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#149908 - 10/22/06 09:43 PM Re: subwoofer placement [Re: michael_d]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
I haven't used the test disc you refer to but when testing the sub should you be having signals sent to all the other channels ? To me that doesn't sound right.
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Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#149909 - 10/22/06 10:01 PM Re: subwoofer placement [Re: Wid]
jakeman Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/03/05
Posts: 852
Loc: Toronto
I suggest you just calibrate each speaker and sub individually using calibration disc test tones from the dvd player. Do not play the tone through more than one speaker/sub at the same time when calibrating to 75db.
_________________________
John

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#149910 - 10/22/06 10:04 PM Re: subwoofer placement [Re: michael_d]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17768
Loc: NoVA
All of the speakers should match, including the sub. Some test disks (DVE, I think) do need to have the sub calibrated 10 db hotter than the rest of the speakers. I don't remember why.
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#149911 - 10/22/06 10:33 PM Re: subwoofer placement [Re: Ken.C]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13333
Loc: Iowa
Just finished using my Discwasher Home Theater setup disc this evening. I decided to reset all of my previous Denon auto setup values to default (zero) and try the disc method. The dB levels and delay ended up being different? When I used the receiver test tones and adjusted to 75dB's the end results were 5-7 dB's higher than the CD? For example, when using the receiver, the mains are around +6dB and the surrounds ranged from +5 to +7 dB's. Also, the delay settings ended up being further with the Denon mic setup.

With the Discwasher CD, I first adjusted left speaker. The dB level was at 0dB and I just adjusted the main volume until the meter read 75dB. For the rest of the speakers I adjusted the dB levels for each channel to 75dB. The end result was all the speakers ended up being right around the same setting as the left main. I guess I'm not sure why there was such a difference compared to the receiver setup, isn't 75dB=75dB no matter how you get there?

Anyway, for the sub, the disc said to adjust it to 3dB higher than the other speakers. I also have it currently placed so the middle of the driver is 5ft from the left wall, which is 1/3 of the wall width. Seems to give me good results so far.
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#149912 - 10/22/06 10:35 PM Re: subwoofer placement [Re: SirQuack]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13333
Loc: Iowa
I forgot to mention the delay was less when I figured it manually versus the receiver calculation. Most of the speakers I had to reduce by 1-2 ft. The sub was originally set to 26ft per the receiver, infact the sub is only 9ft from the prime location. I used Jakeman's suggestion to add about 5 ft to that number. Things sound much better.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#149913 - 10/22/06 11:35 PM Re: subwoofer placement [Re: Ken.C]
jakeman Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/03/05
Posts: 852
Loc: Toronto
Quote:

All of the speakers should match, including the sub. Some test disks (DVE, I think) do need to have the sub calibrated 10 db hotter than the rest of the speakers. I don't remember why.




Encoding error. Joe Kane Productions screwed up and recorded the .1 track 12db less than they should have. When I use DVE's 6.1 tones for calibrating my side and rear surrounds I set all the speakers to 75db and the subs to 85db to compensate. With Discwasher and Avia you can set all the subs/speakers to 75db. With the RS SPL correction factor the sub will be 2-3 db hot which is where most people prefer it. If you want the subs flat with the speakers then dial in the sub at 72-73db.
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John

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#149914 - 10/23/06 08:25 AM Re: subwoofer placement [Re: jakeman]
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6250
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Quote:

Encoding error. Joe Kane Productions screwed up and recorded the .1 track 12db less than they should have. When I use DVE's 6.1 tones for calibrating my side and rear surrounds I set all the speakers to 75db and the subs to 85db to compensate. With Discwasher and Avia you can set all the subs/speakers to 75db. With the RS SPL correction factor the sub will be 2-3 db hot which is where most people prefer it. If you want the subs flat with the speakers then dial in the sub at 72-73db.



John, I assume you would then dial in the sub at 82-83 dB if you're using DVE. Correct?
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#149915 - 10/23/06 11:39 AM Re: subwoofer placement [Re: jakeman]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3903
Loc: Up yonder
I did all the speakers first, then started the LFE calibration part on the DVD. The first ‘chapter’ starts out by cycling LFE to each speaker and the sub. It will send the LFE to the L main for about five seconds, and then it sends it to the sub for about five seconds. After cycling these two several times, it moves to the center speaker and sub, then the R main and sub, and then the surrounds. The disk instructions are to adjust the sub’s gain until there is no change on the meter (slow response at C). This is where mine are screwed up. When it is cycling this LFE test tone back and forth between the two mains, the Sub’s LFE noise is about 10 DB higher than when cycling between the rest of the speakers.

I’m not real sure why this test is done; maybe it’s there to make sure that the speaker X-over settings are set correctly. I’m going to try changing those some and see what happens. After reading the manual some, the 7300 has the option of selecting the mains as large, all the others as small, but still maintaining the LFE channel and X-over settings. I might give that a whirl too.

Something is not right with my set up though. We watched LOTR’s last night and this time I kept my meter close by. Normal volume during talking scenes and non-action where averaging 60 dbs, but during the action and LFE loaded scenes the volume was hitting 95 dbs. I’m not positive but this seams to be a pretty huge jump. Has anyone else checked volume during this movie??
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#149916 - 10/23/06 11:48 AM Re: subwoofer placement [Re: Ajax]
jakeman Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/03/05
Posts: 852
Loc: Toronto
Hi Jack

Assuming you are using only DVE test tones , its important to recognize that the 0.1 tone is 12db hot. If using the SPL metre a reading of 85 with DVE gets 73db which, after considering the RS correction, is flat with the speakers at 75db. The extra 2db is the metre correction factor. ie. 87 on the metre would be 2db hot while 85 is flat with the other speakers if you have dialled in the other speakers at 75db with the tones. If you are calibrating at 82-83db with DVE your sub is set too low.

I don't recommend or use DVE anymore except for calibrating rear surrounds because of this confusion. A really good cheap calibration disc which I prefer and is easy to use is the Discwasher which I believe is made by the people who did the S & V disc.

Anyway, here is what I do with the various discs while looking at the RS metre, if you want to run the subs flat with the speakers/sub. If you want to run 2db or 3db hot just add it to the sub SPLs on the right:

DVE 75db/85db

Avia 85db/83db

Discwasher 75db/73db
_________________________
John

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#149917 - 10/23/06 12:32 PM Re: subwoofer placement [Re: jakeman]
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6250
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Quote:

Hi Jack

Assuming you are using only DVE test tones , its important to recognize that the 0.1 tone is 12db hot. If using the SPL metre a reading of 85 with DVE gets 73db which, after considering the RS correction, is flat with the speakers at 75db. The extra 2db is the metre correction factor. ie. 87 on the metre would be 2db hot while 85 is flat with the other speakers if you have dialled in the other speakers at 75db with the tones. If you are calibrating at 82-83db with DVE your sub is set too low.


DVE 75db/85db

Avia 85db/83db

Discwasher 75db/73db



Understood, and thank you John.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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