Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Where's my high end?

I have recently moved to a larger home with vaulted ceilings and a bigger living room (300 sq.ft.) My m2i's are finally in a good spot in terms of listening:

14 feet away with about 6.5 feet between them. They sit on a pair of SS24s (24" from hardwood floor), tweeters are almost exactly ear height.

The problem is the articulation at the high end. When I compare the high end articulation to my Sennheiser SD580 (headphones) there is no comparison. There is a muddiness and a real lack of precision. This problem is especially obvious on Bach keyboard pieces and is independent of sub-woofer settings (including off).

Anyway, I've had the speakers for nearly 6-8 months; now that I have finally set them up (properly?)- I'm disappointed.

Is this an amp problem? My old Denon (2 channel) is rated at 80 wpc into 8 ohms. Or should I have purchased a pair of M22tis?

Thanks for all of you who replied to my previous post about a/v amps. With your recommendations and some comparison shopping I hope to a good decision about separates vs recievers. Still leaning toward separates though.

Smarter people than me will be along to offer observations (some with formulas, I'm sure...). My impression is that is a BIG room for those speakers, that they are pretty close to the floor, and that the reflections from the hard wood floor are probably muddying things quite a bit. I'd play with placement and surface treatments before going into full-blown upgraditis mode (which is probably inevitable).

yes, 14 feet away might be a bit far from the m2's. Dont expect the M2's to sound better than the senns. its much eaiser for headphones to sound good than speakers.

I assume that you meant by "Bach keyboard pieces" some harpsichord recordings. The harpsichord sounds certainly contain a lot of treble energy, and in order to reproduce the nuance and immediacy of the instrument you need good treble capabilities in the speakers.

Given that you are listening from generous 14 feet away in a good-sized room (probably over 3000 cubic feet?), the treble energy will be heavily affected by the room acoustic. It may well be that the M2's cannot simply provide enough treble energy for the room. You may be overtaxing the M2's, resulting in a "muddiness" and "lack of precision" in the treble and mid-treble frequencies.

But before concluding that the M2's are not sufficiently capable, I would suggest you separate the L/R channels a bit more, say, up to 10-12 feet from each other. That will surely open up the soundstage and result in a better imaging as compared to your current setting; you will likely perceive more details. Alternatively, as others suggested, try a closer listening distance, say, 8 feet or so.

Finally, I think Sennheiser headphones (along with Grado and many other brands) are on the "bright" side sonically. Besides, no speakers placed far-field will match the shear amount of details you hear from a pair of headphones. In return, in-room speakers, of course, provide much more natural soundstage and ambience. Using headphone sound as "reference" can be misleading...

Sushi-

First, thanks for the advice I will separate l/r channels when I get home.

However, I have my doubts that this will improve clarity (as opposed to sound stage).

On a tangent - I think the senns are a good reference: they easily allow a/b comparisons (volume adjustment is unnecessary with a headphone amp). And they sound the same in all rooms. You can also bypass some exotic stuff in listening rooms by plugging in directly. I always bring them with me when listening to new gear.

I don't think the issue is whether the senns or grados are too bright, to some extent that is a matter of preference (and hearing loss - god forbid - they don't sound bright to me - am I going DEAF!), it sounds to me as though there is some clarity/articulation missing from my setup. With the senns you can almost hear the mechanics of the harpsichord; the full range of the string being plucked is audible. With my other set up, there is simply less to hear.

Anyway, my dissatisfaction with the current sound can't really be done away with by saying that the senns aren't comparable. As Duke Ellington said, "If it sounds good, it is good." and the senns sound much better right now.

I have listened to music through a Sennheiser SD580 and the only speaker IMO that comes close for ultimate detail and ambience is the Puppy 7. Mind you you don't feel the music like the Puppy 7. The Sennheiser can not create movement of air as a headphone. Secondly the Sennheiser SD580 has a wider frequency range 12hz-38KHz. The M2i is a bit smaller in range 70hz-22khz. The Sennheiser SD580 to ME does not image or soundstage as well as speaker. Your ears will be not be led to believe the stage is somewhere between 10-15 feet in front of you. Again this is my personal opinion.
In a room like that where you seemingly want the detail without the coloration of a full box speaker your barking up the wrong tree with the M2i. Your better of getting another brand in the likes of Revel M20, Dynaudio 1.3MK2, Proac Response 1S or PMC LB1. But all these brands go from $1700-$3000. The M2i at $255 can't be beat at that price point.

Saturn

ps:I do not state any of this in a negative way. Its just an opinion.

Okay- I'm the one who pulled my original post off base -forget about the senn comparison. My original query was to see if anyone could help me get more detail from the speakers I already own - the m2i.

Are the following likely to help?

1) use some vibrapods or other vibration isolating device to clean up the high end.

2) use the full metal bracket recently provided by Axiom and wall mount these - again to gain some articulation.

3) purchase a new amp with more power and a particular signature to help the high end.

4) equalizer?

5) toss in the towel and buy some really expensive stuff

6) all of the above in that order.

7) something else?

catfish,

Your point well taken re: headphones as reference. After all, if the Senn's give you a good sound, you should aim toward it by all means. It is just that, if you ever wish to aim at an "accurate" sound reproduction, your ultimate reference for the harpsichord sound should be the sound of live instrument, not the sound reproduced through the headphones.

I have to emphasize here that the sonic details/clarity and imaging/soundstaging are heavily interrelated to each other in stereo listening. Years ago, I had to place my Hales speakers temporarily in a less-than-optimal locations/geometry. Like in your case, L/R channel distance was much shorter than the listening distance. During that period, the Hales really sounded mediocre -- not only they didn't image properly, but all the musical details were gone. They sounded "muted" and "veiled," regardless of the small placement tweaks I tried. Simply unenjoyable. In the end, the only solution was to return the Hales to the original room placement. All the sudden, the music regained the pristine details, clarity and immediacy...

It does seem as though you're trying to fill a fairly large room with quite a small speaker.

If you do start looking at new speakers, the Energy Veritas 2.2 is a pretty amazing bookshelf speaker as well. It has an msrp of $1500, but occasionally you can find a pair as low as $800.

Though, having said that, I ended up buying a pair of M60ti's instead of the Veritas. Both had their +'s and -'s, but in the end the soundstage and detail of the M60's won me over.

Thanks Sushi-

You've got me motivated. I'm headed home to do some radical revision of the speaker placement. Move them apart and further from the rear wall to start. Then closer to the rear wall......

An interesting twist on this discussion is that if placement is very critical (and let's hope it is - so that I can get these m2is to sound really pretty) this doesn't bode well for wall mounting your front speakers - which I was thinking of doing.

Any suggestions on my 1 through 7 post?