Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Tell me what you think of this system:

Panasonic SA-XR25K - $239 shipped or Yamaha HTR-5550 - $235 shipped

Panasonic DVD-F85S CD/DVD player - $148 shipped

Axiom m2ti speakers: $255

Velodyne VX-10 sub: $150 shipped

Anything you would change and still keep it in the same pricerange?

Thanks

Make sure the speakers are M2i's not M2ti (different tweeter is used). Personally I would go for the HTR-5550 - no question. I can't say anything about the DVD/CD Player, but for not too much more you can pick up used DVD-A / SVCD Players. Velodyne is good (I don't know about that particular model, but it shouldn't be too bad). If it were my money, I'd spend a bit more to get a pretty nice sub, SVS has some budget subwoofers for around 4-500 which should be good to look at.

What is SVCD and DVD-A?

I think telling someone who was looking at $150 for a sub budget to look at SVS is a little bit much =)

Yeah I'm 15 and don't have that much money to throw around, unfortunately.

For a first system, that sounds like a good list of pieces.

Yea - its surely a nice system; just make sure the Axiom's you get are the M2i's and not the M2ti's (which have an inferior tweeter). Oh, and make sure you get that Yammy; It's a great value.

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What is SVCD and DVD-A?

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but for not too much more you can pick up used DVD-A / SVCD Players

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Bah - I was apparently too tired (and thus incredibly wrong ) when I said that - I meant SACD and DVD-A player. SACD and DVD-A are similar to audio CD's in that they are a digital storage medium for audio, but after that they are completely different. SACD and DVD-A deliver aproximately the same quality, but do it in very different ways. To my knowledge SACD uses a 1 Bit stream that is sampled at 2.8224MHz (even in multi-channel configurations) that can give up to 500 kHz upper extension and 100 kHz without any roll-off, and DVD-A uses a 24 bit stream in 96 kHz (6 channels) and 192 kHz (stereo) that can extend to about 96 kHz and 48 kHz, respectively (theoretically, although in practice, the inefficiencies of the Nyquist Theorem makes it around 86 and 40, which are still incredible). Both of them create a more complete image of the sound (with a hugely wider frequency spectrum and dynamic range), although most people can't really tell the difference with double-blind testing even if all of the equipment and speakers is of fairly high quality.

SVCD on the other hand is Super Video CD - an important thing to have if you want to make your own movies but don't have a DVD-R drive on your computer. SVCD / VCD are even more popular than VHS in Asia to my knowledge. (But obviously DVD has a higher resolution and supports DTS, DD, and 2 ch PCM streams, whereas VCD and SVCD only support 2 ch).

Oh...I should have said this...

Get this player: Pioneer 563a, it's a universal player that will play CD's, DVD's, DVD-A's and SACD's. You can get it at Best Buy for around $175.

So from the replies so far...

Yamaha HTR-5550 - $235 shipped
Pioneer 563a Universal player - $179 shipped (Best Buy)
Axiom M2i speakers: $255
Velodyne VX-10 sub: $150 shipped

Wow spliffnme, I didn't know that you could buy and SACD/DVD-A Player for that cheap now adays. Very good find!

For the extra 20 bucks i dunno why you dont just get the M3's

SACD (not SVCD) stands for super audio compact disc. Basically just a better quality format. DVD-A Is just music on a DVD because DVD's can hold much more info than cd's they are able to use a higher quality format. dont worry about these because i highly doubt it will matter to you.


To be completely honest, i want to steer you away from the recievers and twards an affordable integrated amp because i know it will give you better sound. And i know for me anyway, id be much happier knowing that i wouldnt want to upgrade in a little while and knowing that i simply got a better peice of equipment. I dont know if remote control is really important to you or not but there are alot better products out there then those recievers that can be had for the same prices. But you will most likely have to sacrafice remote control.

