Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater EP 500 vs 350

hey folks...been a while.

I picked up a EP500 as part of my home theatre package last year and for the most part have been enjoying my Axiom speakers immensely. EXCEPT the sub...it's just too much. When I turn it up just barely above the minimum my walls/windows start to rattle and shake...young babies 3 doors down start to cry...dogs bark -- you get the idea.

I'm thinking of trading it in for a EP350 & am looking for opinions on the idea. I'm also going to get a set of M80s and possibly a W150 (already have M50s, QS8s and a VP150). Receiver is a Denon 3808ci, my new family room is 17x13x8 and we like to listen to classic rock REALLY REALLY loud at times.

appreciate any ideas you all might have!

Jim, I wonder if something is not right with it. No matter how big a sub is you should be able to adjust it to the room. My first HT set up was in a 10x10 room and I had a Hsu VTF3 MkII in it, but was able to dial it down so it never overpowered everything.

Is the gain set too high in the receiver?

I spent many many hours tweaking the sub/receiver and it's still overpowering when we listen to music. For movie and general TV viewing it's okay.

Unfortunately I have no leeway in the placement of the sub (it has to go THERE!) and that may be compounding the problem.

Sub placement may be an issue. Big subs like the EP500 are difficult to tuck away some where.

How 'bout listening to music without the sub?

Just trying to throw out suggestions.

Have you calibrated your system with a SPL meter and test disk. If you can’t get the sub to calibrate with your mains so that the SPL stays reasonably close then you could have a problem with the subs volume control or room acoustics. If the volume control seems to work and your sub is calibrated and you still have the same problem because of spikes on certain frequencies the room is likely the issue. Even if you can’t permanently move the sub you might want to move it temporarily and check the sound. If the problem goes away then the placement is defiantly the culprit. In this case I don’t see how changing subs will help unless the offending frequency is very low >25 hz where the EP500 reaches more powerfully than the EP350. Room treatments might help dampen this down a bit. Blocking the subs port may also dampen the offending frequency. Also remember that the sub can go behind you (where mine is) or even by the couch as an end table if you have the room for either.

Just a few more suggestions,
Dean

Jim, as the previous replies have indicated, any sub can be calibrated so that it doesn't overwhelm the other speakers. Your 3808 should be able to automatically calibrate the levels very well, or alternatively you can do it manually with the aid of a separate external SPL meter or(last choice)by ear. If you turn both the level control on the sub and the sub output on the 3808 down low, the level of the sub simply has to be low. One point that's also helpful is to adjust the trim control on the EP500 to half or even full, which may give a better balance in your size room if it happens to be set "flat" now.

All this advice is good, but I wouldn't totally rule out the possibility of a faulty volume knob. I remember helping Tharkun calibrate his dual EP600s and one of then had a very touchy volume knob. The slightest nudge would move if from too quiet to too loud.

I would point out that if it's a placement issue because of the size, the EP350 is in the exact same cabinet.

maybe he needs and ep400?

I am one of those insane people that has FOUR subs, including (two) EP 500's in a room 28' x 12'. Of course I started out with two subs a few years ago and added the EP 500s a short time ago.
I did this to smooth out some room anomalies but not necessarily to add more SPL. Like Jim Logan, I was very limited to my placement options as well, but once I did my volume AND LFE balancing and made sure phase was in order everything turned out fine and it is not overpowering despite the power available to me.

I have found there are a couple of options out there to improve subwoofer sound, one expensive and one not. The ideal is a Velodyne SMS-1 digital drive equalizer system (which I have) although not perfect, gives you considerable flexibility in your subwoofer set-up options that you don't have by itself. Unfortunately, it is $600 bucks. The other option is a GRAMMA platform which is primarily used for large musical instrument speaker cabinets to get them off the floor in not so good acoustic environments. It is made by Auralex Acoustics and is available in a lot of musical instrument stores for between $50-60 dollars. Depending on whether the sub is on a bare floor or carpet, it helps take away some of the boominess. The EP500
tends to be a more linear sub than most, so the problems that are being discussed really should be correctable one way or another.

