Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Tell me about... screens

So... while still upbeat from saving $500 by not having to a brush-cutter, in a moment of weakness I ordered a Sanyo Z4 projector. So much for saving money. "What the heck", I thought, "I can project on the wall for now".

Next morning I went upstairs and observed that the wall was dark green. Not so good for the fleshtones.

I always imagined my HT would have rows of custom bookcases with an electric screen that lowered in front of them when I wanted to play movies. No problem, there are lots of electric, tensioned, high gain, high quality screens on the market, many with automatic masking systems. They cost about 50x what I was hoping to spend

Seems like I need to make some choices. What is the current thinking about screen "colour" (white / grey) vs. ambient light level. This is rarely going to be a really dark room, since the HT system is set up in a loft with big windows where the sunset shines in, and opens to the living room. On the other hand there isn't room for a huge picture, so something like 92" would be the largest and I may end up going a bit smaller.

Does that mean I should have a white screen or a grey screen ? What kind of gain should I be thinking about ?

Most importantly, since I don't actually HAVE those bookcases yet and I'm really looking for quick, cheap and easy, what about thoughts on (for example) a cheap Da-Lite pulldown (Model B) vs. a *simple* DIY screen. I was thinking about either painting some tileboard or seeing if the local Home Depot up here has those plastic panels which seem to work pretty well.

If I go with the Da-Lite I can save a few bucks by ordering it before the projector ships. Main concern with that route is that if I go with a high gain screen then the waves are more likely to show, but if I go with a low gain screen I'm probably not getting much advantage over a DIY approach.

Thanks !

Just two things.

1) Congrats on the Z4. I love my Z3 and Sirquack loves his Z2.

2) Hit the Carada web site and get some free screen material samples and give them a try. I went with their "Brilliant White" screen which has, I believe, a 1.6 gain. This was for a room with a LOT of windows as well. Others said to get the gray screen to increase the black levels, but I liked the way the 1.6 gain looked in that room. Now, I just moved it all to the new theater tonight with NO windows, dark walls and ceiling. Dark carpet, etc. The picture really "pops" which is cool, but now I am going to have to look closer at the samples again and see if I will need to change my screen for something more on the gray scale. Maybe not though. It is late, and I just got it hooked up. I need to recalibrate and go from there.

good luck.

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So... while still upbeat from saving $500 by not having to a brush-cutter, in a moment of weakness I ordered a Sanyo Z4 projector. So much for saving money. "What the heck", I thought, "I can project on the wall for now".

Next morning I went upstairs and observed that the wall was dark green. Not so good for the fleshtones.

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These posts get more humourous every day.
Bridgman, are you sure senility isn't setting in living way out in the sticks?


I hope more people weigh in on their ideas about screens. I'm closing in on potentially buying a FP (looking at the Panny PE900 or maybe a DLP based unit) and i want to go with a good quality, motorized screen, possibly under $1500 Cdn for a budget.
I have not yet begun my own search for info, so general opinions are a place to start.

So when can I move in?

Hey John,

Now I'm jealous as hell that you have a Z4, even though my Z2 still rocks.

For me, I'm all about DIY. You can achieve as good results from DIY over spending tons of money on a manufactured screen, but that is just me.

The Z4 has great contrast ratings, so a contrast enhancing screen is not needed. Also, the Z4 has respectable ratings in the lumens category, so I would be carefull on getting something with to much gain. I use a matte white PVC material, which is a 1.0 or slightly higher gain, and it works great for my Z2, even in economy lamp mode.

A screen that is a high contrast screen can sacrifice color vibrance, and a screen with high gain designed to give you more "pop" to the image, will not be as good in the black's category.

Even though my HT area is pretty much light controlled, there are still times that I have the blinds open during the day and my kid plays games with no problems. We also have the lights on in the other areas of the room many times to visit or play pool, and still watch HD material on the big screen. Again, this is using economy lamp mode and a 1.0 gain screen.

I guess if it was me, and I had the Z4, I would not worry to much about getting some fancy screen. Heck, just painting your wall with UPW (ultra pure white) flat paint will look awesome, which also has a gain of 1.0.

