Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater high cost of anamorphic lens

Nick,

I sit sat 10 feet from a 92" screen with a 720p projector (my theatre room is now obsolete in my old sold home ). Its not too big at all, I wouldn't sweat it man, I actually prefer it, You'll find yourself liking the bigger screen up close and wont want it any other way.

Nick, the Prismasonic screens are under $2000 ($1450 – $1870), which is why I am so interested in them. If they perform well, it’s an amazing price. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=991997

I wouldn’t rule the RS2 out just yet with only FL being the driver. The Planer does look like one heck of a projector, but it still can’t match either of the JVC’s with contrast. It would be nice if you and your dad could actually see one in operation. They use two completely separate technologies and throw up unique pictures. The Planer does have one heck of a video processor, which is a big plus. The RS2 has whacked colors that may be visually appealing, but if you are used to watching a calibrated image, they may drive you nuts.

Zarak – the FL numbers I wrote are recommendations that I got from a very smart fella, and they tend to follow main stream thinking and recommendations. But, they can be fudged some, I think. I do not watch sports, so I can not confirm with any personal experience if 23 FL is accurate. I actually seams pretty high to me, but again, I don’t watch sports. I can say that 12FL for movies is just about right.

Glancing at your numbers above, your math doesn’t look correct to me.

Figure total screen area in Square Feet. A 1.69 110” diagonal screen has 36 sq ft (96"X54")/144=36. multiply that by the desired FL you are shooting for – (36 X 23) = 828 total lumens.

Figuring 50% bulb loss, you would shoot for a “rated” output of 1656 if you are using a screen with a gain of 1.0. If you had a gain of 3, you’d want a projector with 552 lumens.

mdrew

I've just bookmarked this post. Very informative for my next projector! Thank you for this info.

I remember when mike was the one asking questions in here, he has since become a definitive source on Projector Technology on this forum.

mdrew,

We did go and look at the Epson UB pro and JVC RS1 at a dealer. Unfortunately they were on much too large of a screen. The Epson was on a 100" 16:9 screen and the JVC was on a 120" 16:9 screen. We only compared a couple of scenes of Pirates of the Caribbean Blu-ray on both and couldn't notice a difference between the two projectors because of this fact. The larger screens were taking away the punch of the images and there should have been a noticeable difference stepping up to the JVC. The front row of the theater with the Epson was 13' away from the 100" screen and we both though that height-wise the screen was too big at that distance. To see the whole screen vertically you have to move your eyes up and down a little bit, which we thought would get old very fast. So we were thinking that at 13' we wouldn't want more than a 90" screen. If his front row will be at 10 to 12 feet then 80" to 90" would be fine.

From my calculations earlier the 87" 16:9 screen with a gain of 1.3 would have around 11fL (after 500 hours with an anamorphic lens using your 50%+10% reduction of brightness) on the Planar. The size of the 2.35 screen with the same area would be 37"x87" which is a good size at 10', I think. He doesn't watch any sports programs so 11fL at worst should be great in a darkened room.

I just found an article that agrees with you saying that you need 12fL to 20fL in a darkened room to have a nice punch to the image. But, it also said not to go more than 1.3 gain since you will start to introduce artifacts.

Here are a few excerpts:

"A screen is a passive device and can't literally amplify anything. It produces "gain" by focusing the light toward the center of the viewing area, resulting in a brighter image on- or slightly off-axis, but a dimmer image as you move further to the sides. High gain screens can also have hot spots; that is, they look obviously brighter in the center than at the sides. The higher the gain, the more pronounced the hot spot."

"High gain screens (over 2.0) can be useful if you insist on a very large screen, or have a projector with a very low light output. While some users swear by such screens, we generally don't recommend them. They are skewed toward brighter images, often sacrificing other important characteristics like color purity, brightness uniformity, and resolution."

"Different installations will have different requirements, but for most current home theater projectors you'll avoid serious problems if you stick with a screen width of 80 to 87-inches, with smaller screens giving you extra reserve to allow for lamp wear. If the projector has good blacks, we recommend a screen with modest gain (1.3 or so), particularly at the higher end of that size range. Very bright projectors may, however, provide better results with a screen gain of 1.0—or even a bit lower."

link: http://www.hometheatermag.com/advicefromtheexperts/707choosingscreen/


The last line, "Very bright projectors may, however, provide better results with a screen gain of 1.0—or even a bit lower.", we could instead keep the 1.3 gain and just go with a little larger screen say 100" 16:9. Also, maybe your figure of a reduction of 50% brightness after 500 hours on the lamps varies from brand to brand and may be less. In this case you could increase the screen size as further if it is say 30% or 40% instead, although this is probably hard to find published anywhere for a specific projector. Sorry for the long-winded responses, but I drank an energy drink earlier and still feel the caffeine (and whatever else they put in there) pumping through my veins.

- Nick

Hutzal,

Like I just mentioned, 10' from a 90" screen is about as large as I would want to go. My dad agreed with me on this and thought maybe a little smaller would be better. But, this as with anything else is just a matter of taste.

- Nick

Nick, Those are all good points, but keep in mind the date the article was written. Stewart has come out with a newer version of the Firehawk (G3 which I own), as well as Da-light's High Power and the Prismasonic is completely new. Some folks swear by high gain, while others hate them.

I would spend some time on the screen boards at AVS before committing to anything. Articles can be of value, but should always be taken with a grain of salt. The author has his/her opinion just like any one of us. Sometimes their opinion stinks just as bad.

I suggested looking at the different projectors as you have LCOS and DLP on your shopping list. Both are very different with very different looking pictures. The Epson is LCD, which is fairly close to LCOS so I doubt you’d see the differences I’m suggesting.

