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#149507 - 10/16/06 09:23 PM M80s for HT and Music
Riker Offline
devotee

Registered: 10/16/06
Posts: 375
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario
Hello everyone,

Just registered a few minutes ago. The main reason for doing so was to engage in discussions with some actual users of Axiom products and services, not just base my opinions on reviews and resellers. I figured the best persons to ask are those with the products in their homes.

I have a decent HT system now that I also use for 2 channel stereo listening. My system does a good job at movies but I find my main speakers lacking in bass output in stereo mode. I know that my room is to blame for some the perceived bass output or lack thereof, I am currently trying to address that. I did manage to get more out of my speakers by spending many hours, and a few beers :-), positioning them around my listening area. But I still feel there is some bottom end lacking to round out the overall sound. Of course, when I engage the subwoofer I get plenty of bass and it does sound good, but it is not as natural and I would like to own speakers that can stand on their own for music and still perform well in HT mode.

My current system is as follows:

Anthem AVM20 processor
Anthem MCA20 2 channel amplifer feeding mains
Adcom GFA7400 5 channel amplifier
Cambridge Audio Azur 540D DVD player
Rega Planar 3 TT, Rega Super Elyse on upgraded RB300 tonearm
Energy Veritas 2.3s for mains (bi-wired)
Energy Veritas 2.0c centre
Energy Pro.5s surround
Energy ES-10 Subwoofer
Kimber Kable for fronts / center
Monster HP XP for the rest

By all accounts, the Veritas 2.3s are supposed to have more than decent bass output but I just can't hear it. I have read review after reviews stating so, Energy assure me they have very good bass output etc..The dual 6.5inch drivers don't seem to be up to the task. I have addressed some room issues with absorbtion etc.. I have moved the speakers around for hours and ended up with "more" bass but just not what I am looking for.

They are extremely good with highs and mids and I would not want to lose that aspect, they excell in that area, but the overall sound is thin as opposed to full. Some people describe the sound as tight, fast, accurate and yes I agree that they are, but at the end of the day, the bass is still not there.
Love the centre channel, not happy about the mains. Looking for a replacement.

Really wondering how the M80s fair in comparison, they also have dual 6.5in drivers which makes me a bit leary about their bass performance. Like I said, everything I have read about my 2.3s says they have great bass, maybe in their listening room but not in my basement they don't.

I have also auditionned the Klipsch REF82, which sounded pretty good, except for the mid range, that was a bit lacking, but the bass was decent. The 82s are not even in the same timezone as the REF83s, which I have not heard yet but would really like to. They have 3 X 8inch drivers plus tweater. But the REF83s are also $3,500, the same price I paid for my Veritas 2.3s.

I look forward to any comments, opinions, ideas etc..

Thank you all,

Stephane

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#149508 - 10/16/06 09:54 PM Re: M80s for HT and Music [Re: Riker]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

Wow Stephane it sure does look like you already have a first class system. There seems to be a few differences in the specs of the Energy and Axiom M80s but not a night and day difference. I suppose you could try them in the 30 day return period and see for yourself if you like them better. Have you looked in the audition thread to see if there would be someone in your area so you could take a listen ?

If you are looking for a better foundation for your bass maybe a look at the EP 500 and EP 600 could fit the bill for you.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#149509 - 10/16/06 10:26 PM Re: M80s for HT and Music [Re: Wid]
Riker Offline
devotee

Registered: 10/16/06
Posts: 375
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario
Thank you WID, I appreciate your response and I will look into the audition link to see if anyone in my areas has M80s I can listen to. I think that is such a great idea, to have owners opening their homes to other audio enthousiast and listen to their equipment to help them make an informed decision, what a novel idea. For sure that EP600 sub is impressive and I could find a nice home for one of those, but my sub is not so much the problem as it really keeps pace during movies. A while back I had the dragon scene in Lord of the Rings playing full blast and that is the only time I actually got "concerned" that I would blow my sub, but it held in there for the scene. The one thing I am really curious, other than overall sound, is the bass performance of the M80s. I must admit I am a bit of a "bass monger" but not to expense of anything else in the frequency range. I like to feel everything from the punch in the gut of rock and metal (Queensryche, AC/DC,Rush,Fear factory,Pantera,Opeth) to the smoothness of low-fi / lounge (Morcheeba, Enigma, SupperClub)to vocals (Enya, Sade,HCjnr), all the way to classical (Mozart,Bethoven etc.)

I have always liked a "big, full and rich" sound and I don't feel that I am getting that sound now.

When I purchased the Veritas, I did audition them, for about 5 minutes in the show room and I was pressured into buying them on the spot. I got a really good deal from a financial point of view, but not so good from a sound perspective. That experience did teach me one thing, NEVER buy speakers under pressure, take all the time you need to make SURE you are happy with what you are hearing.

