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#152218 - 11/27/06 04:35 PM Diff between AVR w/ pre out vs. pre/pro
theimage Offline
regular

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 9
Hi;
I'm curious on what are the differences between the receiver w/ pre out vs. the standard pre/pro unit beside the receiver has an integrated amp. Why do the pre/pro seems to cost more than the AVR? Essentially, the AVR w/ pre out can be used as the pre/pro with normally the same feasures such as DTS, Dolby.... Would the true pre/pro have more advanages in this case?
Thanks;

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#152219 - 11/27/06 09:44 PM Re: Diff between AVR w/ pre out vs. pre/pro [Re: theimage]
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5433
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
Um... hopefully someone else has a better answer than "the really high end audio mfgs tend to make pre-pros while everyone else makes AV receivers"

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#152220 - 11/28/06 09:16 AM Re: Diff between AVR w/ pre out vs. pre/pro [Re: theimage]
alan Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3191
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
Hi theimage,

In theory, a pre-pro may have quieter circuitry and more refined features, because the preamp chassis doesn't need to be encumbered by a big power supply and filter section to drive a receiver's many integrated amplifiers.

Wiring layouts can be more generously spaced so there is no residual hum pickup, and preamp-processors generally run very cool compared to a typical A/V receiver that has seven on-board amplifiers and a hefty power supply section.

Cooler running transistors also mean less thermal noise, which will result in impressively low noise floors. There may be more inputs, outputs, and features as well, like a built-in really quiet moving-magnet or moving-coil pre-preamp, for vinyl fanatics.

However, from a practical point of view, I doubt there are any significant audible differences in playback quality with Dolby Digital/dts and multichannel soundtracks between a preamp-processor and a receiver using all the pre-outs when levels between the two are made identical.
_________________________
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Axiom Resident Expert

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#152221 - 11/28/06 11:15 AM Re: Diff between AVR w/ pre out vs. pre/pro [Re: alan]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10942
Loc: Central NH
Alan:
Thanks for your input on this.

I've often wondered why so many people advocate buying a receiver, then adding a bunch of monoblocks. To me, it was like paying for amps in the receiver that you're not using. I always figured that if you needed serious power, just skip the receiver and get separates right from the beginning.

Hmmmm, maybe my Denon front-end isn't so bad and I can add those monoblocks..... Hmmmmm.....
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#152222 - 11/28/06 07:34 PM Re: Diff between AVR w/ pre out vs. pre/pro [Re: MarkSJohnson]
dennisdxl32 Offline
buff

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 46
Loc: Dallas, TX
From what I can tell, pre/pro's don't sell in nearly the same volume as receivers do. As a result, pre/pro's need to have bigger profit margins factored into their price in order for the companies that sell them to recuperate the investment and make some profit. Those who buy pre/pro's usually are also willing to pay a lot more than the typical person looking for a receiver, so the higher prices for pre/pro's is supported by their niche market.

Also, the components and build quality of pre/pro's is supposedly superior.

I'm currently agonizing over whether to go receiver or pre/pro-amp. Don't know if I'd be able to hear the difference in prices ...

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#152223 - 11/28/06 08:14 PM Re: Diff between AVR w/ pre out vs. pre/pro [Re: dennisdxl32]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10942
Loc: Central NH
Quote:

Also, the components and build quality of pre/pro's is supposedly superior.




That's the key: "supposedly". I was never sure if a pre-pro was more expensive due to enonomy of scale as you mentioned, or if they really WERE superior.

So many people talk about whether amps sound different, but I hear no discussions involving the preamp. I could be very wrong about this, but I always assumed that it's harder to build a good preamp than amp due to the fact that the lower signal levels are inherently closer to the noise floor and more susceptable to interferences.... which later (literally) get amplified down the signal chain.
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#152224 - 11/28/06 11:58 PM Re: Diff between AVR w/ pre out vs. pre/pro [Re: dennisdxl32]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10405
Dennis, if you examine the published sources which actually lab test receivers(e.g., Sound&Vision)you'll note that the noise levels found(more than 70dB down)are close enough to or actually at the theoretical limit as to be totally inaudible in normal use.

As Alan suggested, any advantage some separate preamps may have over some receivers involving a dB or two lower noise floor won't be audible. Engineers have learned how to design receivers combining excellent performance with moderate cost and they're in most cases the sensible cost-effective purchase.
_________________________
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#152225 - 11/29/06 04:46 PM Re: Diff between AVR w/ pre out vs. pre/pro [Re: JohnK]
dennisdxl32 Offline
buff

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 46
Loc: Dallas, TX
Oops, I didn't clarify my comment about hearing the difference between pre/pro vs. AVR. For me, the decision is more about the power from the amplifiers. My media room will be about 3500 cu ft and used for approximately 50% movies and 40% gaming. So, I figure my amplifier will need to be able to pump out a fair amount of power (at least briefly for particularly loud effects). Somehow, 100 W per channel sounds like a nice comforting number for me (I realize there's no particular rationale behind my choosing that number), so I'd like a system that could do that for at least the front 3 channels. I'm not sure that most AVR's will be able to drive 100 WPC x3 simultaneously(ignoring the lesser power draw for the surround channels). Well, the high-end AVR's may be able to, but their price tags puts them in the range of separates anyways. Most consumer AVR's (< $1000-$1500) would need a separate amplifier to put out that much power, so I'm back to considering separates.

Currently, I'm considering using a $400-$500 AVR as a pre/pro and pairing it with a $500 Emotiva LPA-1 (125 WPC x7, all channels driven). My main concern about the AVR is that the amplifier section will be drawing some power, which will run up the electricity bill and generate more heat. Unfortunately, I can't find a pre/pro that has lip sync/audio delay without costing substantially more than the AVR's that have this feature.

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#152226 - 11/29/06 04:54 PM Re: Diff between AVR w/ pre out vs. pre/pro [Re: dennisdxl32]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6722
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
Quote:

Currently, I'm considering using a $400-$500 AVR as a pre/pro and pairing it with a $500 Emotiva LPA-1 (125 WPC x7, all channels driven). My main concern about the AVR is that the amplifier section will be drawing some power, which will run up the electricity bill and generate more heat. Unfortunately, I can't find a pre/pro that has lip sync/audio delay without costing substantially more than the AVR's that have this feature.





I doubt you would be able to hear a noticable difference between a good AVR and the AVR as a pre/pro and a multi channel amp. I would go with a good 200 watt amp for the front end and leave the surround duties to the AVR.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#152227 - 11/29/06 06:20 PM Re: Diff between AVR w/ pre out vs. pre/pro [Re: theimage]
kryolla Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/30/06
Posts: 35
you should check out the outlaw 1070 I am very happy with mine


Edited by kryolla (11/29/06 06:21 PM)
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M22 mains, M3 center, outlaw 1070 receiver, 42" Plasma, A2 HD DVD, Dual SVS PB10-NSD

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