Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Need help setting up Denon 2809ci and ep350

So as some of you know I received my architectural on wall w22s w150 and ep350 last week. I just got the receiver last night and began to test the system. I ran audyssey. It set the distances pretty close to reality. It set the crossover to 90 for the L/R and 80 for the center. 90 for the sub as well.
It set the LF at -1.5db C at -2Db RF at -3.5 and the sub
the at +12db. I had the crossover on the sub set to the 120 and volume at about 9 o'clock. The speakers sound great to me, but the sub is lacking. It appears to produce a little rumble, but definately no punchy base. It seems like much of the punchy base is being produced by the spakers. I have not done anything with SPL since I do not have one and do not know how to use one. I would imaging however that I should be able to get more from the sub with some simple fixes. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Also I did move the sub around to a few different spots with no noticable improvement.

Turn Audyssey off which I have done (and many others have) because I didn't like how it set my subwoofer, it sounded flat and lifeless. Other than that, what is this size of your room? I know there's not much difference between the 350 and 500 but my room is 20 x 24 and I have my 500 volume at 7 o'clock. I would suggest setting your subwoofer to bypass, unless 120 is considered bypass and your crossover on your receiver to 80 Hz, also make sure that your speakers are set to "small" to send the LFE to your 350.

Listener:

Don't get too worried yet, this usually ends up being a connection issue.

First thing to check: Make sure you have the sub RCA cable connected to the sub pre-out connection on the back of the Denon. There are a couple of other RCA outs on the back that look very similar and are easy to confuse.

Second: Check the "gain" knob on the back of the 350. You want it 1/3 or 1/2 of the way to full volume to start with. (at that setting, your receiver shouldn't need to be anywhere near +12, but don't worry about correcting that until you have more bass coming out of the 350)

Third: Crossovers and Receiver Speaker Setup. The most common settings here are to cross over the fronts and center at 60 or 80. (I believe more people do 60). In your speaker configuration, set your front & center speakers to small, and set the sub to "LFE + Mains" (you can change this back to just LFE later if you like, but for purposes of making sure things are working, I'd start here).

Finally, if none of these change the output from the sub, perform a simple test to ensure you are getting sound from the sub only. Do this by entering the speaker setup menu and going into channel level. Choose "Manual" and then go to the subwoofer channel. Make sure that you are hearing a low (probably loud if still set at +12) rumble from the 350. If you do not, then you have either a bad speaker or still have a connection/configuration problem. If you try all of the above and still don't have strong bass during this step, something more serious is wrong.

Try this and let us know if it improves, if not, others will probably offer additional ideas.

Jason

Gotta disagree with you there, Jason... you don't want the volume on an EP350 at 50%!! That'l blow you out of the water! You also don't want the receiver at +12. I'm guessing that there's something wrong with the connection or possibly something wrong with the sub itself. One way to test it is to hook the sub directly to a CD player without any other speakers and see if it produces sound. I'd advise keeping it fairly turned down at the beginning of that test, though...

Well Ken, it is true that I nearly blew my head off doing something similar when assessing a similar problem in my room. Apparently I didn't learn much.

In my defense, I just wanted to be sure it was on high enough to rule out all of the problems before going further. Ken's right that you won't need it this high long term. Run through the steps above and let us know what more information you're able to come up with and we'll go from there.

Jason

The front speakers are all set to small. 120 is considered bypass. RCA is connected correctly. I tried the manual test and I am getting a rumble out of the sub it isn't quiet, but i certainly isn't earth shattering.Sounds like a train going by in the distance. I turned off Audyssey set LFE+Main and changed the crossover to 80 for everything. This seems to improve things but I still have the receiver set to +12 for the sub and the volume on the sub about a third of the say up to achieve this. Should I really by using the LFE+MAINS? Keep in mind these are the architectural w22 and w150s. It does appear to help, but I'm worried that it's simply because the fronts are now producing more bass. It actually seems like the center is the one producing most of the bass eventhough it is set to -2db now while the left and right are at 0

oh yeah my room is 25x20x8

I would first turn off the auddessy's auto equilization. (Make sure your speakers are set to small, subwoofer set to yes, and sub set to LFE+Mains or LFE Norm.

The +12 gain on your receiver is way too much. Set that gain to 0.

Now slowly incraese the gain on the subwoofer, try turning up the gain until it rumbles (even if you have to go to half to 3/4 way). Post back and tell us if there is any rumble at all.

You can also try setting the gain on the sub to the half way point and increase the gain on the receiver starting from 0 and working your way up. Essentially by increasing the subwoofer gain on the receiver, you are upping the voltage being sent to the sub, hence increasing its sensitivity.

