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#141400 - 06/11/06 10:19 PM Re: My 2nd attempt at graphing my room response? [Re: Rapmon]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13311
Loc: Iowa
Yes, if I was not using a sub, your correct, my 60's would be receiving the full frequency range. However, since I have a sub in the equation, and watch movies 7.1 and music, setting all speakers to small, with an 80hz crossover has given me the best overall blend for both situations. Keep in mine, "small" has nothing to do with the size of the speaker. It is related to the ability of each speaker to play freq's below the crossover setting. Yes, the 60's can go lower than 80hz, but even at 80hz, the 60's still pump out potent bass. I have tried "Large" and LFE+Main on the receiver, but think it sounds better this way. The sub is playing all the non-directional effects as it should.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
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#141401 - 06/12/06 01:39 AM Re: My 2nd attempt at graphing my room response? [Re: SirQuack]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8132
Loc: Tacoma
Randy, Dude, Buddy, Pal...

Unless you really enjoy measuring SPL and building graphs more than you enjoy listening to music and watching movies, I'd say you're barking up the wrong tree
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bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#141402 - 06/12/06 09:28 AM Re: My 2nd attempt at graphing my room response? [Re: tomtuttle]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10675
Loc: Central NH
Tom-
You're placating him!

Seriously: Randy, you know that I, possessor of thy room that seriously sucketh, can sympathize. And I have come to believe that at some point, you need to make a decision as to whether or not you want to completely re-do a room with acoustic treatments or just learn to let it go and enjoy your system.

But you other guys need to realize that it truly IS frustrating to have really bad graphs. It's very hard to shake the nagging suspicion that others really ARE enjoying their systems more than you can in your situation.

You guys know I love analogies:

Imagine that you bought this great dream car… let's call it the Porsche M80. And you spend time on all these forums with other Porsche M80 owners describing how they can feel the texture of the road because it handles so well, and when the situation warrants it, they can floor it and just "fly" with the 300 horses under the hood. Only in the county you live in, the weird new county administrator (we'll call him Ohm) has managed to get a new law passed that restricts all cars' horsepower by 30%.

You can still enjoy your Porsche M80 to some degree, but you just know that you're not experiencing it the way others are and that there's something missing.

And the only way to get full use out of it is to make some drastic change….like hunting down and killing the town administrator and setting him up in a sleazy hotel with props that make it look like he was robbed and killed by a hooker on a four day crack binge, but then of course, you have to find a hooker that frequents the motel and kill her too, taking evidence off her to plant in the motel room to connect her with the other murder. Better: The town administrator's car needs to be given to the hooker's pimp with the murder weapon under the back seat to setup a scenario of the pimp killing them both over a payment dispute. Or…. Was she an informant to the administrator? Oh yeah. Don't forget to steal her cell phone the day before and make two calls to the county administrator's office to get him to the motel. That will set up the link between them.

See how hard it is to get good sound in a room that sucks?
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#141403 - 06/12/06 09:43 AM Re: My 2nd attempt at graphing my room response? [Re: MarkSJohnson]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13311
Loc: Iowa
Thanks Mark and Tom,

I totally agree with your comments. This stuff can drive you nuts. Funny thing, the sound is great. Imaging is unbelievable. It can't get any better, can it? I'm must weird like that, I like to play with settings and try to get the best possible results.

I used to drive my friends nuts when I was a kid playing Intellivision. I always adjusted the color, contrast, brightness, sharpness, etc. on the tv trying to get the best picture.

Anyway, last night I moved the sub back to the left corner. This time I placed it to the left side of my left m60, instead of how it is above in the picture. I move the m60's as close as possible without blocking the 10ft wide screen. Re-Calibrated of course:) Things are great right now.

One of my favorite LFE movie scenes is during Finding Nemo when they are inside the whale and the whale is gowwwwwwling, telling them to let go, it will be alright.

Man oh Man, when that EP500 kicked in, the hairs on my leg stood up, the whole room felt like it was lifting off the foundation.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#141404 - 06/12/06 11:44 AM Re: My 2nd attempt at graphing my room response? [Re: MarkSJohnson]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8132
Loc: Tacoma
Mark, you're scaring me.
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#141405 - 06/12/06 01:39 PM Re: My 2nd attempt at graphing my room response? [Re: tomtuttle]
sidvicious02 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 973
Loc: Brandon, Manitoba
Quote:

Mark, you're scaring me.



