Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Technical Questions Analog or digital?

I have a Harman Kardon FL8380 cd changer, and a Harman Kardon AVR-120. The cd changer has both analog and digital outputs.

Apparently both the cd player and receiver have excellent DACs. I've been using analog, but I realize that my interconnects were very cheap, so until I got better ones, I switched to digital (since I have a good digital cable).

So: How do I know which is better? Will I be able to hear the difference? So fat I'm liking the digital connection better because it sounds "louder" at the same level of volume.

Basically it's just up to what you like the sound of better. The digital out will use your processors DAC's while the analog out will be using your cd player's DAC's.

Why does this post look so familiar to me?

Ummm, you read it more than once?

Ah, an example of Peter's relevant and insightful posts. j/k

Actually, Peter and I did a blind test of analog vs. digital awhile ago, and we couldn't tell the difference. Granted, both sources were not exactly high quality, and it was only single blind, and the changeover wasn't instantaneous, but still...

As I recall, that comparison was between a standard-quality "no-frills" analog stereo interconnect and a regular Monster Toslink cable.

Oh, I don't think it was Toslink. I think it was a regular old coax cable that we had lying around.

Some receivers process audio in the digital domain for balance, level, tone, and special effects if you use them. So if you use the digital input, the signal stays digital until it exits through the receivers DACs. If you use the analog input, the receiver must do an another ADC first. This hurts the fidelity.

Nope. My CD changer doesn't have coax out.

Stop following me

Geez. You would have thought that I would have looked at the neato cable. How strange.

Ah! Wait! We did it with that POS Zenith DVD player that you had. Which, probably, did have coax. So there! Nyah!

I was here first!

WHat's your Axiom setup?

I've basically got an Epic 80 set up with a pair of M22's for the rears in a 7.1 configuration.

Hey folks, I don't want to incite yet another flame war here, but Tom_Bombadil, a highly reasonable guy who frequents the AVSforum, claims that he could actually hear sonic differences among different CD/DVD players and DAC's in blind tests. He openly admits that the same is NOT true among solidstate amps and pre-amps -- he says he has almost never been able to hear a difference among them (which, to me, makes his claims more trustworthy).

Here are exerpts from his recent posts in the AVSforum:

While I have participated in a number of double-blind tests which have created serious doubts in me as to the differences in solid-state amps (however I can't say that all of them sound the same), and pretty much the same from any reasonable quality solid-state preamp (although I believe they can be made to be different), the same tests have confirmed to me that there can be pretty significant differences between CD & DVD players, external DACs, and receivers functioning as same.

...

I too have brought in some very well-regarded high-end amps and preamps and spent 2-3 days with them, conducting double-blind tests toward the end of those periods, and was never able to discern much of a difference. With the exception of some tube gear, which is quite understandably different.

I own low- to mid-level amps from Parasound, Audio Alchemy, Rotel, Cary, and the amp-in accessable amp in my HK AVR8000 (yes, I own 5 amps). I've tested various combinations of these amps against gear from Pass, Krell, Aragon, BAT, and Threshold. (and I've run even more comparisons in friends' homes and on dealer showfloors.) I've yet to see anyone pass one of these comparisons.

One of those dealer-floor comparisons was an Adcom 5500 vs a BAT amp through some very expensive speakers. Neither I nor the salesman were able to tell them apart. The sound was magnificent through both.

But I have passed multiple CD/DAC comparisons, and found a couple of them quite easy to pass. I've failed my share too. I've twice upgraded my CD gear after passing and loving the difference.

So based on these experiences, the primary money in my system has been spent on the CD front end and my speakers. There may be differences in the way that amps sound, but I've yet to hear any difference that justified the cost of upgrading ... at least with solid state gear.


What would y'all say on these claims?

First thing, I'd wonder what he meant by "reasonable quality solid-state preamp" or amp. I don't have too much trouble believing the DAC issue; there must be significant design issues/differences with DACs.

However, does this mean he is advocating high quality/price external DACs with high quality/price CD carriers, or can you "get away with" reasonable quality CD players? Or even high quality/price external DAC with a "cheap/reasonable quality" CD carrier/player?

He's not specific enough for me to ascertain what exactly he's testing. If he's saying he can hear the difference between DACs, I'd believe him. I wouldn't be surprised if he hears a difference between the DAC in a CD player v. the DAC in a receiver v. the DAC in a better CD player. What I would be surprised and heavily skeptical of is if he claims he can hear the difference between CD players when outputting in digital.

But I can't tell exactly what he's compared.

Masa, Tom doesn't give any details of the procedures, and the mere statement that he's "passed" some and "failed" others would appear to be meaningless. There are always participants in blind tests who "pass" some of the tests and then might "fail" the same test when it's repeated. I would suspect that the overall results, if the testing was run properly, failed to show differences.

sushi,
I tend to agree with JohnK and Semi with their lines of thinking.
The individual has not provided very much detail on exactly what was tested making it difficult to comment on his opinions.
From my limited testing when searching for cdps, my wife and i could not hear any difference b/w 2 models (Panasonic and Hitachi), nor b/w the analog and digital when using the Onkyo 797 receiver.

Yeah, I see what you guys are saying...

As judged by the context and from his other posts, he was talking about the quality of DACs and associated circuits, i.e., sonic differences via the analog connection from the players.

Hi Sushi;

I was wondering why you went the direction of driving your Hales with your Adcom via pre-outs rather than using the Pioneers own front main power?

I went with Brystons from the pre-outs from my Rotel and "thought" there was a percieved change in sound quality vs the Rotels own power. I had other people do the test and they "seemed" or "thought" it sounded better.

Chess when are you coming to Toronto so that you can show me I'm just a crazy fool "thinking" and "hearing things" that there is a perceived changed in sound quality of my system just using the Bryston's 4B vs Rotels own power.

Saturn

Actually Saturn i will be stopping over in TO briefly in September but probably only for an hour.
TO layovers tend to be short.
My ultimate destination is Ottawa for a week. Perhaps i will be able to catch the Axiom tour bus on its way out to the NRC facilities...

I didnt know they had a tour bus to the Axiom facilites?

In reply to:

---

I was wondering why you went the direction of driving your Hales with your Adcom via pre-outs rather than using the Pioneers own front main power?

---

Heh-heh...

1) I already owned the Adcom amp. I guess I can sell it any time, but while thinking about it, why don't I make use of it...?
2) Releaving the 45TX receiver of the front L/R duty makes it run cooler.
3) It is visually nicer to have the big amp sitting on the shelf.
4) Sonic difference? I really don't know. But the power specs suggest a 2-3dB more headroom, which would never hurt.
5) It is COOL to have separate power amps.
6) When an "audiophile" friend is visiting, I don't have to make 100 excuses...

Bottom line: It is mostly PSYCHOLOGICAL.

There's that nasty perception vs. reality bug that keeps all those higher-end audio companies in business!