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#249799 - 03/02/09 10:41 AM setting distance (delay) multiple subwoofers...
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13318
Loc: Iowa
Just curious what the rest of you are doing that have multiple subwoofers, especially a combination of DSP based and non-DSP based subs?

I've read many articles on this topic and talked to a few people also. I'm currently following Jakemans and Audioholics recommendations by averaging the distance of all three subs.

The problem lies in how to handle the EP600 or other DSP based subs. Jakeman recommended adding 3ft for any component that is DSP based to account for the internal delay of the amp.

The confusion comes when using the built in setup of the Denon, it places my 600 at 27ft away. It is dead nuts accurate on my 350v3's, at 13ft away (they are not DSP based). The 600's physical distance is about 15ft, so I've been adding 3ft to that based on what I've read about DSP delay, then averaging all 3.

So I've got (13ft + 13ft + 18ft) / 3 = 14.6ft average.

I remember in the past that everyone questioned why the auto setup in various receiver brands were setting the distance so far off for the DSP subs. If I recall correctly, Alan, JohnK, and others said it is ok, that is normal based on the internal delay that comes with DSP based technology.

So I guess should I be using the 27ft reading from the Denon, or go with the physical distance plus 3ft, which is what many people/websites say to do.

Also, should I be averaging all 3? Any thoughts? I don't know why in this day and age that receivers don't have seperate LFE out jacks for multiple subs. It just seems everyone is talking about using multiple subs these days.
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M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
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#249803 - 03/02/09 11:14 AM Re: setting distance (delay) multiple subwoofers... [Re: SirQuack]
casey01 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/03/08
Posts: 761
Loc: Toronto
I have four subs of various lineages and distances from my listening position and I believe phase, balance(vol.) positioning, for me, are MUCH more important factors in good sound than a couple of feet here or there in measuring distances. I wouldn't worry about it. You could have the distance set perfectly but if the above items are not set to their optimum, it isn't going to make any difference.

The other issue you asked about LFE outs on AVR's has been a bone of contention of mine for some time now. When you look at the increased sophistication, inputs and outputs for everything else yet only ONE sub out? Ridiculous, and when you ask this question of the retailer/distributor they just shrug their shoulders. Pre-pros of the recent past have usually been the ones with multiple sub outs but even there, they are cutting back. It seems the only way you can get around this is spending the extra dough to buy a unit like the Velodyne SMS-1(I have one) or this forthcoming Audessey sub unit from SVS or some other multiple sub crossover unit which tend to be found more in musical instrument applications, otherwise your basically left with daisy chaining subs together with Y-plugs.

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#249805 - 03/02/09 11:16 AM Re: setting distance (delay) multiple subwoofers... [Re: SirQuack]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
I don't know why in this day and age that receivers don't have seperate LFE out jacks for multiple subs. It just seems everyone is talking about using multiple subs these days.

It seems to always take OEM companies awhile to catch upto the more common updagrades/changes that take place, kind of like how long it took car companies to start offering a nicer option of wheels to the usual steel rim and hubcap they had produced for years.

I guess the biggest thing for the manufacturers is that the LFE track is still designed for 1 sub, maybe when that changes to include a Left, Right, Front and Back or something similar, then avr manufacturers will be forced to have more sub outputs.

Yamaha has been offering dual outputs for sometime now, but I believe they are not a seperate output under control of different setups. Maybe the next generation of avr's will have 4 sub outputs, all with a seperate control in the menu for those of you that have multpile subs, even if the LFE track stays as a mono signal.
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#249806 - 03/02/09 11:21 AM Re: setting distance (delay) multiple subwoofers... [Re: jakewash]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11146
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
It seems like it would be a really good way to differentiate your product. You'd think someone would have already done 4 sub outs with independent settings.
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#249811 - 03/02/09 11:28 AM Re: setting distance (delay) multiple subwoofers... [Re: CV]
MarkSJohnson Online   happy
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10832
Loc: Central NH
A simple distribution amp like this might work for some, though I think a splitter is fine for those with only two subs.
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#249818 - 03/02/09 11:57 AM Re: setting distance (delay) multiple subwoofers... [Re: MarkSJohnson]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
It isn't so much a matter of having multiple outputs, as it is having independent outputs. With receivers/processors now adding delay and phase compensation for the sub out, it becomes an issues when you have multiple subs located different distances from the listening area.
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#249820 - 03/02/09 12:00 PM Re: setting distance (delay) multiple subwoofers... [Re: ClubNeon]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13318
Loc: Iowa
That is what I was talking about, wouldn't make sense to just have multiple outputs that are not independent, would be no different than using splitters or daisy chaining.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#249821 - 03/02/09 12:05 PM Re: setting distance (delay) multiple subwoofers... [Re: SirQuack]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13318
Loc: Iowa
Looks like the Denon 5308 have 3 SW PreOuts, but it is just a little out of my $$$$$ range.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#249827 - 03/02/09 12:30 PM Re: setting distance (delay) multiple subwoofers... [Re: SirQuack]
MarkSJohnson Online   happy
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10832
Loc: Central NH
Fine.

See if I ever help you guys again.






_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#249829 - 03/02/09 12:35 PM Re: setting distance (delay) multiple subwoofers.. [Re: MarkSJohnson]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16259
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
What do you mean, "again"?
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