New, you can get the Cambridge Audio A300 like i suggested in the other thread. Its $200 A300 Integrated amp

Used you have many choices. Vintage stuff is usually pretty cheap and built well. As well as good deal on used stuff. generally audiophiles take great care of their gear (me anyway) so dont be afraid of buying something used. Look around Audiogon and see what you can find. There are alot of great deals to be had.

If you have a costco in your area, drop by there. Sometimes they have halfway decent gear and they have the best prices around.

For a cd player, cheap, maybe check out the Toshiba SD-k710. this is my dvd player and it plays cds pretty well. sound quality isint bad. DOwnside is that it beeps everytime you do something. but... anyhow, its a good peice of gear for cheap. we paid around 140 i think at costco.. i found it online cheap here: Toshiba DVDp

Basically, i think that if you shop around and buy used or maybe sacrifice a remote or something you can get alot better sound and quality.

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For the extra 20 bucks i dunno why you dont just get the M3's

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When using the speakers in conjunction with a sub, the M2i's will be better, as they are much flatter and provide a better overall response curve than the M3ti's after about 80 Hz.

Review of M2i's which has a M3ti comparison

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Sound

I was stunned the first time I played Bruce Springsteen’s The Ghost of Tom Joad [Columbia 67484] over the M2is. These speakers are clean and precise without chestiness or boxy colorations. Bass is obviously lacking, something I’ll expand on later, but the image hovered in space solidly, and the level of detail was inspiring. Audiophiles pay big bucks for this type of sound, and this speaker was delivering it at a fraction of the price. What’s more, except for the bass, the M2i sounds even better than the M3Ti SE to my ears.

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Family feud

The M3Ti SE, with its 6 1/2" woofer, goes deeper, and as a result is a little weightier-sounding than the M2i. Because of that, it’s actually closer to being the perfect all-around, low-priced bookshelf-sized speaker because it stands alone easier. Its caveat is that it’s not as neutral as the M2i. The mids of the M3Ti SE are a bit more relaxed, and that means that voices don’t jump out at you quite as much. The overall presentation from the M3Ti SEs tends to be a little on the warmer side, while the M2i is a little leaner. That’s precisely why Axiom says that the M2i has more in common with the $400 M22Ti SE than with the M3Ti SE.

Both the M2i and M3Ti SE play to about the same volume level, but when the M3Ti SE starts getting taxed, the woofer loses control and some port chuffing can be heard. It tries to do more down low, and its failure is more obvious. The way the M2i handles deep bass is by simply not doing it. Still, it gets stressed when played too loud, which manifests itself as some hardness and congestion in the upper bass and lower mids. In the end, each speaker can only play so loud, which is reasonably loud in even moderate-sized rooms, but the effects of the speakers hitting their limits are a little different.

Which speaker you should choose will depend on various factors. As I mentioned, the M3Ti SE and M22Ti SE are rather full-sounding speakers. If you are not a bass freak, you can easily get away with no subwoofer with either of these speakers. The M2i, though, is light down low and falls into the just acceptable range of bass performance. That makes for the next biggest difference.

When I played the robust-sounding The Ghost of Tom Joad I was surprised at just how rich and vibrant the M2is sounded. However, when I played something a little less forward and full, they sounded a bit thin. A good example of this is Ani DiFranco's Like I Said (Songs 1990-91), due to its inherently lightweight sound and excessive high frequencies.

All the Axiom bookshelf speakers can benefit from subwoofer reinforcement; it’s the M2i that begs to be mated with one -- and not just because it has the least extension. The way it rolls off in the bass seems to make it the easiest to match to a sub, and this highlights its prime advantage over the other two Axiom speakers if you choose to go that route.

Conclusion

Axiom has scored big-time with the M2i. It's every bit the winner the M3Ti SE is, but in a different way. The M3Ti SE set something of a standard for producing stellar overall sound at a reasonable price, and that fact still remains. The M2i doesn’t have the bass to be an all-around high performer, but within its limits, it achieves a remarkable level of neutrality for an insanely low price. This is an amazing little speaker that makes its mark by doing what it can do well and then leaving the rest (deep bass) to something else.