I just tried this. There is a rumble. I have the volume set at 50% to achieve this however. Also it seems like even when there is no music playing the sub hums. Perhaps my expectations are simply unrealistic. I just remember when i heard a polk system at tweeter once (Watched transporter) during explosions and gunshots you could almost feel them.

If you start getting some good bass I would then tinker with each of the gains (sub receiver gain, gain on sub) so they are not set to any extremes like +6 and 3/4 gain for example.

Contact Axiom. It sounds like there's something wrong with the sub.

3/4 is way too high for an EP350, even in that room. Mine's barely up to 1/4.

Sorry if I missed it, did you turn off Audyssey as well? To me, this still sounds like something is wrong. You should definitely get that palpable feeling of bass on explosions. If you've checked all of the above and still aren't happy with the bass levels, you probably need to start looking more seriously at sub positioning.

If you haven't done this yet, make sure to do the Subwoofer Crawl. While I realize this process is frustrating, successful subwoofer calibration is one of the hardest pieces to get right in your room, so just keep at it for a bit while we rule out all potential issues. When I first got my 600, I was initially very disappointed until I found out that my original position caused a 15 dB null (drop in bass) in my main listening position. The null was at a frequency that made the effects of most HT explosions very sub-par. Once I moved it to a new position, it was like someone breathed new life into the sub. You might have the same problem.

Jason

YIKES!! That is a major null.

You guys have pretty much covered everything for Listener, but it does sound like he has a bt of a ground loop hum going on as he mentioned a hum when nothing playing. To help eliminate the hum I would try to plug the sub into a different outlet(or the same outlet if not already in a different one) as the rest of the system.

Yes i did turn Audyssey off. So far the bass improved somewhat, but I'm not sure if this is due to the sub or the fact i'm running LFE+MAINS. I will do the sub crawl when i get a chance for now i had to go to work. It does sound like something isn't right since I have to turn the volume up so far in order to get decent bass on music. Once I do this I get decent bass on music, but still not enough for HT.

What is your sw receiver gain set at on the denon? The subwoofer crawl is an excellent idea.

It sounds like you have a groundloop as well. Do you have a 3 prong to 2 prong adapter (cheater plug)?. If you do, use it and see if the hum goes away...if it does then you have a groundloop within your system.

I tries setting it to 0 and increasing the volume on the sub itself to 50% or more. I also tried increasing the gain on the av to about +4 and decreasing the sub volume. As far as the hum I will investigate further tonight. I believe i only heard the hum when it was plugged in into 1 particular outlet. I will confirm this tonight. If I can't find a location which makes a big improvement I will call Axiom and see what they say.

It appears as if the bass I do have is coming mostly from the front speakers. I did read one of Alans articles however that stated that's exactly how it should be.

I had this problem once, but it was an issue with the receiver itself....it had a short. Grab that sub and go to a friends place and hook it up on another system.

What problem exactly did you have? Did you have no bass? or some bass coming from the sub?

Another simple thing to try is simply another cable just in case your present one has an issue; any extra rca cables lying around will work as long as it will reach to the sub.

good point. Will try that too.

So I did not have the time to do a sub crawl yet, but After I got home last night I turned the AV on. Set the sub crossover to 90 while leaving the crossover for speakers at 80. Made sure all Audyssey fearures were off.Popped in a cd and listened to some music in Stereo Direct. I'm not really sure what changed, but the bass definately improved. Now I still had the volume half way up and sub set to +6db, but it sounded pretty good. I then popped in Saving Private Ryan.... The opening scene was pretty cool to watch. My wife was in bed on the other side of the house. She said she felt the explosions. I had the sub volume at 50% and sub set to +10db though. Does it sound like I'm getting somewhere yet? When I asked Axiom for help yesterday and told them i had the sub set to +5db they asked why I am limiting myself to +5db. You guys on the other hand are saying that you have the volume about a 1/4 of the way up and db of 0 to +3

Glad to hear things are getting better...

There's no reason (I can think of) why you have to have it as low as others here recommended. If I can speak for them, I believe this is simply a reflection of how most people have their systems set up. There's no harm in doing differently. In my case, the downside would be that I know I'd crack drywall turning it up that loudly (note that I have a different sub than you and a small room).

So, long story short, if turning it up results in sound that you are happy with, go for it! At some point, if you want to set it up how it "should" sound, you can buy an SPL meter for $20 or $30 and test the volume on each channel so that it is approximately the same. Even after doing that though, it absolutely comes down to personal preference, so there's no reason you have to do that if you like how it sounds now.

