 Re: Measuring power going to speakers?
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,155
connoisseur
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Yes, that is the one. Good show!!!!
Does Gena still post on this board? I haven't seen anything from him in quite a while. Of course, that could just be me since I haven't been all that active until recently.
I still think that that series of posts was one of the best technical threads.
I have continued to look for articles on peak/ average power per speaker for 5.1 and 7.1 systems but haven't found any. I suspect that some of the major companies have run tests but are keeping the data proprietary.
The Rat.
M80s, VP-150, QS8s,
SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO,
Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880
Sony 60" SXRD HDTV
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Re: Measuring power going to speakers?
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 10,420
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
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Quote:
I have continued to look for articles on peak/ average power per speaker for 5.1 and 7.1 systems but haven't found any. I suspect that some of the major companies have run tests but are keeping the data proprietary.
Not sure what you mean here, as those kind of specs would be continuously variable per speaker during playback depending on the volume a person wishes to listen at and the mix that was done.
Jason
M80 v2
VP160 v3
QS8 v2
PB13 Ultra
Denon 3808
Samsung 85" Q70
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Re: Measuring power going to speakers?
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,155
connoisseur
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Yes, you are absolutely correct!!!!
However, there ought to be some metrics on how much power the fronts, surrounds, and rear surrouds take on different types of music at different listening levels.
For example, if the fronts take 1 watt, then I would expect that the surrounds would take 1/4 watt or something like that.
It should not be that difficult for a major company to put scopes or peak reading power meters on all speakers and see what the readings are.
The Rat.
M80s, VP-150, QS8s,
SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO,
Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880
Sony 60" SXRD HDTV
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Re: Measuring power going to speakers?
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,102
connoisseur
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OP
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Quote:
Robb, there'd be no reason for the paralleled center speakers to be "clipping". When the speakers are operating in parallel there's an increase of 3dB in sound level, so dropping the level 3dB to keep it the same as before results in only half as much power being required, not more. Apparently, as strongly suspected, the 659 has no problem with that load, which drops below 4 ohms at certain frequencies.
Well, i got my email back from Yamaha Canada, they stated that the centre channel is not designed for a 4ohm speaker, i suspect that since it is 2 speakers creating a 4ohm load, like you said John, the output is 3db louder and thus the load will be 3db less than normal 4ohm speaker.
They recommended NOT to run a 4ohm speaker on the centre channel, I have not experienced any distortion or clipping from the load on the reciever even after playing at really loud levels in my little room around -15db is loud to me 
I'll let you all know if further problems persist with the 4ohm parallel load, but I suspect that all will be fine.
PS: The downstairs is ALL painted! just waiting for the carpet....ooooooooooooooo yyyyyyyyeeeeeaaaaaaahhhhhhh.
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Re: Measuring power going to speakers?
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,155
connoisseur
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I think that you may be starting to get confused with driving point impedance and power versus how many speakers that you are using. Your amplifier really does not care how many speakers are connected in parallel, series or a parallel-series combination to give a driving point impedance of 4 ohms, 8 ohms or any other value. The efficiencies of the speakers connected in whatever fashion will determine the sound level.
Not to make things complicated, but 4 ohms is 4 ohms is 4 ohms.
The Rat.
M80s, VP-150, QS8s,
SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO,
Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880
Sony 60" SXRD HDTV
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Re: Measuring power going to speakers?
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 6,833
axiomite
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axiomite
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Quote:
Not to make things complicated, but 4 ohms is 4 ohms is 4 ohms.
This is true but a 4 ohm impedence will draw more power from an amp at any given point on the dial.
Rick
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud
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Re: Measuring power going to speakers?
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 10,420
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
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Quote:
Yes, you are absolutely correct!!!!
However, there ought to be some metrics on how much power the fronts, surrounds, and rear surrouds take on different types of music at different listening levels.
For example, if the fronts take 1 watt, then I would expect that the surrounds would take 1/4 watt or something like that.
It should not be that difficult for a major company to put scopes or peak reading power meters on all speakers and see what the readings are.
Why would the surrounds only take 1/4 of a watt if the front takes 1 watt? They will take what ever they need to send out the sound to the proper calibrated level. The amount a speaker takes depends on the level commanded by the source. If the front is 1 watt then the same sound source through your surrounds would be 1 watt, if all the speaker settings are the same.
Or are you wondering about adjusted speaker levels and the fact that the rears might be adjusted to output, say 3db higher to achieve 75db at main listening spot. In this case I know there is a formula to go from db to watts,(something like 10watts per decibel). Then using my made up formula, the extra wattage needed for the +3db speaker is somewhere near 30 watts more power needed.
Jason
M80 v2
VP160 v3
QS8 v2
PB13 Ultra
Denon 3808
Samsung 85" Q70
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Re: Measuring power going to speakers?
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,102
connoisseur
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Quote:
Not to make things complicated, but 4 ohms is 4 ohms is 4 ohms.
But there is such a thing as 4ohm using less power and 4ohm using more power correct?
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Re: Measuring power going to speakers?
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Hi,
It doesn't surprise me that Yamaha Canada warned against running a 4-ohm load on the center channel. Most mainstream AV manufacturers would say the same thing because of consumer liability issues.
But in your small room, it seems your 659 is not unduly stressed by the lower impedance.
By the way, I wouldn't try and keep increasing the output level on your Yamaha beyond normally loud levels, as you wouldn't want the center channel amp to clip. It might do so and send a square wave to the M3's tweeter burning it out instantly. The protection ciruitry in the 659 is supposed to prevent this from happening but, you never know. And it could happen before you heard any gross distortion because the masking effects of 5.1 channels running are substantial. Distortion in the center might go unnoticed until it was too late. . .
Axiom would get really cranky about replacing your M3's tweeter if that happened while you were "testing" how loud it would play.
Regards,
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert (Retired)
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Re: Measuring power going to speakers?
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>>Axiom would get really cranky about replacing your M3's tweeter if that happened while you were "testing" how loud it would play.>>Thanks for the warning Alan, I didn't know that this could possibly happen. I will cease to continue my testing on the centre channel, the last thing I want is a cranky Axiomite 
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