Screen size is very personal. No one but the viewer can determine what to go with. I can say that I find it more difficult to move my eyes up / down more so that right / left. Keeping this in mind, find a 16.9 size that is vertically pleasing to you, and then stick with that height for a 2.35 screen. I sit 12’ away from a 96” wide screen. At first I thought it might be too big, but not anymore. I think it’s perfect.

I am considering the RS1X for myself right now, although the Planer, RS2, S15, BenQ2000 and Sony VW 200 all look like great projectors too. I have ruled out all LCD as I don’t want to deal with un-sealed light paths anymore. Friggin dust blobs are a PITA to clean. The VW200 is way too much money, so that’s out of running…. The Planer looks like THE projector to get right now, but it’s fairly new and I’m a wee bit hesitant to give it a try. The JVC’s have color issues that require an external VP with CMS to correct (the RS2 more so than the RS1x). Good thing I’m in no hurry and can take a back seat and see how things shake out for a few months.

Oh- don’t forget projector noise. I am VERY sensitive to noise. The projector is directly above me I can darn near reach it sitting down. If you or your dad are sensitive, you need to keep that in mind when shopping.

Rob, I’m hardly a definitive source. I’m just learning like everyone else. And I certainly hope folks just take what I write down as ‘recommendations for further thought’, and don’t just go out and spend money based on what I say. All this stuff is based on personal tastes and beliefs. Everyone should be aware of the things to consider and go out and find the answer / solution that works best for them.

mdrew,


I read a review at ultimateavmag about the Planar that gave me a few concerns. It sounds like it may be a little buggy.

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/videoprojectors/608plan/index3.html

The first unit they tested kept forgetting the settings even after trying several different fixes. Also, it didn't pass above white and blacker than black, which will make it a little harder to setup correctly. They are supposed to fix this with a firmware update though.

excerpts:

"One important point is that the Planar will not currently reproduce above-white or below-black. This did not appear to compromise the subjective quality of the projector, but it does make setting the brightness and contrast more difficult. Planar has informed me that a fix is in the works, and a firmware update will be issued for existing units.

I ran into another problem when I rechecked the other inputs just before deadline. Apart from HDMI 1, none of the HDMI or component inputs worked properly. HDMI 2 displayed a bright-green image, and both component inputs were distinctly purple. This could not be corrected with any Color Space setting. The most puzzling thing was that the Component 1 input looked fine when I used it to measure component resolution early in the review, but when I tried it at the end, it was definitely not fine.

After consulting with Planar, it became clear that the problem was related to saving setups into memory. When I did a factory reset from the user menu, the problem cleared up, but when I then saved some settings in memory for the HDMI 1 input, it reappeared on the other inputs. (I had performed my resolution tests on the component input before saving any settings, which is why that input looked okay early on.)

Next, the company rep suggested that I perform a factory reset from the service menu, which seemed to clear up the problem altogether—all inputs looked right even after saving something in a user memory. Just to be sure, Planar shipped me a second sample with the same firmware, which did not exhibit the problem."

I bet these issues will be taken care of by fall so they are probably non-issues. The differences in black-level and contrast ratio are probably only noticeable in side by side comparisons against the JVC. I read another review of the Planar in Home Theater Magazine, where the reviewer said that he would replace his reference JVC RS1 with the Planar if they fixed the clipping of the above whites and below blacks (which they are supposed to do very soon). So, I am strongly leaning toward the Planar. I just need to take my dad to go look at one of these suckers in action.

I am going to have to research the new developments in anamorphic lens' and high gain screens like you suggested. The only problem is that dealers that carry projectors usually have neither of them so it makes it a little more difficult to do so. So, you can't see the differences with your own eyes. But, like you said we can keep searching on avsforum and roughly get an idea.

If you are sensitive to projector noise then you can get one of those enclosures with a window in the front to box-in your projector. You have to do some ventilation so that your bulb doesn't overheat though. I have no idea how much they cost and what other problems you run into,but I've seen them in magazines a couple of times. Also, if you have a manual sled anamorphic lens then it may be impossible to flip the lens in and out of the path of the light by going this route.

- Nick

A hush box isn’t much of an option for me. I have thought about building one, and will if I decide to go with a projector that’s too noisy. They just make it difficult if you are a tweaker, like me.

I just stumbled onto a pretty good thread at AVS regarding lumens. It looks as if 20 FL is the preferred by most. It’s worth reading if you’re waiting for paint to dry, like I happen to be doing right now……dam I hate painting…..

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=984992&highlight=poll

The Planer will definitely have bugs to kill. I’ve been reading up on them lately and they seam to be pretty responsive with addressing bugs, unlike many other companies.

mdrew,

Like many pointed out in the thread, it is hard for people to know exactly what they have unless they are going off of the manufacturer's specs which probably don't mean a whole lot. Then you factor in that after you put some hours on your bulb you lose brightness. How much brightness varies probably from 20% up to 50% like you said your projector had. So, I guess the best way to set up your projector is to get some hours on your bulb and have someone measure what you have on a 1.0 gain screen in economy mode. Before you have them measure it you should probably have it in movie or standard mode (just not dynamic) and have the brightness and contrast set to zero to keep flexibility. Since a 1.0 gain screen can be found for $100 in a bulk roll then it is an inexpensive part just to test with. Now calculate what gain you would need to get up to 12fL in your economy mode. If it is the 1.0 gain screen then you are done and can just make a frame. If not then you can get the 2.0 gain, or whatever you need, to get to the 12fL in economy mode. Now, you have flexability since projectors always have at least an ecomomy mode and standard or normal mode. The normal mode would get you closer to 20fL in in your particular setup. Some projectors even have three lamp settings: economy, normal and high which would give you even more flexibility.

Now, I just need to research if the new higher gain screens will introduce any artifacts. I'm also betting that a curved screen would help reduce these artifacts.

- Nick