure it will drive your speakers without clipping, shutting off, overheating, and at the volumes you like to listen at.



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#1322 - 02/13/02 12:26 PM Re: 2 questions please
BBIBH Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/10/02
Posts: 1039
Loc: Canada
I think that you have taken a very broad approach to commenting on the issues you address. If you believe that you must spend heavily to achieve hifi, you have not done your homework. There are many amplifiers that are in the $600-$1k range that are the equals of many costing 3-4 times that. However, stating that sonic quality is reserved for a select few, and not for home audio is completely wrong and misguided.

....I remember the day when, sitting upon Mount Olympus, the Greek god of Auido, reached down and spoke thusly " From this day forward, you, by virtue of your extra sensory quality of your hearing are elevated into.....(wait for it)....the Golden Ears Realm. Please.....

Thos who know of my posts, will recognize this:
- I recommend the source be the most important decision.
I have not wavered from this principle. In building a system, the source should be the best quality, and the rest of the system addressed in due time. Most big box stores emphasize speakers and receivers. However if a source can not reporduce the music on the mdeia, the downstream components CAN NOT add this missing information. In terms of impressions, most consumers hear and see the speakers first, so they are inclined to purchase them. Will they make a bigger impression with end users...of course. But adding hifi speakers to a mass market amp and source will in no way be as musical as adding mass market speakers to a hifi source and amp.

You are correct, Wilson is leagues ahead of all the models/brands you mention. But again as those who know my posts:
- price points in the market demand that products be delivered that are strict to the cost=product+profit.

For this reason, it can be gauged that with less restrictions placed on delivering a speaker at a price point, the designer can use a better quality of internal parts. Does this always gaurantee a better performance? Not by a long shot.

Another edict I profess is:
- go and listen to an expensive system.
Do you like the sound? Perhaps you can not afford it, and no person will condemn another for not being able to do this. But most have not heard to line pieces, and are of the opinion that Best Buy/Futureshop (to cover both the US and Canadian big box store niche) contains the best there is. Another misconception. I urge you to seek out a true midfi/hifi dealer and listen. Don't take anyones word on the sound you hear....do you like it? Was it musical?

The bottom line is that some pieces are better than others. This is no different than any other consumer product.

But enough rambling....(sound of BBIBH jumping down off soapbox)

Regards,

BBIBH
_________________________
Regards,

Mike

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#1323 - 02/13/02 12:48 PM Re: 2 questions please
Anonymous
Unregistered


Actually, most professionals (not just big box stores) assert that spending more on speakers will give you a more noticeable increase in sound quality. And the fact that "speakers can't add information that components upstream don't provide for it" is true. I'll concede that point. This is true in theory, but not necessarily in a real listening room. However, amps don't provide the signal, they only amplify it so that the current can drive the speakers. Therefore, you're really advocating spending more on CD players than on speakers, which I doubt many people will agree on, but which may fit your personal listening tastes more. The second point is that it is not usually the amp that is the LIMITING FACTOR to good sound. Many lower priced receivers (NAD, Denon, Onkyo) will reproduce a very similar digital signal when amplifying from a CD player. But it is how the speakers translate this signal into sound that makes people who appreciate good sound spend big bucks. That's why many professional reviewers say that spending more on speakers will yield an incrementally (again with marginal returns) larger increase in sound quality than spending more on cd players, amps, or processors as long as the components upstream are of at least decent quality and can drive your speakers without distorting or overheating.

Finally, I'm not saying that hi-fi audio is only for a deserved few. The post was about, and is still about, the notion of marginal returns, not about the establishment of an audio elite. If you can afford more and you can honestly hear sound quality differences, then more power to you. But unless you've been professional trained to listen for sonic differences, most consumers will reach a point where they honestly won't hear a substantial difference in sound quality, and especially not substantial enough to justify spending thousands more. At this point, at the point where you yourself can't hear any difference in sound quality or at least you can't justify to yourself spending thousands more to get an infinitesimally small increase in sound quality, that is where you should stop spending, purchase the product, and be happy with what you purchased without ANY regrets about not purchasing those $100,000 Wilson Audio speakers.



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