Other DIY alternatives which I highly recommend are go to Menards (or possibly Home Depot). In the aisle that has the paneling standing up, look for the 4ft x 8ft sheets of Parkland Durotherm-Lite Panels. These are used by many for a "just hang and enjoy" type screen. They are a PVC material that is light weigt, durable, washable, and work great for a screen. They are 5/16" thick and have a honey comb construction, similar to corrugated cardboard boxes.

Anyway, one side is smooth white with no texture, that is the side you would use. You would have to trim the material to get your 16:9 screensize, unless your talking about going the 2.35 screen route like me, which would require an anamorphic lens(thats another story).

For my current screen, I built a wood frame out of quality 1" x 3" oak boards from Menards. I then used corner bracing on all corners and the middle support piece. Next, I purchased some Professional Theater Screen material from Dazian Fabrics, they have been manufacturing theater screen material and curtains for ever. I stretched the material around the screen and attached with industrial velcro on the back side. Screen size is 51" x 120" and all done for about $100. I'll guarantee you, you won't see much difference if any compared to these $500-$1500 manufactured screens.

Some people use "BlackOut" cloth stretched around a screen. This is a product used in drapery lining to "BlackOut" the sun totally. The rubbery side works very well for a screen.

A cheep one coat paint solution as an alternative to UPW is Behr "Silverscreen". There is a long thread over on AVS in the DIY screen section with details.

Here is another method for about $100 described on projector central. However, not sure about using paper, but they say it works. Whatever you do, you want to eliminate as much light passing throught the material as possible.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/diy_screen.htm

If you really want to get crazy, you could build a "Light Fusion" screen. This involves using a mirror, or plexi mirror, and then painting a transparent paint formula over the top. Gives you a plasma like result, but does require a lot of patience and testing and practice to get it right.

Now I need to get back to work...

bridgman,

Nickbuol's advice is good. If there's ambient light (never really dark), then a screen with some gain delivers lots of pop and contrast, but it does so at the expense of black levels and shadow detail.

Testing some samples is a great idea. We did some up at Axiom's listening room and over at Ian's place. You can usually find a material that you'll prefer--a compromise between contrast and "pop" with acceptable black levels and some shadow detail. Use a DVD image that you can freeze that has a wide range of brightness to shadow to black and have someone (maybe you could teach those cute dogs of yours.. .) hold each material in part of the image that has bright and dark areas. Pick the one you prefer. In our tests, even the screen material (cloth vs. vinyl) made differences.

Regards,

Thanks, everyone. I'm always amazed how much great information you guys can offer.

Free samples of screen material never occurred to me. Bonus !

I don't think senility is the issue -- that would imply different behavior with advancing age. Living out in the middle of nowhere I just have time to write down a bit more than before

Lots of room for move-in's, but (a) it's kinda a long way from civilization and (b) telecommuting at 19.2 kbps is not a happy thing. Normally I do better (a rip-roaring 26 kbps) but there is a loud buzzing noise on all the phone lines in the neighborhood (all 4 of them) which hurts the modem connection. Phone company should be here on Wednesday to say they can't do anything about it ;(

Sounds like one of those plastic panels with a couple of coats of Silverscreen on the back would be perfect -- I could flip it around and see what worked best. Will check today and see if HD carries them in Canada. Up here Menard is a kind of duck, not a store.

A matte white seems like the best fit for a bright room, although I'm wondering about light splash off the white ceiling/walls. Either some kind of frame or maybe this is a good excuse to treat those first reflection points with some nice dark foam.

Randy, I would have ordered a Z2 but all they had in stock were Z4s

Anyways, thanks everyone !!

EDIT -- Just saw Alan's post. Sounds like it would be worth testing more than two DIY finishes. Thanks, Alan !

Randy, I hadn't realized you could buy actual screen material at a decent price -- I didn't recognize the brand you mentioned but I figured they made sportswear or something

chess, I can enthusiastically recommend the Panny AE900, as I just got mine fired up this week for the first time (at long last). Everything I read on projector central and those other web sites is true - there's a nice film-like quality to the picture. I'm viewing an 88" screen from distances of 8-12 feet, with no pixellation or screen-door effect. Nada. Watched the Red Sox on ESPN2HD and the colors were awesome. I know there are a lot of other Panny owners here as well.

