Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater A question for the sub owners in the house...

Ok so I'm about to purchase an Axiom home theater system, but I'm trying to decide between the Epic 80/600, or the Epic 80/500 with an extra EP500 to go along with it. So for owners of each, I would like to hear impressions in the differences between these two subs. I'm looking for maximum bass in movies (like everyone else), but also good, tight musical performance.

My movie room is 24 x 24 (about 600 sq ft) with 8 1/2 inch ceilings. It has a door to close it off to the rest of the house, so I'm sure that the EP600 would do the job just fine while the door is closed. What I'm wondering is will it fill my entire house (about 2500 sq ft) with pounding bass when I'm listening to music? This is what I was wondering, would I be better off spending $600 dollars more than the EP600's price tag ($1900) for an extra 400 watts worth of bass performance? Or is the EP 600 THAT MUCH BETTER of a sub than the EP500 that it's not neccessary?

I thank you in advance for your advice.

Hi Micah,

I don't have an EP600, but I do have 2 EP500s. My room is about 14 x 35. 7'8" ceilings. It's enough bass for me. They shake the room real nice. I would probably have been fine with 1 EP500. I don't have them turned up much at all. I'm sure one EP600 would work fine for you. Ever think of the EP800? Not sure of the price difference. Someone on these boards has both an EP600 and EP800. That would be overkill for my setup. But that really must shake things up!

I live in a ranch home with 2100 sq ft per level, or 4200 total. My HT/Rec room is about 30 x 31 x 9 with an open hallway into the rest of the basement.

Here is the order of subs I've owned:

350v1 (did well)

then upgraded to an ep500 (night and day difference, awesome performance)

then upgraded to a ep600 out of curiousity (very similar to the 500, just a little more bottom end and more overall presence, keep in mind the enclosure is much larger and takes up more room if you go with the horizontal version)

currently own twin 350v3's in addition to the 600 (this was done to give me a flatter frequency response across all seats and reduce peaks/nulls in the room)

To answer your question, I think you'll be happy with one 500 or 600. Two subs will give you more output and if placed across the room from each other, will help with a flatter response across all seats.

I think thay you'll be happier with two 500's vs just one 600. Not only is placement easier due to the smaller cabinet but like others have said you'll get better response with two subs. I decided on one EP600 for our theater room, If i had to do it all again i would have got two 500's instead.

Definitly 2 500's or 2 600. I only have an ep 600, but there are null spots in the room. 2 500s are probably better than only one ep 600

Great, hey thanks for all of the advice, very helpfull. Oh and an EP800??? I haven't even seen one of those in their products section, is it due out soon or something?

Soon, but not soon enough.

Ouchomatic! Sorry!

I'd be inclined to go with 2 EP 500s for the flatter response throughout the seating area.

Yes that's the move I'm gravitating towards as well. Having googled the EP800 it sounds very tempting, but I think two 500 watt ported subs will out perform a 1000 watt sealed subwoofer. Sure the sealed box can deliver lower bass, but I'm thinking that the 19 hz that the EP500's go down to will be sufficient. And the ported design will ultimately move more air.

Now I'm wondering if two main towers will be enough? I'm running my system with a Denon AVR-4802 reciever that will push the center channel with 150 watts, and all 6 surrounds (the 4802 is a 7.1 channel reciever that splits the 2 rear channels up to give you the option of running 4 rears, 2 sides as well as the center & fronts... It sounds amazing!) At 150 watts per channel. To push the left and right center speakers I have a Denon PMA-2000 on the way that will send 165 watts at 4 ohms to the M80's.

The speakers I have now are Cambridge Soundworks in the rear and Cerwin Vega's up front with a 220 watt Cerwin Vega down firing sub, and it sounds really awesome. So I'm almost wondering if 1000 watts worth of bass is going to drown out the 330 watts coming out of the front main speakers? From everything I've read about them they play exceptionally loud though, so I guess we'll see.

