Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Could use some help deciding.

Hello everyone. I'm new to the board. I have about $10,000 to spend on home theater/music speakers, an amp and a processor. I own nothing but a TV at the moment. I have a 64" Pioneer Elite HDTV. Should I consider the Axiom speakers or would you suggest stepping up to something more expensive. I auditioned the axioms at someone's home nearby but the setup was poor and they sounded bad. There are lots of rave reviews about these speakers so I don't want to pass up a good sounding system for alot less than $10k if I don't have to. I have also listened to Paradigms, all the stuff at Best Buy, Mirage, KEF, Definitive, Klipsch, etc. You know, after awhile they all start to sound the same. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

First off, welcome.

Second, please describe your listening room. Size, items in the room, type of flooring, etc.

Third, what will the system be used for, movies, music, both? What percentage (50%/50%, 75%/25%, etc)?

Lastly, where did you listen to Axiom speakers? Do recall the models? There may be others in your area with properly setup speakers that would give you a better audition.

That will get us started.

Welcome!

Another question: does that budget include remodeling or furniture?

My feeling is that if the speakers are all sounding alike, you're not listening to the right speakers. The right speakers will stand out. Don't go to Best Buy. Find a stereo shop, and look there. Paradigm makes some nice stuff, but you have to be looking at the high end of the line. I'm also partial to Magnepans, but they can be hard to find. Back when they were around, Hales stood out for me. When I first heard Axiom M22s, they stood out. They still do! B&W's 704 series is said to sound similar to the Axiom M60s (I've not heard them).

Sorry I didn't include this info. The room is 34' by 23'. 9' ceilings. Its a finished room with berber carpet, sheetrock walls, sprayed plaster ceiling, glass patio doors, windows on one wall, in the lower level of my house. A pool table, wet bar, etc is in half the room. The TV is in the other half. No walls divide the room. There are 5 other rooms on that level but all down the hallway. It would probably be used 75% movies and 25% music. I listened to the Epic 80 system with some kind of inexpensive sub that I think he paid $200 for. Maybe its me, but I think his receiver wasn't powerful enough either. The sound was not exceptionally clear and the sort of muffled bass was very distracting.

Welcome.
If it was the epic 80 and he bought the sub for $200. I would bet the sub was blurring the M80's. Did you listen with the sub off? The M80's are 4ohm loads and not many amps will drive them.

For your room I would suggest the Epic 80 500 and even the 600 to fill it nicely with sound and I wouldn't hold back on the amp/receiver either. Denon 380X, Yamaha2700 and up at least.

Give Axiom a call as well and see what they suggest.

Any speaker you buy will most likely sound a little different in your own house than in the showroom. Take advantage of the return policy here if the Axioms don't suit you. Maybe even order only 2 at first. They will carry over the extra discounts later if purchased in time.

>>The room is 34' by 23'. 9' ceilings.

For a room of that massive size I would recommend the following:

2 x M80s for the fronts
VP150 for the center (or 2 x M22s ala mdrew)
4 x QS8s for the surround channels (depending on how far back your rear speakers would be you could utilize M22s back there for 7.1)
2 x EP600 subs

I say if you got the money, you midaswell go all out!

If you buy anything from Axiom, at least consider their EP600 sub and their surrounds. They are some of the best in the business.

Welcome Revel!

I agree with Jason (Jakewash). From your description, it sounds as though the subwoofer was either incompetent, or wasn't properly integrated with the rest of the speakers, and was having a deleterious effect on the whole listening experience. I've never heard Axioms described as lacking clarity. The complaints, from those who find them not to their liking, are usually at the other end of the spectrum.

If you'll share your general location with us, we may be able to steer you to another audition. Of, if you've not already done so, check the Auditioning Axioms in Your Area thread to see if there is someone else in your area. At the very least, you could order a pair of the Axiom main speakers which interest you (M80s?), audition them in your own home for up to 30 days, and, if you found them not to your taste, return them. You would only lose the cost of return shipping to Buffalo, NY. If you like them, then you could go ahead and order the rest of the system.