Hopefully more info and pics to come if I can stop enjoying my new HT long enough to post ...

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread...

I plan to use a sheet of ¾” MDF and paint a coat of UPW with a top coat of the RMAX-Mud mix that’s been touted over at AVS. I’ll let you know how it works in a couple weeks. I’m quite intrigued with this “mirror” concept, but have opted to stick with MDF so that I can build the screen to 2.35 dimensions in excess of the standard 96” width of sheet goods fairly easily (but join the MDF with glue and biscuits).

Oh John, I checked with my General Forman today on those brush cutters. He told me that I’ve been buying them Stihl FS 550’s. His words are “kicks ass!!!” “bad ass!!”. For home / personal use, he recommended the FS 350. The 550 is much more powerful and he really likes them as he can modify them to accept a larger blade and they don’t slow down. They use them for some pretty intense Alder cutting (larger than 3”). http://www.stihlusa.com/trimmers/FS550.html

Hey John,

Parkland also makes Plastex panels that are much thinner and need to be glued to a substrate to stay flat. You can also buy directly from Parkland.

Here is the Dazian stuff I bought, I actually used their Ebay store, but you can buy direct also...


http://dazian.com/cgi-bin/projection_screens.pl

Also, if you can create a border incorporated with your screen in black velvet, that will absorb light spill. Felt can be used also. For me, I just painted my back wall flat black.

Star Wars II on a 10ft wide 2.35 cinemascope screen.

Dang it. This is EXACTLY the kind of HT scope-creep that destroys budgets, marriages, productivity, etc.

Cool.

JP, I thought that was all going to be up and running by March Madness

Cool! The Z4 is a great projector! I purchased my screen fabric at the same place as Randy and I'm very satisfied with the quality.
Going with a setup like Randy's is the way to go!! I would if the one who must be obeyed let me.

Anyway, I hope you'll enjoy your Z4.

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there's a nice film-like quality to the picture

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I've read this about the AE series. What exactly does 'film-like' imply? Softer edges rather than sharpness? Softer rather than vibrant colours?
Or that grainy speckle dust look like when one is at the movie theatre?

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I'm viewing an 88" screen from distances of 8-12 feet

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Well this will just about define my setup exactly as well. Something in the 80-95" range (diagonal correct?) at a 10' viewing distance.
Did you have pics of your setup?

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Watched the Red Sox on ESPN2HD and the colors were awesome.

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How is the HD viewing? As sharp as on other tv types?
Doesn't that Panny only do 720p?

Our basement room is completely light controlled, no windows and french doors with a heavy curtain (down at the present time). As such, i'm leaning away from an overly white screen, just a shade into the grey i guess, but looking at samples certainly would be helpful.

Thanks again everyone.

After reading about a million more threads, I guess the pattern I am seeing is that the ideal level of "greyness" seems to primarily be a function of the projector's ability provide a high contrast image, while the ideal level of "gain" seems to be more a function of the ambient light levels in the room and the projector's ability to provide brightness on your chosen screen size.

EDIT -- I just noticed that Alan said the same thing 10 posts earlier, but with fewer words and more clarity. D'oh !!

It seems to me that I have an ideal situation w.r.t. projector brightness/contrast vs. screen size, but a less than ideal situation w.r.t. ambient light.

Intuitively it seems that a greyer screen should be better at controlling ambient light, but it doesn't seem to work that way -- presumably because the greyer screens also have lower gain ?

Anyways, since I clearly (a) need a starting point, and (b) either need to cover up a lot of green or cover up some masonite or whatever (the parkland products don't seem to be available at HT but I will call them and see who else up here carries them) Randy's suggestion of starting with a pure white is seeming like a pretty good idea.

Emerging consensus on the boards seems to be that pure silverscreen is a bit darker than ideal for most rooms, but punching up the gain of the SS with some "mixings" (a white pearl plus clear poly) seems to make a pretty good finish without requiring any particular painting skill.