I suspect that the M3Ti SE will still be favored by those wanting a great standalone speaker and not wanting to be bothered with a sub. The M2i, though, will be the company’s shining star for someone who wants more of a monitor-type speaker -- one that's extremely revealing and neutral -- and who can forgo any real bass or, preferably, will match the M2i with a subwoofer. The latter option makes the M2i part of an upgradeable system that may well result in extraordinary full-range sound at a very affordable price.

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M3ti's Frequency response graph in the "Listening Window" (15 degrees off axis both vertical and horizontal and on axis averaged.)

Axiom M2i in "Listening Window."

Axiom M22ti in "Listening Window" for comparison.

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SACD (not SVCD) stands for super audio compact disc.

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Heh yea, as I said in my earlier post - I was on crack or too tired to make such a mistake .

Josh, everybody, including me, might have little quibbles with your picks, but there's nothing you should change. The F85 player in particular is a terrific bargain(don't worry about SACD). On the receiver choice I'd lean slightly to the 5550. Enjoy.

well, i spent like half an hour putting that post together, i wouldnt have mentioned it if i knew you already did while i was making the reply.

The cd player you chose im sure is just fine, but really, if you are set on buying a reciever get the yamaha instead of the panasonic.

Even though id ditch em both all together and get the cambridge.. but thats just me.

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(don't worry about SACD)

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That is another way of looking at things because most all SACD's have a standard density Redbook CD layer on the inside ("Hybrid Disks"). DVD-A and SACD are pretty hard to find at the moment, but I'd wager that in a few years, they will be fairly popular.

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well, i spent like half an hour putting that post together, i wouldnt have mentioned it if i knew you already did while i was making the reply.

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Yea - heh - It was a nice, informative post you did.

Thanks for all the replies.

If I went to that Cambridge AMP, asside from loosing radio, would anything else be affected? I'm mainly worried because in the future I may want to add a center and two rears to go to a full 5.1 setup.

Thanks
Josh

well you wouldnt have a radio or remote, or the ablility to have a home theater setup later on down the road if you wanted.

But in return you will get a better quality better sounding product.

So in theory a home theater won't sound as good as a stereo with something like the a300?

Josh, both in theory and in practice, unless you have a very large listening room, the 5550 should have plenty of clean power for your M2s. Note that it has bass management at 90Hz which would work well with the M2s and VX-10. Also, as you've mentioned, you'll be able to add surround speakers later when the time comes.

Could you please explain what a receiver does apart from having a remote and radio, as opposed to an amplifier? Most DVD players have Dolby DTS & Dolby Digital, so if that was playing the DVD, wouldn't you still be able to have a 5.1, or whatever, setup using just an amplifier such as the A300?

Is the receiver just for plugging a bunch of stuff into: for example if I have an XBox, Gamecube, and DVD/CD Player plugged into the receiver it will do them all, whereas with an amplifier I would have to plug in the XBox to use it, then unplug that and plug in the DVD player to use it etc?

And I'm also guessing you can't have an amo hooked up to your speakers, and in turn hooked up to a receiver in order to gain the better sound quality of the amp, with the features of the receiver?

Basically I just don't understand why you can't use a receiver with a home theater sort of setup. If I had a 2.1 setup, then would I be able to have it set up with my TV, or still no?

Josh

Hi Josh

A receiver combines the functions of various components into a single unit. Most receivers have an amplifier section. A stereo receiver has a 2 channel amplifier. A home theater receiver may have 5, 6 or 7 channels of amplification. A receiver also has a processor or preamp section. This allows you to connect and select sources and may include processing for instance DSP modes (digital sound processing), dolby decoding, etc. Most receivers also include a tuner for FM or FM and AM. This source is integrated into the unit. Onkyo and probably a few others have receivers with integrated DVD/CD players.

Receivers are convenient in that they save the user the trouble and expense of purchasing separate components. However, dedicated single function components are often of substantially higher quality than the integrated components used in a receiver.