Glad to see I wasn't the only one frightened by Mark's useful, though extremely violent, analogies. Now where is Doc when you need him....
_________________________
"Chickens don't clap."

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#141406 - 06/12/06 03:27 PM Re: My 2nd attempt at graphing my room response? [Re: sidvicious02]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10675
Loc: Central NH
Quote:

Now where is Doc when you need him....





Well, he's certainly not tied up in my root celler, if that's what you're thinking!












































or.....







is he?
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#141407 - 06/30/06 11:40 PM Re: My 2nd attempt at graphing my room response? [Re: MarkSJohnson]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13311
Loc: Iowa
John, here is the post for the PM you sent me.

Any advice would be appreciated..Randy
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#141408 - 07/01/06 12:32 AM Re: My 2nd attempt at graphing my room response? [Re: SirQuack]
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5256
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
OK, let's see...

I took the two graphs and overlaid them in Paint, sliding the second one up several dB so the average levels matched. I haven't figured out a good way to change the dot colour in one graph so I can tell the curves apart more easily, but at least this gives an idea of what behavior is common and what is influenced by moving things around.

JohnK is spot on as usual about the peaks -- 30 feet gives you peaks around 19, 38, 57, 76, 95 and so on -- and the peaks are almost unchanged between the graphs, which makes sense. The 38 hz peak is almost 10 dB high, which might be noticeable -- having the EP500 ~7 feet from a wall might take that down a bit.

You have major suckout around 150 Hz, which might be an artifact of having the fronts of the M60s 2 feet from the back wall. You should be able to move that dip down by pulling the speakers further from the wall, but there aren't any convenient peaks to knock out that way. You could probably pull the 60s out another 2 feet and knock down the 75-80 Hz bump a bit if you had room.

It's possible that some absorbent material behind the 60s could help if you had something which worked at those frequencies (I'll look around). Maybe Mark's fat-ass dog.

There is also a dip around 250 Hz, which I'm guessing is the crossover frequency between woofs and mid on the 60s. I vaguely remember Ian or Alan telling us that moving the microphone up or down an inch in the anechoic chamber has a huge effect on the response around crossover frequencies, ie don't worry about it because it all averages out courtesy of room reflections.

One of the graphs steps up a few dB below 120 Hz, while the other steps up more like 80 or 90 Hz. I'm hoping the graph with the speakers set to large is the one which steps up at 120 [EDIT, I just confirmed that]. If so, then (a) your sub is set a few dB hotter than the mains, and (b) setting the speakers to "large" gives you a range of frequencies where both EP500 and M60s are active, so you get an extra few dB between 80 (where the 60s step down a couple of dB) and 120 (presumably where the EP500 crossover has pretty much zeroed the output).

Bottom line is that both are pretty good graphs. If you had a long sub cable, I would try the EP500 midway between the two positions you tried, ie 7 feet from the side wall, and see if that knocks down the 38 and 76 Hz peaks.

You could take the EP500 down a few dB to get rid of the step up at 80/120 Hz, but what the heck, it's a big boy and can probably handle the extra few dB just fine. [EDIT - I notice you measured the same SPL for sub as for the other speakers, so I'm guessing your meter may be reading a few dB low in the bass. The Radio Shack meter correction table on the SVS site says 2-3 dB through the upper subwoofer range, and 5-7 dB in the 20 to 30 Hz range, so you probably are set a few dB hot even though your graph says you are not. I wouldn't bother taking your subwoofer level down except as an experiment.

Again, this is a nice graph. Enjoy !

It's too bad you can't donate a couple of feet in one direction to Mark, maybe taking your room down to 27x30 or so. That would make your peaks a bit wider and lower, and would do the same for Mark's room -- right now he sorta has a cube full of Axioms ;(


Edited by bridgman (07/01/06 12:41 AM)

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#141409 - 07/01/06 12:55 AM Re: My 2nd attempt at graphing my room response? [Re: bridgman]
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5256
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
I forgot to ask -- how wide is the "slightly narrower section" where the screen and front speakers are located ?

Looks like run-of-the-mill foam is not going to be effective in the 150 Hz range -- you need something more like a RealTrap (membrane trap) to work in the lower range. Peversely enough, the RealTraps SoffitTrap has an absorbtion peak right where you need it, but it's exactly the wrong shape to stick behind the M60s. Personally I would just temporarily pull the speakers out a foot, run a quick graph to satisfy myself that the 150 Hz suckout moved to the left, and then forget about it and watch some movies

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