Past that, it seems like doing a bunch of testing seems to be the only way to get further improvement.

I still have some doubts that what I wrote at the front of this post (greyness optimizes for projector contrast, gain optimizes for room & projector brightness) is really that simple, but that's the best I've been able to figure out so far.

I am really not good at "which one do you prefer ?" tests -- I tend to pick and choose myself into a corner and end up with a strong preference for something that looks awful, even to me

EDIT -- Randy, when I went to the Dazian site and looked at their "white" projector cloth it seemed to actually be a light grey PVC. Is that what you have ?

For whatever reason the picture on their website does look grayish. I can tell you my stuff is very white. They also sell on their ebay store "Dazian Fabrics".

If you type the following words in the search field:
matte white cinema screen

you will find the stuff I bought on ebay, it comes in various sizes.

Here is an example

http://cgi.ebay.com/Matte-White-Cinema-P...1QQcmdZViewItem

John, I notice no one has yet taken interest in your lack of bookcases. I guess HD projectors are lots more interesting... I have found excellent prices and quality for bookcases at IKEA. Don't know if there is one in your neck of the woods. Being of Scandinavian descent, I love their stuff...

Me too!

The bookcases will definitely be Ikea, and probably the Billy model. I have a couple disassembled in the garage but I haven't been able to find them yet. That, in itself, is alarming.

Mark, the colour between your speakers and bookcases seems very well matched. I assume those are Mansfield Beech speakers; what model & finish are the bookcases ?

From Mark's previous post I believe those are also beech. I've got the same colored speakers and Ikea shelves. Not perfect, but a close match. Very nice clean look.

Sean nailed it!

Of course, the day after I purchased my projector another place in Canada (Complete-IT) offered the same projector at the same price... but with a free spare bulb.

Oh well, interesting times...

You could always call the place you purchased it from and mention this, who knows, they may say we will match the deal. At most stores they will match deals within certain time periods....I still want your Z4, ha ha.

In a triumph of irony, it turns out that the place I bought from had the same deal until about a week ago, when they ran out of spare bulbs, and this other place offered the same deal in response. Apparently the other place hasn't run out of spare bulbs yet.

I smell a high margin on bulbs.

I think this was something to do with a Sanyo factory offer, believe I saw something like that advertised on projectorcentral.

How much are bulbs running in those things, anyway?

They are being advertised as "$426 CDN value, free with projector" so I assume that is list and actual pricing would be lower. I wasn't able to find any actual prices in a brief search before I had to leave the house.

Looks like average price is about $330 US, or a bit under $400 CDN.

Almost forgot to mention, I had another chance to see a Vutec SilverStar screen last night. It's a light silver, slightly shiny paper finish (pretty easy to damage apparently) but EXTREMELY bright and with a very wide viewing area. We were walking around looking for evidence of hotspotting and didn't find a thing. For a minute I was wondering if this might have actually been something other than a silverstar, but (a) most of the other reviews report the same results and (b) none of the other vutec screens are silver.

The high gain (claimed 6.0, actual seems to be ~2.7) makes the picture very clear even in high ambient light conditions. There seems to be a lot of support for using high gain as a solution to ambient light in the room, rather than a darker grey screen.

There is some interesting reading at :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=262466

Right now I have to admit my thinking is either to look for a good price on a SilverStar or to go with the "Behr Silverscreen plus some mixings to pump up the gain a bit" DIY approach. They certainly wouldn't be the same, of course -- even with the mixings a silverscreen paint job seems to be a bit under 1.0 gain, while the silverscreen seems to be around 3.0.

Spending more on the screen than the projector seems somehow wrong, even if I did spend more money on speakers than electronics. If I could have made my own speakers for $100 with one trip to Home Depot I probably would have given it a try

This is the current screen I use and it is pretty close enough to the quality of the Dalite I used to have. Their prices are 1/4 of Dalites.

http://www.audioholics.com/ces/CESmisc/EliteScreensezCinema.php


Manual pull downs $76.99 CDN
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1016716&CatId=0

Electric motorized $317 CDN
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1384890&CatId=0

There is a Tigerdirect store in Markhan which I picked up my screen.