You've got a large room, so I would budget a good amount toward a subwoofer(s). In a room that size, at the minimum, I'd consider two EP500s or one EP600, or something comparable.

Lastly, I'll make my usual recommendation that you make a toll free call to Axiom, explain your situation (room size, etc.) and ask their advice. They are not some big impersonal corporation. They are down to earth folks whose passion is making great speakers. You'd find them very helpful, and they won't recommend anything you neither need nor want. In fact, there have been a number of instances where they recommended a smaller system than the caller was initially considering. They are more interested in creating a satisfied customer than making a quick sale.

Again, welcome. And good hunting.

You said 10K, and that you only have a TV.

Can you clarify? Do you mean to say that you still need the speakers and electronics for a complete HT? Based on that assumption, here’s what I’d do, which by no means is the “right” thing to do……Just what I’d do.

I wouldn’t hesitate going with Axiom. Ya, I have a full array of Axiom speakers so I guess I could be called a fan boy, but I also have a set of much more expensive speakers that aren’t Axiom too. That being said, don’t let the “budget” price of Axioms fool you into thinking they are not on pair with high end speakers. And their EP subs are very hard to beat, at just about any price point. From your description of the Axiom system you listened to, something was amiss. If you would have said they are too forward or too detailed or just plain bright……then I’d say you probably don’t like the way they sound. But I haven’t ever heard anyone describe their sound the way you did.

For your room size, I’d go with the 80’s for mains, a pair of 22’s for the center channel, and four QS-8’s for the surround and SB’s. For sub, I’d go with two 500’s, or two 600’s if you still have money left over to upgrade from the 500’s. There’s a gazillion different choices of finish for Axiom speakers now, and they all come with a price. You could keep it simple and go with their standard vinyl finish or go all the way up to the wood veneer with a piano finish. If you go with rosewood in a piano finish (the most expensive option), and two 500’s, that’s about 9K. If you go with the same speakers in a vinyl finish, that would run you about 5K. Or, you could even go with factory outlet stuff at another 10% off. Personally, I’d stick with the real wood finish.

Besides speakers it sounds like you are going to need some electronics to drive them. Depending on what you do with speakers, your choices vary from one extreme to the other. I’m drooling over the new NAD Master Series separates right now and trying to convince myself that I really don’t “need” them, but I suspect they’ll be sitting in my rack before too long. The Pre / Po and seven channel amp combo has a retail price of 6K. Or, on the other extreme, you could go with a mid line AVR for about a grand and probably be quite happy with it. Somewhere in the middle is Rotel. They have a great little 7.1 AVR out now with HDMI switching for about 1K. It has 5 power amps so it’s perfect for a set of 80’s. You just pick up a separate two channel amp for the 80’s at about $800. The RB1080 is a great amp and it plays well with the 80’s.

So what about your DVD player?? If you don’t have one yet, the Oppo 971 does a terrific job and it’s dirt cheap. Or, you could dump a grand on one of the new Denons, another grand on a Blue Ray HD player and other grand on a HD-DVD player…….Lot’s of choices here.

So really, how much of your money can I help you spend??? I just love spending money, even more so when it's not mine.

Be careful of associating "more expensive" with "better." You can spend 3 grand on a brand that rhymes with "No highs, No lows" and have 3 grand of crap.

If you have that much to spend dont forget to calibrate your system and invest in room treatments.

Drew

I differ a little from others (and by the way, hello everyone...been awhile). As Ajax has mentioned, listen to a "good" set up before you make any decisions. I would also look around at the other internet direct speakers out there so that you have an informed decision on whatever you go with. Nothing worse then getting something and then only wishing that you went another direction.