I bet that is the problem here as well. The gain control on the EP subs are very sensitive to signal output from many high current receivers. I suggest contacting Axiom service who will likely have the amp returned for a small tweak to make the gain control less sensitive. My brother had the same issue with his EP600/Outlaw 990 recently.

How about the settings in the receiver? If he had LFE + Mains wouldn't that possibly contribute to this? Ensure the setting is just LFE. Dropping down to a 350 I don't think would make much improvement. The reviews from Sirquack has the 350's looking really impressive.

I would try to go pure direct for music which would cancel the sub. The M50's to me put out loads of bass compared to the other models. I think the mid driver on the other models even out the sound spectrum so everything just gels and nothing stands out too much.

One last thing, going from M50 to M80 should be a fairly noticeable difference in sound. With your classic rock as choice, you may have more CD's that sound better on the 50's.

Good luck.

What's $600 when one pays $2500 for the subs? Might the BFD @ ~$150 do the same job?

Didn't Ian say something though to not use sub equalization? I thought I saw it in one of his multiple sub videos.

Ascension:

I believe you are right about Ian's attitude towards sub-eq, BUT Velodyne has had this system for a few years now both as a separate unit and built-in to their top-of-the line subwoofers, and anyway, most of the room correction systems in recent AVR's don't do much for the deep bass. The SMS-1 not only covers both parametric AND graphic eq but there are many other features including much more flexible cross-over and phase adjustments along with having both automatic and manual room response calibration adjustments etc. for FLAT response and multiple programmable settings depending on the source. It gives you more opportunity to create a better blend between your sub(s)and other speakers.

It should be noted though that in Ian's video he admits the SPL meter to set level settings rolls off below 50hz so the levels won't be accurate. The SMS-1 enables you to boost or cut in those frequency ranges(provided your sub can handle it).

It is just a tool which can be adjusted for personal taste but I find it well worth the money in formulating a sound that I otherwise wouldn't be able to create without it.

As I understand Ian's views, he believes equalization with single subs does more harm than good since it only achieves desired response in a very narrow listening area at the sweet spot and usually makes matters worse by exaggerating nodes outside of that area. He does suggest using modest equalization with multiple subs since there is far less likelihood of creating new problems outside of the measurement spot.

In any event its important to remember that equalization does introduce ringing artifacts so it should be used sparingly and only to reduce peaks unless you have a very powerful amplifier.

I have them both but use neither with my quad subs. The BFD can do the same job however it does not have the graphical display of the SMS thereby making the SMS far easier to use. Also the SMS has a powerful set of tools in its menu which are useful for dialling in phase, filters etc. Its well worth the price IMO.

What are ringing artifacts? I've heard of it mentioned a few times and I'm done pretending I know what it means.

You fail at google.

I sure did.

Thanks for the link.

And now you know that wikipedia is written by nerds.

Seriously, the obscure electrical one is first?!

The Gibbs phenomenon link on that wikipedia page is far more informative and mathy.

Good links. To make a long story short for purposes of this discussion, its distortion introduced by the filters used in parametric equalization. It delays the signal which manifests itself in a longer impulse response. In subs it causes the bass to hang around or resonate longer. The flatter FR from equalizing doesn't come free so its better to use it sparingly.

As Jakeman said, I think there may be something wrong with the sub. My 2nd EP600 sub had an issue that even on the lowest setting, it was so loud I could not calibrate to the same SPL as my speakers. They replaced the amp and it is fine now.

I currently have a 600 and 2 350's, and if calibrated correctly, they will work fine and help even out frequency response across the room.

As Ken mentioned, the 350 box is the same size as the 500, so it will not help if space is an issue.

AKA spouses.

Ok, I didn't know that. Thanks for the info casey. It sounds like one of those things to mess around with before getting a smooth response. I've always heard about the sms-1, I just didn't know that it did more than equalization of the sub. When I get my two subs and it doesn't have a smooth response within my room, I might try that.