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#149014 - 10/09/06 04:42 PM Sub Hookups
JasonB Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 105
Loc: St. Albert, AB
Hey,
I'm just wondering if there are any differences between using a low level LFE connection versus a high level connection to a sub from your receiver? I'm aware that the LFE connection puts your receiver in control of crossover, while the high level connection allows your sub to control that. Is one of these prefered over the other to achieve higher quality sound, or is it simply presonal preference?

Thanks
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#149015 - 10/09/06 05:15 PM Re: Sub Hookups [Re: JasonB]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4415
Loc: Marion, IA
What receiver are you talking about? My Pioneer Elite (as many others I would suspect) have the sub-out port(s) on the back, and internally to the receiver, you can set the crossover to whatever you want, including full range. Not that you would want to. The standard seems to be 80Hz, but I guess you could play around with it, or if you think that the sub has a better crossover or something.

If the equipment is doing its job, then it shouldn't matter which part handles the crossover. I guess if I was the type of person that liked to mess around with the crossover on a regular basis, I would set it higher on the receiver, and then let the sub handle the crossover. That is because in order to change it on the receiver, I have to go through a couple of menu screens, but on the sub itself, I just turn an adjustment knob a little bit.

That is the only reason that I can think of, but I really don't mess with it once it is set. Others may have different opinions.
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#149016 - 10/09/06 06:14 PM Re: Sub Hookups [Re: nickbuol]
JasonB Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 105
Loc: St. Albert, AB
I'm not referring to a specific receiver, just in general. If I understand correctly, there are two ways to get a signal to the sub:

Option 1: You can run your front channels through your sub, which then extracts the low frequencies according to the crossover you set on the sub. This means you don't use the preout on the receiver and the sub controls the crossover.

Option 2: Use the sub preout on the receiver and run the front channels directly to the front speakers. This way the sub gets a dedicated channel from the receiver and the receiver now controls what frequency range is sent to the sub and front speakers.

The reason I'm asking is because my cable run is fairly long to the sub (~20-30 ft since the cables will go up to the ceiling, across to just above the sub, then down to the floor where the sub is). Now if I use Option 1, I only need two wires for the front channels to go to the sub, and since the fronts are on either side of the sub, not much extra cable is needed to carry the signal from the sub to the fronts. If I go with option 2, I need to have the 2 wires for the front channels as well as a dedicated LFE cable for the sub going the same distance. So it's a little extra cost to cable it for option 2, but if the sound quality is increased, I will go this route.

Does that make sense? The question is simply "Which sounds better, Option 1 or 2?"
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____________________________ M22 VP100 QS8 EP500 Yamaha HTR-5960

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#149017 - 10/09/06 06:25 PM Re: Sub Hookups [Re: JasonB]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17739
Loc: NoVA
Unless you're talking about stereo only listening, using option 2 is the only way to go. If you don't you don't get the dedicated LFE channel, or anything from any other channels that is being directed to the sub by the crossover in the receiver. (Same deal with using the sub's crossover instead of the receiver).

Also, on my sub (in my opinion), I found the line level inputs performed better.

Frankly, I'd rather run a single cable to the sub than (min) 4 separate wires to the sub, and then 2 wires to the fronts.
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#149018 - 10/09/06 07:07 PM Re: Sub Hookups [Re: Ken.C]
JasonB Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 105
Loc: St. Albert, AB
Quote:

Unless you're talking about stereo only listening, using option 2 is the only way to go. If you don't you don't get the dedicated LFE channel, or anything from any other channels that is being directed to the sub by the crossover in the receiver.




What if I set the receiver so that there is no sub and put the front channels as large, shouldn't that redirect the bass to the front speakers which could then be extracted by the sub?

I'm just looking at all my options. I appreciate the opinions and will most likely order a sub coax cable since you say it sounds better.
_________________________
____________________________ M22 VP100 QS8 EP500 Yamaha HTR-5960

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#149019 - 10/09/06 07:08 PM Re: Sub Hookups [Re: JasonB]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17739
Loc: NoVA
Well, yeah, I guess... but... still seems a lot more complicated than it's worth.
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#149020 - 10/09/06 08:24 PM Re: Sub Hookups [Re: JasonB]
bridgman Online   content
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5279
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
>>What if I set the receiver so that there is no sub and put the front channels as large, shouldn't that redirect the bass to the front speakers which could then be extracted by the sub?

You would expect this, but not all receivers work this way. Yamahas definitely do, HKs seem not to, and I think the rest are split about 50/50.