As for me, and others here, I have three systems that cover two of the internet direct companies and love them both, yet both sound very different. You need to ask yourself what type of sound you like and try to pick that out when you do go for your listening "interviews". I then bought just mains to make sure I liked what I got. Nothing worse then getting half a dozen boxes in and then figuring out that you have to return a half dozen boxes. Many of the companies will honor the "package deal" if you go back to them before or after and expalin the issue to them.

Anyway, you have a great budget to play with. Once you find which amp to go with, check audiogon.com to see if you can get a great deal. 99% of the time you will find the item you are looking for there. With the saving you realize in the pre/pro you can have more to invest in speakers, wire, seating, DVD/CD player...ect, ect.

Half the fun is in doing the homework and set up as the satifaction of hearing great sounds was because of your hard work.

Good luck,
Craig

Thanks for all the good advice everyone. MDREW, the TV price is not part of the $10k. Its a rear projection Pioneer Elite 64" that's 2 yrs old. I also have a Pioneer Elite DVD player. I surfed online at Outlaw's website and priced their 990 Processor and their model 7700 Amp. These seem to be their best separates. The amp generates 200W per channel in 7.1 at 8 ohm and 300W per at 4 ohm. Do any of you have opinions on Outlaw equipment? Is 200W @ 8 ohms enough power for the Epic 80 system for me to get nice clear sound? Price for both is only $3,250 so I don't know about the quality of this equipment. A rep at Axiom gave me Outlaw's name as a place to look for equipment.

Outlaw is a great company to go with. Tech support is always willing to help, with any subject. I was once on the phone for 45 min with the tech as he walked me through initial set up. Very nice people and great product line.

I've heard good things about Outlaw electronics. I don't have any though. Yes, their amps will drive the 80's very nicely. This is just me, but I'd go with Rotel over Outlaw. This pair will run you about $2300

http://www.rotel.com/products/specs/rsx1057.htm
http://www.rotel.com/products/specs/rb1080.htm

If you went with them, you'd have enough money left over for your speakers. You could go with one EP 500 for now and buy a second one later if you decide you need it. For the hell of it, I just put this in a cart to see what the price would be.......

1
Remove Pair VaSSallo Series M80 Towers
Color: Cherry Bordeaux Piano (Gold Accessory Pack & Burnt Sienna Grille) $2,200.00 USD $2,200.00 USD
1
Remove Pair VaSSallo Series M22 Bookshelf Speakers
Color: Cherry Bordeaux Piano (Gold Accessory Pack & Grille) $825.00 USD $825.00 USD
1
Remove Pair VaSSallo Series QS8 Surrounds
Color: Cherry Bordeaux Piano (Gold Accessory Pack & Grille) $862.50 USD $862.50 USD
1
Remove Pair VaSSallo Series QS8 Surrounds
Color: Cherry Bordeaux Piano (Gold Accessory Pack & Grille) $862.50 USD $862.50 USD
1
Remove VaSSallo Series EP500
Color: Cherry Bordeaux Piano (Gold Accessory Pack & Grille) $1,850.00 USD $1,850.00 USD
1
Remove VaSSallo Series EP500
Color: Cherry Bordeaux Piano (Gold Accessory Pack & Grille) $1,850.00 USD $1,850.00 USD
Subtotal $8,450.00 USD
Home Theater Discount
(5% discount if we ship 5 items to you at one time) $422.50 USD

Shipping Included
Total
$8,027.50 USD

Going this route, you'd have two great subs, some kick ass electronics to drive some very purty speakers. Jut a little over 10K. This will at least give you something to ponder over......good luck.

Once again, thanks for the advice everyone. I am close to picking a system now. I appreciate all the help. I am leaning heavily toward B&W 802D's, HTM2 center, ASW 825 sub, 805 rears, a Rotel RMB 1095 amp and Rotel RSP 1068 Processor. Yes, I know this is not an Axiom system. I heard those B&W's and they just blew away everthing else I had listened to---even the Paradigm Signature 8's. Of course, they are almost twice as expensive as the Sig 8's, but I don't intend on buying another system for several years and I want a good one for my first one. The whole thing before setup and wires is about $22,000. I know this is far above my initial budget, but I just didn't like the sound of anything I heard at the stereo shops in my $10k budget. I can still afford the B&W's without doing any loans or selling a child, etc. Once again, thank's for all your input.