I just wish there was a local dealer around here... I'd LOVE to give that EP800 a listen!

I would think your Denon alone would be adequate to drive that entire system. The difference between 150 and 160 watts is nill.

There is no substitute for digging even deeper, you feel it more.



Once you have everything calibrated the sub should be blending in with the mains and other speakers, and will never overpower them. you just get to feel it more over the entire floor space with 2 subs opposed to one which can leave dead spots in a room.

Personally it would be a hard choice for me to pick dual 500's over a single 800. I dunno what I would do?

Go for dual 800's!!!

It won't drown them out if the speakers are properly calibrated.It also takes more power to produce the really low bass frequencies from the sub hence the higher wattage.

Well the 4802 isn't rated to push 4 ohm speakers. They push 150 watts at 6 ohms, and there are several warnings on Axioms web page to make sure your amp can handle running 4 ohms high current poer without over heating or shutting down. So I figured instead of straining my reciever. I would just go ahead and push them with a separate amp. And the PMA-2000 is supposed to be an exceptional power amp. With tons of dynamic room so peaks will not be anissue what-so-ever.

But knowing I have an extra 150 watts per channel laying around will certainly stir my curiosity I'd think. Some where down the line I'll just have to borrow some towers from one of my friends (maybe someone around here will buy some top of the line Paradigms!!!), and see what they sound lie in comparison! That could be quite interesting. =)

Denon's have no issues driving 4 ohm loads, and have been recommended my Axiom for years. My Denon 2805 can drive my 80's to levels beyond what most people listen, and that is a lot older model than the 4802.

The Denon would be just fine. While it's not rated for 4 ohm, I think we have yet to find a Denon that doesn't handle the M80s just fine.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/ep800.html here is the link to the EP 800. It will be out soon. December I think. hope this helps

That particular model should be able to run a 4 ohm load with ease. When I was looking at Denon receivers a while back I noticed that they only rated their 2 channel amps at 4ohms. The last time I checked their higher end models were rated 6-8ohms but they are able to handle a 4ohm load. The M80's are pretty efficient so it should be fine.

I would not however run a 4ohm load on Denons low end entry level models.

I ran the M80s on my Denon 1804 for several months till I couldn't resist the 3808 and its features any longer. Denons as far as I can tell, are very stable, rock solid receivers. I even ran my low end 1804 with 2 M22 and a Vp150 all paralleled for several hours with about 85db - no problems what so ever. The 4802 on it's own is more than capable of running the M80s, save your money up till you can get an even bigger seperate amp. The 4802 should be upwards of 180W into 4 ohms, even more than your seperate. To really hear a difference you need to be looking at 250W or more seperate amps.

Well NOW YOU TELL ME!!!

Ha ha ha...

Ok well I guess I'll have to take you guys word on that, but personally I guess I would just feel more comfortable knowing that I'm pushing a 4 ohm speaker with a power supply that is rated at 4 ohms (the PMA-2000 is a 2 channel reciever, and is rated to drive 4 ohms) to match... that's just me though, I'm strange that way.

I guess part of it also comes from a review on the 4802 that I read where the reviewer described the Denon as an exceptional pre-amp, but the power supply was middle of the road. In his review he pretty much made the case that true audiophile systems are comprised of separates & that there basically aren't any recievers that deliver true audiophile quality sound from their power supplies. I will say that my current set-up sounds strained when turned up to maximum levels while listening to music, but I attribute most of that to the Cerwin Vega towers being entry level speakers and not high-end.

But I guess I took that reviewers philosophy to heart and have craved a separate amp to push my mains ever since. And the fact that I am now buying a system that calls for a 4 ohm rated amp seemed like the best excuse so far to do so! Tee he he...

But the extra channel won't be wasted, I have a pair of speakers out on the deck that I can run into the 4802 and listen to my music while I'm outside grilling now.... SUPER SWEET!!!!