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#149021 - 10/09/06 11:14 PM Re: Sub Hookups [Re: JasonB]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10359
Jason, your understanding may not be entirely correct. When a coaxial cable is used from the sub output on the receiver, the receiver can handle both the high frequency rolloff of the sub and also the low frequency rolloff of the speakers quite accurately. Typically the sub is rolled off at 24dB/octave above the selected frequency(e.g. 80Hz)and the speakers are rolled off at 12dB/octave below that same frequency(with an accuracy of about 1-2Hz). When a high level connection is made with speaker wire the receiver does no bass management. The internal crossover on the sub only rolls off the sub, it doesn't roll off the speakers(even if the speakers are connected through the sub) as the receiver bass management does. Also, the markings on the sub's internal crossover control are typically far less accurate than the setting on the receiver. Some subs do have a separate fixed filter around 100Hz on their speaker out connections, but otherwise the speakers would run full-range and not be relieved of some of the low bass burden.

In short, for more accurate bass management which will affect both the speakers and sub use the line level coaxial cable connection and set the speakers small.
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#149022 - 10/10/06 12:10 AM Re: Sub Hookups [Re: JohnK]
JasonB Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 105
Loc: St. Albert, AB
Thanks for the repies. I appreciate the detailed explaination John, that is exactly what I was looking for. I will be ordering the extra coax cable for sure. The receiver that I will be using, which I just picked up today for $555 CDN, is the Yamaha HTR5960. Sounds like a good one so I'll see how it works when my Axioms get here in about 4 weeks, hopefully less . I will be making my order for them tomorrow. Does anyone know any secrets for making 4 weeks go by faster?
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____________________________ M22 VP100 QS8 EP500 Yamaha HTR-5960

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#149023 - 10/10/06 08:40 AM Re: Sub Hookups [Re: JasonB]
bridgman Online   content
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5279
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
See the "cocktails" thread. That seems to help.

We can tell you that "looking out the front window" does *not* help.

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#149024 - 10/16/06 11:51 PM Re: Sub Hookups [Re: bridgman]
JasonB Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 105
Loc: St. Albert, AB
Okay, so I've decided to go with the low Level hookup for sure. Now I remember hearing somewhere that you need to buy a splitter so that you can input the signal to both the L and R inputs on the back of the sub for some reason or another... I can't remember what it was though. Is this true or did I just read it wrong? I can't remember where I read it otherwise I'd go have another look to be sure.
_________________________
____________________________ M22 VP100 QS8 EP500 Yamaha HTR-5960

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#149025 - 10/17/06 12:22 AM Re: Sub Hookups [Re: JasonB]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10359
Jason, the EP350 has a single line-level input to receive the output from the sub out on the receiver, so there's no need to consider the situation where a sub has both L and R inputs. One wire out, one wire in.

When a sub does have L and R inputs, either one can be used(they join inside)with a single wire. Both can be fed with a Y arrangement so that the two voltages make it easier for the sub amp to turn on(this is probably what you read), but it isn't essential since most receivers have plenty of voltage output even when only one sub input is fed.
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#149026 - 10/17/06 01:51 AM Re: Sub Hookups [Re: JohnK]
JasonB Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 105
Loc: St. Albert, AB
Thanks John, that sounds exactly like what I read. I thought the EP350 had two low level inputs from a pic I saw on the net. Have a look for yourself, I don't remember where I got this pic, but it looks like it's an EP350 and there's an L and R input... maybe it's an older model and they decided to axe the extra input. I will take your word on the single input over the random picture I found though :P.


_________________________
____________________________ M22 VP100 QS8 EP500 Yamaha HTR-5960

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#149027 - 10/17/06 09:32 AM Re: Sub Hookups [Re: JasonB]
FordPrefect Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/05/02
Posts: 1334
Loc: Ancaster, Ontario
You are correct Jason, the older EP350 does have the two inputs. At least mine does.

My back plate is different from the one you posted, it also has an "audio/video" equalization switch. In fact it may be older than yours (Serial Number EP3500115) . Perhaps an Axiom Historian can list the history of the 350.


Edited by FordPrefect (10/17/06 09:51 AM)

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#149028 - 10/17/06 10:44 AM Re: Sub Hookups [Re: FordPrefect]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13318
Loc: Iowa
My 350 from about a year ago, before I sold it for a 500, also had left/right inputs. I was told that I only needed to use one of them, however, I did buy a "Y" cable from Radio Shack which allowed me to go from one to two inputs...not sure it made any difference though.
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#149029 - 10/17/06 10:48 PM Re: Sub Hookups [Re: SirQuack]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10359
Yes, but since Jason is getting the new EP350v2, with among other things a single line-level input , the reply was framed to reflect that.
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