Thanks again,

Cheers,

Stephane

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#149510 - 10/16/06 10:39 PM Re: M80s for HT and Music [Re: Wid]
Riker Offline
devotee

Registered: 10/16/06
Posts: 375
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario
Sorry Rick, I put in WID in my response because I did not realize your name was at the bottom until I had posted my message. Did'nt mean to sound impersonal, forum newbie mistake :-(

Thanks again Rick for the reply,

Stephane

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#149511 - 10/16/06 10:43 PM Re: M80s for HT and Music [Re: Riker]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10363
Stephane, welcome. Of course your setup is far more than just "decent" and would appear to be greatly pleasing, including the bass. Please don't be offended by this suggestion(it's happened here on at least two occasions), but are you absolutely certain that the woofers on the 2.3s are actually operating? You mention biwiring, which raises a possibility(slim)that the woofers haven't been wired properly. Wire the woofer terminals alone to check this if it isn't clear at this point.

The point about the result with the sub not being as "natural" hasn't been my experience when using an appropriate crossover, generally 80Hz. Although you should be delighted with the M80s, there seems to be something in your present setup that may be incorrect and is preventing your full satisfaction.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#149512 - 10/16/06 10:54 PM Re: M80s for HT and Music [Re: JohnK]
Haoleb Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/25/02
Posts: 1488
Loc: Maine
or perhaps the woofers are wired out of phase but the mids and tweeters are in phase.

Like everyone has mentioned the system you currently have is far better than average. Im not so sure that going with axioms would be so much of an upgrade as it would be just different. There was a speaker comparison where someone did DBT with the M80 vs the top of the line veritas 2.3 or 2.4? not sure. Its over at the Av science forum. check it out
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#149513 - 10/16/06 11:13 PM Re: M80s for HT and Music [Re: JohnK]
Riker Offline
devotee

Registered: 10/16/06
Posts: 375
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario
Hi John,

Thank you for the kind words, no offense taken at all, it is difficult to ascertain a person's level of knowledge from just a few post and even the best of us make the occasional mistake. Yes I did confirm that all 4 drivers are in fact functioning properly, that's the first question the Energy rep asked me. I also verified my wirring 3 times to ensure that everything is in phase. I have been wrestling with this issue for many months and I just decided to bi-wire this past weekend as another means to find my "end". Although barely noticeable, the bi-wiring did expand the soundstage a bit and improved the overall imaging. My sub is set for 80hz crossover within my processor. What I meant by not feeling natural was not so much in the integration of the sub with the mains but more in terms of the differences apparent when manually switching between 2 channel stereo and "Anthem Logic Music" wich adds the sub along with a faint stereo image on the rears, it does give the overall sound a nice evelopping feel, which, in my opinion, is pretty close to what I should be hearing from my two fronts by themselves. I do not dislike the "enhanced" processed sound, I just think I should be getting more out of my "investment" than I am hearing. I know that I will never get the raw punch and "couch vibrating" sensation I get listening to music with the Sub engaged and I'm not looking for that kind of experience out of 2 channel stereo but I would like to be satisfied with the overall sound and bass response of the mains.

Cheers and Thank you John,

Stephane

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#149514 - 10/17/06 12:11 AM Re: M80s for HT and Music [Re: Riker]
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6246
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Hi Stephane.

Like John, I ask forgiveness for belaboring the obvious. It's just that if we eliminate the simple stuff we stand a better chance to be of help. I'm not familiar with your processor, but when in the stereo 2 channel mode, without the subwoofer, are your mains set to large, rather than small, in the processor's speaker menu? If they are set to small and crossed at 80Hz in the processor, but you're not using the subwoofer, that would explain the lack of bass.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#149515 - 10/17/06 11:54 AM Re: M80s for HT and Music [Re: Ajax]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17741
Loc: NoVA
In my experience, a good sub adds to music rather than distorting or taking away. I would be looking at that first, rather than the mains.
_________________________
I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#149516 - 10/17/06 02:50 PM Re: M80s for HT and Music [Re: Riker]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3875
Loc: Up yonder
I seem to remember that Craigsub did a blind comparative review between Axiom M80’s and his Energy’s. I do not recall which model of Energy’s he has, but knowing Craig, they are probably the top of line models. I think he posted it at Audiohaulics if you care to search for it. It was a very in depth and good review. I think you should read that before jumping ship and buying Axioms. In summery, both speakers had their pro’s and con’s, but he felt they had very similar sound (again, reaching for a dim memory of what I read).

Regardless of that, after taking a look at your equipment, I’m betting that you need to spend some time with your calibration, placement and room treatments. I wouldn’t rush out to buy new until you spend some time with that first.


EDIT: I stopped being lazy and found the reveiw....he has the 2.4's.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17247


Edited by mdrew (10/17/06 03:06 PM)
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