OMG, my next car won't cost that much and I bet it will get used more. I wish I had that kind of spare change.

With that kind of funding, why not order the M80's, just to see how they sound, return shipping is a drop in the bucket in that price range. I would be interested in your thoughts on them as you have now heard lots of competitor speakers.

Jakewash,
I realize how expensive this B&W system is, but you wouldn't believe how good it sounds. If you have heard the 802D's then maybe you do know what I mean. Nothing I have heard comes close to these speakers. Final cost with sales tax, cables, installation will run $25,000 I suspect. It's pretty bad that this cost as much as a new car. I may still order the Axiom M80's and have a listen. I'll see how things progress.

If you like the 802’s, then I suspect you won’t like the M80’s very much. I wasn’t overly impressed with them myself and preferred the 703’s over the 802’s, but they do have a large fan base. The important aspect is what sounds good to you and you have found a set up that does. Congrats on your choice and enjoy your toys.

One thing I might suggest is for you to look at some different electronics seeing how your budget got blown to hell anyway. Most shops that sell B&W also sell Rotel and try to push that combination because the two are in bed together, but I think the 800 series are better paired with McIntosh. I’d also be looking real hard at the NAD Masters Series Pre/Po and AMP. If they sound half as sexy as they look, they’d put them little blue pills out of business. But if you are sold on Rotel, then I’d look a little harder at the AVR I recommended above because it’s the only thing Rotel has with HDMI. The 1068 that the salesman has you sold on does not have HDMI switching. I can tell you without any doubt that you most definitely want HDMI switching. Put that right at the top of your list of wants/needs. If you salesman tries to tell you that you don’t need it, or that you need HDMI 1.3 or anything else, get another salesman that knows what in the hell he’s talking about and is not just trying to unload out dated products on you.

I could be wrong but I've heard that people switching HDMI through a receiver were having issues with HDCP going to their TVs. ??? Most were ending up having to hook their cable boxes and HD DVD/Blu-Ray players up directly to the TV rather than routing them through their receivers. ???

Or did I misunderstand the issue?

I have no video problems whatsoever routing HDMI through the AVR; other than the irritating handshakes that the AVR, DVD P, Video Processor and Projector all have to make every time I switch inputs or pull up an on-screen-display. But yes, there have been some problems with particular display devises talking to AVRs or Players. In most cases firmware updates have resolved these issues, but not all.

My problems have all been audio related. Coax and Optical are limited not by bandwidth capabilities, but all these stinking electronic handshakes that supposedly prevent “illegal” copying of digital audio. You will not be able to get True Dolby, the HD DTS format (forgot what it’s called), or SACD without HDMI, -- unless the player will output these via 6 or 8 channel direct. HDMI sucks, period. Unfortunately that is the direction that the industry is heading and all of can either get on the bus or be content with regular Dolby and DTS and watch the big bus head on down the road. There really is no other choice. And even if you do go with 6/8 channel direct, you will be limited to one source seeing how 95% of the processors on the market only have one 6/8 channel direct input. So if you have an HD DVD player, a Blue Ray player and a SACD player, you’re screwed.

One exception to HDMI is Denon’s exclusive Denon Link. I don’t know much about it as I’ve never owned a Denon. But I hear it works fairly well. I don’t know about the HD audio formats and if the “Link” will pass them or not.

I suppose one other exception is with two channel audio. A person could go vinyl and ignore all this digital crap if they wished. Which doesn’t sound like a half bad idea to me…….certainly less stuff to give a person grief.

I'm watching the bus go down the road. I expect that many consumers will as well--and more won't know there is a bus.