As to what changed, in my Denon, there is a different set of audio settings for 2 channel stereo direct listening than there is for multi-channel listening. You might check that menu to see if something is vastly different there to compare to your settings for multi-channel. However, that setting won't have any effect with movie audio performance (assuming you're not listening to the stereo track on the movies). It's worth checking either way to be sure, but it sounds like you're on your way to recovery, which is good news!

Jason

Hello listener,

Yes you are getting there. IMO there is nothing wrong with your subwoofer. I think the culprits are the settings on the denon(auddessy) or placement and or both.

Maybe try resetting the processor on the denon to bring it back to the manufacturing settings (write down the values of each speaker, distances and any other information on a piece of paper). On my denon to reset the processor you hold down Speaker A + Speaker B then press the power button (keep holding down Speaker A +Speaker B until the dislpay flashes in 1 second intervals then release). Check your manual to make sure it is the same procedure. By doing this any auddessy equilization will be gone.

Once reset, go back into the settings and manually set your speakers to small, subwoofer to yes, LFE+mains or LFE Norm, speaker and sub distances and enter your level matched values.

Now tinker with the sub and see if you notice any improvement with movies and music in different modes (multichannel, stereo, direct etc) with the values you entered before and see if you notice any improvement or if the the bass is too much or the same.

IMO i still think auddessy might be the culprit (even though you have it disabled, whos knows what it changed), by doing this you can eleminate this as a problem causing the low ouput for your sub. Keep us informed!

Good luck,

Dr. House

Where is the sub placed in your room?

Hmm well it is underneath the front left speaker. A few inches to the left of the sub is a brick hearth. Behind it is a wall. TO the right of it is the entertainment center. I did try placing it on the other side of the entertainment center with no noticable change.

Have you tried resetting the processor on the Denon to its manufacturer settings and re-entering the calibration values that auddessy gave you previously manually (speaker distances, speaker levels etc?

Have you tried the sub crawl yet?

Dr. House

not yet. I will report back as soon as i do. my father in law just bought a house and i gotta help him move.

BTW i just tried inserting an image into the post. It asks for a http address. I added my images to the file manager, but i do not know their http addresses

Listener, you'll need to upload your photos to a site like Photobucket, which will then create a link to the hosted pic.

Here are some pics. One shows where the sub is.

Looks cool!

Thats a clean setup. Very nice! I love the look of the HG cherry.

Very cool setup! I love the HG cherry finish (makes me wish I had that finish on my Axioms). The close up shots are stunning, especially that first pic of the W150 :).

Dr. House

Those are awesome, nice job on a clean looking install.

Thanks guys. So I reset the the AV to factory settings today and manually setup everything. It feels like I get a little more bass even though I do not have to set the volume on the sub as high as well as the channel level for the sub. I will keep tinkering. Hopefully sometime this week i will find some time to do the sub crawl. Even though I am somewhat limited as to where I can actually place the sub.

So far the system sounds awesome. Just watched "live to die another day". Even though the explosions did not knock me out of my seat they were pretty ... well explosive. So far I am one happy customer even though I know that I do not have the system calibrated perfectly yet. BTW I also got rid of the hum by installing a cheater plug. It works like a charm.

Looks great, thanks for the pics.

I forget how big your room is but the EP350 won't knock you out of your seat, especially in a large room, but you should be able feel it, even a little in a large room, through your seat while watching. To get knocking you out of your seat action you would need a couple of EP600's and even then they would need to be setup hotter than the rest of the system by a little, which most of us do anyway.

Nice looking set-up and room.

Couple of things you should check out. Make sure that DRC, Midnight mode, etc are all turned off. On the Denon and the Player (not sure what you have). In some cases, the movie tracks may have DRC turned on my default. And on Denon, you won't see the DRC setting for TrueHD unless you are bitstreaming TrueHD (only visible while the bitstream is happening. You should also look at the Audyssey setup FAQ over at AVS.

FYI, DRC = Dynamic Range Compression (that'll make it easier to find in the manual to know where the setting adjustment can be found in the GUI).

Jason

So I've read that there is no such thing as "breaking in" for subs. But it feels like the longer I have the 350 the better it sounds. Tonight I watched HULK. I was finally blown away by the bass and crispness. I'm quite happy with the sub.... but i could see a potential upgrade in the future. Not for a while though.

Adding twin 350v3's to my 600 gives a very intense experience. Just rented Iron Man and Hulk the other night, awesome....

I do not have the space for multiple subs. I guess the best thing to do is to eventually get the 600 or 800. That's a little pricey for my blood though.

[keep in mind, Randy(sirquack)'s room is cavernous]

The sub you have is awesome. I've heard it first hand and was really quite amazed with what it puts out from a modestly-sized box. The difference between it and the 600 are not extreme, so I think you can be quite happy with what you have.

Jason