Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo imaging and soundstage

I was actually suprised when I went into the Hifi store in my area, new england, and saw that they had axiom speakers. They said they had just got them in and where actually trying them out to see if they were going to carrying them. They seemed to be very impressed with them. Anyway I told them I had recently bought the m22's but would really like to hear the m3ti's.
I was very suprised at how amazing they sounded, so I asked to hear the m22, again I was blown away, and I had a pair of these at home. They played them through an arcam integrated amp and arcam cd player, then through cambridge audio integrated amp and cd player. I own a cal dx-2 player and an audio aero prima integrated amp. It's easily comparable to these two systems, but the imaging and stounstage coming from the speaker at the store was something I had not heard at home.
I realize these stores rooms are designed to do just this, make the speakers sound as good a they can. I know their full of specially placed room treatments and built in the ideal sizes, so my question is what, if there is anything, can I do to get the similar results in my room?

I think you need to analyze what was special about those listening rooms. Your equipment is a notch above the Cambridge duo, and maybe slightly below the Arcam duo. However, the differences are not vast in either direction.
What was the music used?
What were they wired with?
Was a subwoofer connected? (This is a favourite item that most stores leave engaged-some without realizing it)
Remember the room? Was there any audio acoustic treatments? What was the room built from, drywall etc?
What were the stands used for the pieces? Is the isolation from resonance and vibration vastly different from your setup? Speakers? Positioning of speakers and placements? Is the sheer size of the room different from yours?
Were they the only speakers in the room? (Linn dealers have only one set of speakers in listening rooms, as they believe the sound waves will cause any other speakers in the room to become engaged in moving air).

I think that there are so many variables in this equation that you, and only you may be able to answer this question.

Regards,

BBIBH

Thanks for the reply.

I wish I had brought some of my own CD's. the music was rock, but definitely a high quality recording. One that would definitely show the speakers off well.

there was no sub hooked up, but several other speakers in the room.

there was plently of audio acoustic treatments. i think that's what i'm trying to figure out do they really make that big of a difference. also the cd player was on one of those isolation pads.
i think i still really need to keep experimenting in my own room, but i think the acoustic treatment have a lot to do with it. while i was there i turned up the volume and it sounded great, but when at home as i turned up the volume I could tell it was getting to loud and when i left the room in my apartment i could tell it had been too loud . My ear where not ringing, but i could definitely feel that i had had it at a loud volume, but at the store when i left the room my ears were fine.
I notice a lot of places have like throw rugs style rugs hanging on the walls, is that worth trying? Also I have a single bed in my room is that going to affect the imaging or soundstage?

Based on what you describe, I doubt the other speakers in the room had a significant impact. I mentioned it because it is a variable, however small.

I think you have hit on the major difference - acoustical treatment. I will tell you that this is a science unto itself, with many variables. Start with the walls in your room, compared to the listening room. Focus on the furniture and floor coverings as well. Move things around, and introduce new elements (pillows, rugs, chairs, etc) to the area.

You mention sound being different. Was the bass or treble different? The wavelengths of these are at opposite ends of the scale, and different materials alter them. Bass has long wave lengths, and large, thick items alter them...such as a sofa. Where as the wave length for treble is very short, and tapestry and curtains can alter them.

You can isolate your pieces using tiptoes, or other similar devices. For kicks I took a piece of MDF, about 5/8" - 3/4" thick and simply put 4 long screws through the corners. I placed my sources on it and noticed a difference in several qualities of the sound. Spikes on the speakers are recommended by some as well. CD Players and turntables are susceptable to vibrations, and all materials resonate at certain frequencies.

I suspect that the dealer had their room specifically and professionally treated to aid in their ability to demonstrate the products. You may benefit from speaking to them. Mass renovations may be difficult in your apartment, without finding yourself, and new stereo equipment out on the street!!!

Regards,

BBIBH

thanks for the advice. i was starting to think maybe I had made the wrong choices in buying my equipment, but the fact that three different systems I listened to at the store were producing the similar quality in sound I assumed it had a lot to do with the room set up.

No, your choices were good. Unfortunately, tuning rooms is more of a job than selecting pieces for a system.

You mention different songs played in the listening rooms. Do you have access to them to listen to at home? Do you remember what they were? I do know that some dealers keep music on hand to demonstrate with that is complimentary to the pieces they are demonstrating. After all, you would not want to put on a song that makes the equipment sound stressed, and therefore bad!

Best of luck.