A bit more. Yes, you can hook up an amp or a bunch of amps to your receiver, if your receiver has pre-outs. These pre outs, provide unamplified signals which you can transmit by cables to an outboard amplifier(s). Bypassing the onboard amp(s) of your receiver allows you to use your receiver as a preamp or processor.

I have a Sony STRDB 1070, 6 channel receiver rated at 100 watts per channel. No way does this thing's amplifier section put out that kind of power. The processing section is pretty good though. So, I picked up 3 Onkyo M282 2 channel amps, connected to the receiver from the receiver's pre-outs.

I have an Onkyo TXDS 797 receiver which I use as a processor. I use a 2 channel Onkyo M504 amp for the front L/R channels, and an Anthem PVA 5 amp with 5 channels for the center, side surrounds and back surrounds.

I'll try to answer your questions paragraph by paragraph.

1.
A receiver will generally offer many more features than an integrated amplifier. Here are some of the main things a receiver has that an integrated amp doesn't: video switching, at least 5 channels of amplification, multiple digital inputs (coax and optical), built in analog-digital and digital-analog converters, surround sound decoders (DD, DTS), and AM/FM tuner.

The A300 only has a 2 channel amplifier, so even if you bought a DVD player with a built-in decoder, you'd only have enough amplifiers for 2 channels. You'd have to buy more amps to drive the other channels.

2.
Did you mean amplifier, or integrated amplifier? A separate amp has only one input per channel, and is almost always used in conjunction with a pre-amp or receiver. So you'd plug all your devices into the pre-amp or receiver, and then plug your speakers into the amp.

3.
As mentioned above, yes, you CAN buy an amp AND a receiver and use them together. As long as the receiver has a pre-amp out feature (most do these days), you can connect a separate amplifier or multiple amplifiers directly to the receiver and bypass its built-in amps.

4.
Yes, you CAN use a receiver for home theater. Almost everyone does this as it's the easiest and most strightforward way to do it. If you choose to go with a 2.1 setup, you can have your TV connected to it by piping sound from it into one of the inputs on your integrated amp.


I'm of the opinion that you should go with a receiver, as it gives you many more options for your money.

Hey Josh784,

I agree with 2X6 in that a receiver will give you the best bang for your money. With a limited budget, going with a receiver allows you more flexibility to move up to a 5.1 set-up sooner than later. You'll already have the channels needed to drive a center and surround speakers once you have more money to add them. Once you get more money you could slowly upgrade to better components and speakers.

Yea - I agree with the reciever crowd as well because without that it will be hard to use that sub. If you wanted just stereo, the best would be to get a pre-amp with some kind of bass management (you need that to cross over your M2i's and Sub) and a power amp or 2 (mono or stereo).

In my opinion that HTR-5550 will have more than enough power especially considering you won't be using it for bass, as you will use its crossover.

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Josh, both in theory and in practice, unless you have a very large listening room, the 5550 should have plenty of clean power for your M2s. Note that it has bass management at 90Hz which would work well with the M2s and VX-10. Also, as you've mentioned, you'll be able to add surround speakers later when the time comes.

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JohnK hit the nail exactly on the head. And in addition, I'd say that in a larger room, he'd want bigger speakers (like say M60's or M80's as they have more drivers and a bigger cabinet to increase bass). I think for what you want, the best would be the M2i's with the Yamaha reciever and a sub that can be upgraded to surround sound later.

When you get this, try these 3 settings:
Main: Large | Bass: Both
Main: Small | Bass: Both
Main: Small | Bass: SWFR

I'd imagine that the middle one would be the best sounding or maybe the bottom one, as the bookshelves won't have to do much bass at all. But try all 3 settings.

josh,whatever you choose for a receiver,you might want to go with a matching dvd player just so you dont have to fumble 2 remotes.i dont know if yamaha makes one in your price range, but it might be worth a look.....good luck....ron

I think Yamaha's cheapest CD player is $300 which is considerably more than I'm wanting to pay.

Thanks for the suggestion though.

Josh

Let us know how it all turns out - as it should work pretty well.

I'll definately do that