If your ever in Toronto drop me a line and you can check out the screen.
http://www.quadloft.com/concerti/mini-DSC_1207.htm

Check their site for screen gain.
http://www.elitescreens.com/

I tried DIY which yes is self fulfilling did not warrant the lots and lots of time I spent to get it to a level thats commercial. Ask the other folks who did DIY.

I think Nickbuol mantioned Carada, I would also check them out John if you take the mfg route. Great prices and very well constructed screens with black velvet borders.

Ahh, now we're talking

A general purpose $76 matte white screen, very slightly >1 gain, available a two minute drive from work, sounds like just what I need right now. There are just too many questions I need to answer about my own HT plans before getting anything more specialized... and I *really* don't feel like messing with painting anything right now.

Thanks !!

I learned something else interesting last night -- when you look at high gain screens, there are different types of reflective mechanisms available and so you need to figure out how & where your projector is going to be mounted before you can get the optimal screen.

There are "retro-reflective" screens where the light reflects back to the light source, eg. if you have a table top projector the light will be reflected back down towards the viewers. If you have a ceiling mount projector the brightest light will be reflected back up towards the ceiling. Many of the traditional high gain screens (eg. Da-Lite High Power) apparently operate this way.

The other kind is called "angular reflective", or "shiny" for us normal people. It works the way you would expect -- if the projector is mounted high then the brighest reflective light comes down towards the viewers, but if you have a table-top mount then the brightest reflected light is above the normal viewing position. Most of the silver screens (eg. the Vutec SilverStar) are like this.

I was going to start table top then eventually go to ceiling mount either when I finish the basement or when I feel like hanging a 6 foot pole down from the ceiling.

Matte screens don't care about this, of course, and I believe with moderate gain screens the viewing angle is wide enough that it only makes a bit of difference. Once you get up into the 2-ish gain or higher though this seems to be something you have to consider.

I still haven't figured out how the SilverStar gives such a wide apparent viewing angle along with high gain. I think the trick is that (a) the viewing angle seems to be a bit wider left-to-right than top-to-bottom, (b) the brightness drops off sufficiently smoothly that a typical viewer doesn't notice, and POSSIBLY (c) I read a number of posts indicating that hotspotting was often made more visible by colour shifts off axis, not just brightness variations, so maybe the SilverStar is better for off-axis colour balance ? Again, point c is just a guess, I hadn't read these posts when I was in front of the SilverStar.

I used to have the portable Dalite with Wide Power material. Material was very fragile and thin. It had a 2.4 gain and hotspotted with bright material. Picture though on this material is bright and vivid like a plasma due to its reflective nature.

The elite screen is more film-like. Not as punchy but more natural looking. The material is rather thick and durable. Screen gain is not an issue. My Optoma is only 800 ansi. I believe yours is much higher. You would most likely need to take your brightness down to give you that large contrast ratio. No issue with light drop at any angle in my 23' long x 18' wide(25' at the back) room. All in all I am happy with my elite. 1 small 2mm mark on corner which cant even be seen in the dark. Electric to boot for under $400 cdn. Seeing my visitors drop their mouth as they see the 100" screen come down automatically...priceless.

Yep, that must look great. All you need is the martial theme from "Thunderbirds" as the screen comes down

I definitely don't need higher gain for image brightness in a dark room (the Sanyo is rated 1000 lumens at full power, 300-ish at best PQ), it's just that the viewing area is wide open on two sides, one of them to sunsets, so sometimes the ambient light level is going to be pretty high.

Then again, I guess most of the movie watching will be in those long cold winters when it gets dark at 4:30 and I get home from work at 7:30

Hmmm... the DIY screens are getting more and more interesting. The latest is a thing called "Black Flame Light Fusion" -- looks like the Light Fusion design tweaked to (a) work better in high ambient light, and (b) work pretty well without a mirror.

The screen shots are alarmingly good. Nice, typical daytime shots of living rooms with windows open, daylight streaming in and lights on... with this blazing projector image in the middle of the wall, from run-of-the-mill projectors running on low power.