Regards,

BBIBH

no I can not remember what the music was, but I may go back just to get the title and try it at my house. My brother-in-law came over and he was amazed at the sound and soundstage of the systems. He particularly found the mid range on the speaker incredible. I was glad to hear his good comments.
He actually came over to test out some different speaker cables I was auditioning. A $600, 10' TransparentCable "Music Wave" and $200+ 10' pair of TransparentCable the music wave 100. Honestly we could not tell the difference between the two. We also heard no difference between them and the $6.00 Home Depot wire. Some people maybe able to tell, but if I can't, that's what matters. So I can save my money for a new turntable!

Solid logic on your part! You are correct, it is your hard earned money, and if you don't hear the difference, make the correct choice and go the sane route.

Besides, think of how nice a Rega 3 will sound in your system! It will make a bigger difference than the expensive cable.

I must admit that I have a difficult time discerning the differences between cables in my NAD/Rega/Axiom system. I presently use economy Monster speaker wire (if my memory serves...). Differences are easier to see once a higher quality tool (such as my hifi system) is engaged.

But as I have already posted many times, cables do not make a system vastly better. It is simply the final shining touches on an already good system. This is of course once you get above the "throw in" cables dealers give. For the most part they should be used to tie up any garbage you have to dispose of. On second thought, that would be toxic waste..... ;)

Regards,

BBIBH

duff,

Where in New Enbland did you find the Axiom's? I am also a resident of the area and would like to be able to listen to the Axioms.

Thanks,
GAB

Fidelis in Salem, NH has them www.fidelisav.com Is that in your area?
they have the m3ti and the m22 models.

Edited by duff on 02/11/02 11:05 AM.

i found a great link that has solved some of my problems. Worth checking out, it's about setting up speakers in a rectangular room.
http://www.cardas.com/insights/roomsetup.html


here's another cheap experiment I may try for my turntable, since I need a new stand for my components. http://www.audiophilia.com/hardware/diyttstand.htm

Cardas is one of the major names in audio. They are well respected in the industry on several fronts. First and foremost they make cables of renowned quality.

The main principle of this stand is KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid (not directed at anyone....)
He overstates the affect of the stand "it would be like upgrading from a "cheap and cheerful" Grado to a US$500 moving coil." But no doubt that the materials used would isolate the table from any room resonances. There are many stands available for this purpose, they look better....but cost more! ;)
I remember a magazine printing a letter from someone who used spikes on his speakers, onto a patio slab on tiptoes to the floor. Hey, that is the beauty of audio.....whatever you feel is correct and sounds correct!

I know the city where they author credits the inventor of owning a shop very well.. I have not heard of this shop, and may search it out.

Regards,

BBIBH

Hello BBIBH and duff,

There's an interesting psychoacoustic phenomenon that goes on in these situations. When we hear good speakers in our own room, which we're used to, we accommodate the nuances and colorations (good and bad) that characterize those particular speakers in our own room--and that becomes our "reference" sound. Now, when we hear the same or similarly good speaker somewhere else, all the variables (except the speakers) change. The "sound" of course, is quite different, but in our ear/brain memory, "different" becomes "better". In reality, it isn't necessarily "better", just different. I've noticed this with friends who aren't into audio as a hobby like we are. They always think other peoples stereo & home theater systems sound "better" than their own. Good and very good speakers will always sound somewhat different with any change in the room dimensions, the absorbancey of the furnishings, the program material, and the placement of the speakers.

So don't worry about it. It's just that you're accustomed to the sound of the M22Ti's in your room. When I've been away from my home for weeks, and then return, I'm usually astonished at how wonderful the sound is from my speakers. It's as though they had aged and become more refined in my absence. But my acoustical memory had simply blurred over the time I was away. You may experience the same phenomenon with your Axiom M22Ti's.


Alan Lofft
Axiom Resident Expert

I would venture to take this on step further. As we listen to "any" system in our familiar surroundings, we become used to the sound. This is true of bad, mediocre, good or excellent systems. As I have mentioned in anothr post, "psychoacoustic phenomenon" usually means "it is all in your head". This is similar to becoming comfortable with something, and then witnessing similar events in another setting, and believing it was much better outside of our frame of reference. It may not be, as you stated. But it leaves us wanting.

In terms of what duff was experiencing, this could very well be the case. However, with the description of the dealers implied criteria (acoustic treatment, musical choice, and systems possibly tweaked to highlight their best qualities), it is probably a combination. I have seen astonsihed people who have felt their systems lacking, or believe they are top quality amazed when you make adjustments to small things present in the room. This could be speaker placement, minor furniture rearrangemets, or even closing curtains over large windows.

This is all part of the nature of the beast! This is definitely a "tweak hobby"! Duff now has the disease...one that is a GOOD one to catch! ;)

Regards,

BBIBH