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#229362 - 11/10/08 09:52 PM Re: M22 Ninja Master Crossover review. [Re: jakewash]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13344
Loc: Iowa
Thanks Jay, tell mojo to stop by the forums now and then, I've been worried about that guy.

In regards to the tape hiss sound, your most likely hearing the snare drum brushes that are often used in Jazz music. The first time I heard that with my 80's watching her concert in Paris DVD, I thought there was a recording flaw. Then I noticed the drumer was rolling the brush strokes which caused the sound and was on purpose.
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#229363 - 11/10/08 09:55 PM Re: M22 Ninja Master Crossover review. [Re: jakewash]
SatKartr Offline
aficionado

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 608
Loc: Dallas
Interesting review, if you consider the Axiom philosophy that many here share, i.e., that accurate rendition is always better than a pseudo-smooth sound that depends for its agreaableness upon masking the source material in one way or another, it sounds like the Ninja crossovers offer something special, you've been hearing content you never heard before and didn't even know was there in recordings with which you are familiar. With the M80s I have quickly adjusted to the fact that when I am not hearing something great it is the source material and not the speaker that is at fault, so I have zero perception of tradeoff, I want to hear exactly what the speaker delivers, good or bad, great or not so great, electronic artifice being no substitute for the thrill of sonic veracity, because when the real thing hits it's always a mindblower, to be there in the flesh.

Do you plan to keep the crossovers? If so it may be a matter of only days before you can discern if there is any tradeoff to the increased detail you are experiencing, so far the only downside sounds like awareness of inadequate recording techniques, and that doesn't get old, it just gets better, because you tune into the good stuff and leave the rest behind.

Thanks for the effort, please keep us posted.
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#229370 - 11/10/08 10:19 PM Re: M22 Ninja Master Crossover review. [Re: jakewash]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16297
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Thanks for sharing. Sounds like you heard an obvious and marked difference. Did you try swapping the speakers positions, i.e. moving the maple ones to the outside positions, so that you could be sure that room placement wasn't contributing significantly to the differences you heard?
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#229371 - 11/10/08 10:19 PM Re: M22 Ninja Master Crossover review. [Re: jakewash]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7223
Loc: Canada
Thanks for the review Jay. Did you try reversing speaker positions to see how that effected the soundstage?

 Quote:
In regards to the tape hiss sound, your most likely hearing the snare drum brushes that are often used in Jazz music. The first time I heard that with my 80's watching her concert in Paris DVD


I noticed the same thing when I listened to the DVD. It took me a while to realize it was the drum brushes.
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#229385 - 11/10/08 10:58 PM Re: M22 Ninja Master Crossover review. [Re: jakewash]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
Thanks for taking the time to do this and post your thoughts.

 Originally Posted By: jakewash

Are these crossovers an upgrade? That is an individual decision, some will think so, others will not. Is it a change? You bet.


For your personal taste do you think the $317/pair cost of the crossover enhances the sound of the $470/pair M22v2 enough to justify the additional cost? Any idea how the $787/pair M22vNinja compare to any other similarly priced speakers?

Thanks again for your effort,
Dean
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#229392 - 11/10/08 11:39 PM Re: M22 Ninja Master Crossover review. [Re: jakewash]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
Fascinating stuff.

I am surprised to hear that they brightened up the M22's. If anything, I would have bet that they'd go the other direction and try to add more midrange warmth.

Thanks for taking the time to do this testing!
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#229395 - 11/10/08 11:59 PM Re: M22 Ninja Master Crossover review. [Re: fredk]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10400
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
 Originally Posted By: fredk
Thanks for the review Jay. Did you try reversing speaker positions to see how that effected the soundstage?
Yes, I couldn't hear a difference.

 Originally Posted By: sirquack
In regards to the tape hiss sound, your most likely hearing the snare drum brushes that are often used in Jazz music. The first time I heard that with my 80's watching her concert in Paris DVD

I am not so sure it is snare brushes, as it is such a constant sound through out this recording, it never subsides nor changes pace. It does make sense that it could be the snare drums, but as I recall, I can hear this behind the snare drums and when we switched from the Ninja's to the v2s the noise was gone and the snares are still there, at least at the volume level we had it at. Maybe it would have returned if the gain was turned up.

 Originally Posted By: grunt
For your personal taste do you think the $317/pair cost of the crossover enhances the sound of the $470/pair M22v2 enough to justify the additional cost? Any idea how the $787/pair M22vNinja compare to any other similarly priced speakers?
That is hard to say, it has been awhile since I have listened to some ~$1000 bookshelfs and when I did I was never that critical, the price was beyond what I was looking to pay at the time. I will say that if you already own a set of M22s and are looking for more detail then the $317 is worth the money, just remember you my find them even more unforgiving than they already are, I know I did.

I think that might be my next round of listening tests. I found a couple of dealers here that sell the Monitor Audio GS10, they retail around $1000-1500.



Mojo does say hi to everyone and he said that if he wasn't so busy he would be around. Maybe I can convince him to drop in during Christmas if he slows down like most companies do.

JohnK, Mojo bought my line of you buying some M80's!!! Unfortunately I couldn't keep from smiling shortly afterwards.
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#229397 - 11/11/08 12:01 AM Re: M22 Ninja Master Crossover review. [Re: jakewash]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11270
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
Jay, I'll add another thanks. It's an interesting product, and I'm glad there are people like you on the forum who take it upon themselves to provide a little insight for the rest of us.

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#229398 - 11/11/08 12:02 AM Re: M22 Ninja Master Crossover review. [Re: PeterChenoweth]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10400
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
 Originally Posted By: PeterChenoweth

I am surprised to hear that they brightened up the M22's. If anything, I would have bet that they'd go the other direction and try to add more midrange warmth.
I was a little taken back as well when I first fired them up. I think Sean realized who the purchasers are of the M22s and why we bought them in the first place. Dulling them down, so to speak, would not appeal to us Axiom owners.
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-----------------
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#229408 - 11/11/08 12:35 AM Re: M22 Ninja Master Crossover review. [Re: jakewash]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10411
Very good, Jay; at least you had Mojo fooled for a few seconds.

As to the listening impressions, as I commented in the Ninja thread seemingly eons ago, I would have been interested in a complete lab analysis by Axiom(with Ninja sharing of data)followed by double blind testing first for audible differences and then for preferences if differences were established. Although guesses don't count, I'll proceed to make a guess that if the described impressions actually exist, the factor involved would appear to be that the tweeter in the Ninja is mainly responsible(because of the much lower crossover)for a lot of the upper mid-range that the mid-woofers handle in the standard Axiom. Since changes in the crossover frequency are relatively simple and inexpensive, I'd also assume that Ian tried several different crossover frequencies in the design of the M22s and selected what delivered the best results with a wide range of program material.
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