Oh but I am glad to hear that the Denon is capable to run 4 ohms. I was feeling somewhat disheartened thinking that it wasn't as flexible as some of the other brands out there. When I was shopping for my reciever it was a toss-up between the Denon and a Yamaha. And after 4 years with the 4802 I'm increadibly happy with it as a surround reciever. With the new speakers I'm hoping to fall in love with it all over again & appreciate it musical abilities more now that it will have more compitent speakers to compliment it.

Some Yamahas are known to shut down driving the M80s, so you made a good choice.

I have heard the same thing about certain Onkyo receivers with the M80's.

Yup, a few have reported their Onkyo's couldn't handle the M80s either.

Well I guess that makes me a good guesser then as I had no experience with Denon what-so-ever before I purchased the 4802. My previous receiver was a VERY cheap Sony (you know, the kind of receivers that came in one of those $500 dollar stacks comprised of a receiver, a dual tape deck, a cd player and two speakers... yeah that was my first foray into Hi-fi). After hooking it up to my 36 inch Toshiba and purchasing my first DVD player I was hooked on the concept of Home Theater... but didn't have any money to purchase anything better. So after a few years at my job, and a few raises later, I FINALLY was ready to make an attempt at putting a more serious Home Theater System together.

Initially I was planning on upgrading to a better Sony unit. My initial spending limit was $1000 dollars. But as I started to investigate pricing, and started doing serious comparisons with high-end receivers, Sony quickly faded into the background and Yamaha, Pioneer and Denon started to stand out. Then my price limit started to give me grief... the more I read about the higher end features, the less and less desirable the $1000 and under crowd became to me. So after much debate I found an AVR-4802 at the rock bottom price of just $1700 dollars (this was about 4 years ago mind you), and I just couldn't pass it up with all the features it had compared to anything else in that price range.

In order to pay the extra money for the receiver I had to buy some very modest towers. I bought a pair of $650 dollar Cerwin Vega's, and a decent Cerwin Vega center. The Cambridge Soundwork surrounds were very nice though, and the down firing 220 watt Cerwin Vega sub placed directly behind the couch also did a fairly nice job for the money. All of that coupled with the (at the time) top of the line Toshiba 65 inch projection HDTV (LCD wasn't on the map yet, and only Bill Gates could afford the Plasma's at that time), and I had a grand total of around $7000 wrapped up in my movie room. It was very amaturish at best, but the kids still loved it, as did my football buddies.

But it's been a few years, and my budget has grown even more now. So what on earth else would I do... but go out and upgrade my Home Theater System again, right? Naturally, it's man law after all.

So knowing that my speakers were my weak-link, that is where I began. And having narrowed it down to two Canadian (it's purely coincidental that I too am Canadian I assure you) brands, Paradigm and Axiom, I came to the conclusion that my swollen budget is still shy of the total cost of a 'Top of the Line' Paradigm surround system. And while I'm sure their line of speakers that are comparable to the Axiom Epic 80 systems probably sound beautiful, I guess I'd rather have a company's flagship product over another company's middle of the road product... like I said, I'm strange sometimes.

So I'm hoping this guess will go as well as my Denon guess went, as I also have absolutely no experience with Axiom speakers what-so-ever before this purchase. The 4802 is sticking around as it is still a worthy anchor for my system. But the Toshiba is also getting replaced by a Sharp 65 inch Aquos LCD tv. A friend of mine has a 42 inch Sharp LCD that is just stunning to watch. So I'm really excited to see what the upgraded tv will look like in conjunction with the upgraded sound system. It feels like christmas!

My parents have a 46" Sharp and it is one of the few LCDs that can display a passed football with out a blurring.

ALL the latest PLasmas and LCD look incredible and so much better than the ones from just last year(not sure if it is just a marketing ploy by retailers). I was just looking at the 58"(?) plasma by Samsung, a series 8 and right beside it was a series 7, the colors were much richer and everything looked to show even more detail on the series 8. I am almost glad I can no longer afford a new TV this year, can't wait to see what they have in store for next year.