Wish I hadn't seen that

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8161338#post8161338

I would not get to excited about screenshots. MMan likes to brag about his screenshots, but you have to understand the camera settings can improve the end result over the actual image.

So... I'm wondering what size and model of screen to get, right ? My new projector was supposed to be delivered yesterday but apparently the truck broke down so they delivered today instead, when I was at work.

No biggie, just drive to the depot and pick it up. Still thinking about what size and model of screen to get. The address of the Purolator depot is "90 Silver Star"

Now you tell me *that* is just a coincidence

On the way home from Purolator I picked up a 2' x 4' piece of masonite painted white on one side, $3.94 at Home Depot. Gives me about a 52" diagonal when watching a 2.35 film.

Everything on the projector is set to "max dim" and of course the picture is still blazing bright. No visible hotspotting but the finish on the masonite is somewhere between eggshell and flat.

A 52" 2.35 image is WAY bigger than a 32" 4:3 CRT, startlingly so. Also brighter and sharper, of course, although when I go up to a 92" screen that will get roughly 3x dimmer.

Hmmm. Projector waiting for me at 90 Silver Star. Hmmm.

There is something very compelling about watching a wide-aspect screen. A 48" x 24" piece of hardboard isn't quite 2.35:1 but it was close enough to see the effect of a 2.35 screen, enough that I might be cutting the 4x8 "that way" (96 x 41) instead of "this way" (85 x 48).

My player (a Pioneer 578) only seems to output up to 480p, not 720p. This is a bit of a disappointment because the Sanyo is reputed to not have a particularly good scaler but is extremely good when fed a 720p signal. Have to read the manual again.

Is there anything new that beats out the Oppo 971, or is that still the way to go for great image quality at decent price ?

Well, congrats on getting the thing fired up! I'm quite envious.

My Panasonic S97S put out a killer 720p or 1080i image with my Z2, that is until I built my HTPC. With the HTPC Nvidia card set to the same resolution as my Z2, using TheaterTek DVD software, the picture is much better than my upconverting DVD player.

John, are you sure your using Low Lamp mode?

Oppo is currently the best upscaling player using HDMI. Check out canuckaudiomart.com locally and someone at the Downsview Toronto area is selling the different Oppo models for decent prices.

Most of the simple screens (eg. Parkland) do not seem to be available in Canada without a real fight. On avsforum the last few days there has been a lot of traffic about a cabinet laminate ("Designer White") from Wilsonart which seems to perform pretty well -- first few comparisons seem to put it a bit ahead of the Parkland plastic sheets and it is available in 5x10 foot sheets for bigger screens.

I hunted around to find Wilsonart dealers in Canada -- the only one who sold sheets (rather than cabinets with the laminate glued on) was Rona Lansing, sort of a local version of Home Depot. Hit two stores; they had never heard of Wilsonart but they sold lots of Formica. I picked up a Matte White formica sheet for about $35 and am about to fire it up now. It is a bit shiny for my liking (less so than melamine-clad MDF though) and hopefully has enough texture that the hotspotting won't be too bad.

<insert pause to set up the laminate and watch a few movies>

After a couple of hours I am pretty happy with this. No visible hotspotting, and no obvious colour push. I don't have any good samples to compare with right now so I am going by memory, but will try to get some comparisons done over the weekend. Definitely less shiny and less hotspotting than the HD painted masonite 2x4 I started with. More gain and much sharper image than the synthetic dropcloth I was using to determine ideal screen size.

At 92" or 106" diagonal it's still not sufficiently bright to run the Z4 in "Pure Cinema" (low lamp, no auto iris) but in Creative Cinema it looks mighty fine. I am really starting to get a hankering for a 2.35 setup with one of those stretchy lenses, although not sure what to do about the fact that all of my 2.35 movies seem to have 1.85 menus.

Randy was right about how good a matte white screen can look. It's quite surprising.

EDIT -- in an earlier post I think I said the upscaling on the Sanyo was not good. My current understanding is that the de-interlacing is not so good but the upscaling (say from 480p to 720p) is fine, so maybe I get to stay with the Pioneer for a while.