I concur with this statement, especially since your room is square.

What?

Oh, I thought someone was talking to me.

I have a web crawler set up to alert me when someone posts "square" and "room" anywhere on the internet. If they also post the word "suckage", I get paged.

Square room suckage..........Hi Mark.

*BEEP*BEEP*BEEP*

Hi, Captain Pike.

I take it square rooms aren't ideal for Home Theater? Hmmmm... well if there is a remedy for this situation let me know. For now I guess I'll just have to grin and bare it. I suppose there could be worse situations to find yourself in than moving in with your girlfriend who owns a house with square rooms... I can't think of any right off hand, but I'm sure google could uncover SOMETHING!!!

The basement of my old house was quite a bit more suitable I will admit. The movie room measured 18 x 30. This alowed the 1st set of surrounds to be placed directly to either side of the sitting area, and the other 4 surround speakers set deep behind creating a huge pocket from which to shoot special effects sounds at you from. I remember very vividly watching 'Pearl Harbor', I could have sworn that they were bombing the city right next to us... Fantastically realistic! Another one of my favorite scenes to watch was in 'The Devils Own' where Brad Pitt is hiding out in that abandoned building from the IRA... It sounded as if that helicopter was literally landing on the roof of my house!!!

I will miss my basement.

Rooms that are the most problematic are ones with the dimensions the same, or easily divisible into each other:

10 x 10 x 10 (terrible scenario)
20 x 10 x 10 (not much better)
12 x 15 x 27 ( much better)

The remedy is treatments (bass traps/accoustic panels), multiple subs, followed by EQ as a last resort.

SERIOUS QUESTION ALERT:
A question to people who know/used that type of products (bass traps and stuff).

Are the ones from "Real Traps" really good? The price is not cheap. I was wondering if they are worth it. In other words, are they the "Monster Cables" of room treatments or the "Axiom" (not cheap, but worth every penny)? If the are the "MC", what are the alternatives?

Thanks in advance.

Eric. I don't know how they compare to other acoustic products, but from what I have read, they are a legit business.

Most of these traps are made of pretty basic materials, a high density insulation made from rock wool or fiberglass and, if you are handy, can quite easily be made.

I recently picked up a pack of 8, 2' x 4' x 2" sheets of 3lb/cu.ft. fiberglass for $60. For $20-$25 I can build a 4" 2x4 pannel trap.

If you are not inclined to build your own, Realtraps is probably a reasonable value.

Real Traps is a legit business, however, they use Owens Corning 703 for most of their traps. You can build your own a lot cheaper, that is what I did. Ethan, the owner of Realtraps, likes to promote DIY on other forums. I payed about $120 US for 12 sheets of 2' x 4' x 2" thick of 703 rigid fiberglass.

Pictures on my website.

Was that a comic genius moment or what? The combination of Mark's avatar plus his posting beep beep beep. I couldn't stop laughing!

Geez, two things in two days that I didn't get....

Though I've never been a huge Trekkie....

I have not used Real Traps but I do have the Tri-Corner traps from GIK Acoustic. I would say that they do improve the room acoustics but I probably still need to treat the first reflection points. The build quality is average for this brand (the top and bottom plastic pieces could have been designed better but the fabric covering is pretty good). The first indication that I needed treatments in the corner came a couple of years ago when I put my Christmas tree in the corner and my system sounded much better. Check out GIK Acoustic and Echo Busters as alternatives.

GIK's Tri-Traps are constructed with plastic nowadays? Whenever I bought my Tri-Traps about three years ago the framing was made from heavy duty cardboard and 1"x 1"s, which worked out good because I trimmed a couple of them to fit on top of an existing pair already in he corners to fill each front wall corner from floor to ceiling. The one thing I don't like however is that there is a slight coloration difference in the black fabric between the two pairs that is somewhat noticeable, good product overall though.

If nothing else I'd at least give the bass traps a try, they certainly made an improvement in our room.

I bought mine about a year and a half ago and the top and bottom plates are plastic (maybe 1/8 to 3/16 of an inch thick). The frame is probably still made the same way. I would still recommend them if you don't feel like a DIY project.

Excuse my ignorance but I've never even heard of bass traps before... What purpose do they serve? Do they absorb some excess, harsh, over powering bass? Or do they somehow bounce bass back into the listening area? I was under the impression that unlike the upper frequencies of the sound spectrum, bass was non-directional.

But if there are companies out there making products that redirect bass, then I suppose I don't quite understand bass as much as I thought I did.

Micah:
You'll hear several opinions on bass traps, as many people have strong feelings about them.

The purpose of the traps is to prevent bass (bassi or basses for the plural) from running around loose in your theater room, where they will eventually breed and make little mids and (what are affectionately called) little tweets. Cute as the little families are, they'll eventually annoy your neighbors, ruin your carpets and drink your beer.

Still, though, I think it's just cruel to trap your bassi in this style of bass trap:


(This photo illustrates just how cruel it is by actually showing a bass bone caught in the trap)


For me, keeping them out of the theater room but in a "humane" way is what's most important. This is the one that I use because it doesn't harm the basses, and I can later release them into the wild:


I don't mean to preach, but my take on it is that they both serve the purpose, one just allows you to sleep a bit more peacefully.

Ah thank you, you've been most helpfull!


So anyway... I'm certainly no expert on this subject, but my confusion arises from the information I gained watching a fascinating program about elephants on 'Animal Planet' on the Discovery Channel. They explained how elephants communicated over hundreds of miles in the wild by using sub-sonic requencies emmited through their trunks. They showed the way the upper range of the sonic wavelengths were limited by things like tree's, rocks, grass, and anything else that might come between you and the subject making the sound. Then they showed how sub-sonic wavelengths actually move right through just about any object that you can find in the jungle (not many bass traps laying around out there I don't guess) and therefore can be heard (or more likely 'felt') from extrodinary distances.

So it seems to me if these frequencies can travel uninterupted over those kinds of increadible distances in the Sahara... Why would I have a problem hearing/feeling the bass in my living room from 15 feet away???

Hi Micah:
Sorry about the humor...I didn't have any useful info to add as I don't have bass traps in my room. I assumed that by the time I posted or very shortly after, others with more experience would have posted some truly helpful info and my post would have simply been one in a crowd!

I'm sure others will be along shortly!

Hi Micah. Pay no attention to that Mark guy. He'a a pain in the afterburner.

You can learn a lot about acoustics in general and bass traps specifically from articles and videos at RealTraps.com. Other companies that manufacture similar products are GIK Acoustics, and ATS Acoustics. You might find more info at their web sites.

No worries, humor is not lost on me. In fact I had quite a chuckle when I re-read my post and realized I'd wrote that elephants talk to eachother across the Sahara... which of course is not a place where many elephants would indeed be communicating. And if they were, they'd probably be asking each other how in the hell to get back to the freakin jungle already! lmao

Mark. Now I understand why you have a room that sucketh. Those basses are breeding in the trap. Ya gotta use trap #1 or you're done fer.

The intent is that they absorb excess, harsh, overpowering bass.

If you were listening in a huge anechoic chamber you would only hear the bass coming from your subwoofer. In a normal room, you get a louder signal at certain frequencies and a quieter signal at other frequencies because of room resonances, which are a function of the room dimensions.

Even in a room with ideal dimensions (there are various recommended ratios for length:width:height) you will still get a bumpier bass response from the resonances than you would in an anechoic chamber. You might think bass peaks aren't so bad, but you end up having to turn the subwoofer down to avoid booming and as a result other frequencies get short-changed. In the very worst case you get Mark's room - there's a reason he is so bitter about anything related to bass.

Bass traps absorb some of the energy. As I understand it, placing them in corners and wall junctions results in absorbing relatively more of the energy from the resonances than from other frequencies (although I'm a bit unclear on how that works), reducing the peaks and giving you a somewhat flatter response. They aren't a magic bullet but they do seem to be a useful tool for dealing with specific room problems, and most rooms seem to benefit from having some.

Mark, I hate having to be the one to point this out, but the dimensions of your trap #2 look to be almost exactly 2:1:1, not unlike a cube in terms of bass response

Only when empty...only when empty. And 9 times out of 10, it's usually two-thirds stuffed with Bassi.

Well this is just GREAT!!! It seems anymore the better you want your system to sound, the more freakin crap you have to buy to achieve said goal. Why can't we just go back to the good ol days of hi-fi when things were much, much simpler... you know, way back in W's first term of office!!!

Hi Micah,

Don't get carried away by the bass traps movement. Mostly, they don't work unless they're extremely large and ugly, and the biggest proponents of bass traps are. . . .who else but the manufacturers of bass traps!

You're far better off in terms of even bass distribution to get two subwoofers than waste a lot of money on bass traps. Careful positioning of two subwoofers will get you 90% of the way towards the ideal--four subwoofers (!!).

Regards,
Alan

Four subwoofers??? Ha-ha, yes this seems like a MUCH cheaper way to optimize the sound of my stereo system! Is it just a coincidence that the biggest proponent of a lot of subwoofers is... a subwoofer manufacturer???

LMAO, just busting your balls a litte Alan. I am still battling over the decision to buy two EP500's or the new EP800 to be honest. I am excited about both of the possibilities. Hey I know, if you want me to do a full review on both set-ups why don't you just send both combinations over and I'll get down to the bottom of the question, "which set-up works best"! =D

I will be making a decision and ordering a Home Theater package within the next week... when does the EP800 officially roll out?

Hello Micah,

This is one subject that I don't agree with Alan. They don't have to be big/ugly, and they do work, in my opinion if you use the correct proven material. And no, it was not just my brain getting used to the sound. If placed correctly, the sound is far less skewed and there is less ringing and echoing.

I'm a supporter of bass traps and FRZ (first reflection zone) panels. I'm also a supporter of multiple subs. Bass collects in corners of rooms, including floor/wall and ceiling/wall locations, which affects the FR throughout the entire room. The bass traps DO help even out the frequency response for all locations, just like multiple subs do, they can work togethor in harmony. I will say I am not a EQ fan, and plan to sell my SMS-1 soon.

This science applies not only to recording studios, but also to home applications. Engineers would not use them in recording lab settings if there was no benefit. Graphs don't lie either, and they don't have to be expensive. I made all mine myself, it was very affordable and easy. If your not a DIY person, GIK and others are very affordable as well. Other companies can be more expensive.

I've had a few auditions in my home, the last one just last week. The person mentioned how tight/accurate and not skewed the sound was. This was not the case with bare reflective walls. Yes, before the Axioms sounded awesome, but a person could notice the echo or reflective sound bouncing off the side walls and ceiling.

I am not advocating completely covering every square inch of wall and ceiling space, as to much can deaden the sound and you do need a little reflection. If you've ever gone from having a reflective floor (concrete/wood) to placing a pad/carpet/ it is like night and day better. The same applies to FRZ's on walls and ceiling.

Here is a great read on the subject.

http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html

Here is a before/after graph of my room with measurements taken in 1Hz increments. The only change was adding front corner bass traps using Owens Corning 703, the same material used in recording studios, sound labs, theaters, auditorioms, gymnasiums, sound chambers, you get the idea...

Also, this was when I only had ONE sub, the EP500.

What dB level were you calibrated to here Randy?

It has been almost two years since I plotted this graph manually using the Real Traps download files. I'm pretty sure I had all my speakers calibrated to around 78dB's. When you download the files there is a pink noise clip your supposed to run first and I think you raise the volume to around 78dB's before you start the individual 10-300Hz plotting.