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#250193 - 03/04/09 02:23 PM Re: Should our governments help out the auto industry? [Re: BrenR]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7047
Loc: Canada
The North American Unions and the 'big 3' lead each other down the garden path.

Having worked in both North American and Japanese plants, I can safely say that the Japanese are better organized to produce efficiently. The responsibility for any lack of competitiveness rests with both labour and management.

As the auto industry got flushed down the toilet, I was less than impressed by CAW leaders insisting they had given up everything they were going to and expecting that the rest of the country should bail them out.

I was not any more impressed by the heads of the big 3 as they went to Washington to insist they did nothing wrong, but wanted to be bailed out. These guys should be REQUIRED to pay back every bonus they got for the last 10 years and whould immeditaly have their sallaries cut exponentially!

Let the chairman and CEO of GM put all his personal wealth on the line before we give them a penny. Unfortunatley it dosn't work that way 'round here.
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#250195 - 03/04/09 02:29 PM Re: Should our governments help out the auto industry? [Re: MarkSJohnson]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4472
Loc: Marion, IA
My dad has been a "Union Man" for most of his adult life. He swore by the union and stuck with them through everything. He wasn't in the auto industry, but worked for John Deere in their earth moving machines division. He worked the factory life, and honestly, it sucked. Plain and simple. The conditions were terrible, poor ventilation in a massive building where there are all sorts of toxins, no cooling in the middle of hot summers bringing internal building temps above 110F many times during the summer. Heat in winter was somewhat localized in the buildings, with many areas around 50F. Then, when things got really bad, the union would call a strike, and I remember my dad being off work for months and months at a time while they "negotiated" with the company. And for what? A minimal pay increase that was lost and then some during the time that they were on strike, and no better working conditions.

I can go on and on. I have a bitter taste because my dad was in the union, but not because of the union itself. I'm not saying that the factories should be kept at a comfy 72F and smell like roses, but if the top executives would have taken a little less in their bonuses, pensions, etc then maybe there could have been better ventilation, better heating, cleaner air, and better pay without waiting for a strike to take place. It is these executives that seem to never be on the "chopping block" yet just one executive's pay (total package) could keep tons of people employed.

I believe in capitalism that if you work hard you SHOULD get ahead in the world, but at some point it becomes too much.
_________________________
http://ht.buol.us
M60s, VP180, VP150, QS8s, SVS 20-39PCi, HTPC, JVC RS45, Onkyo TX-NR709, Shakers

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#250205 - 03/04/09 03:14 PM Re: Should our governments help out the auto industry? [Re: fredk]
BrenR Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 3602
Loc: Winnipeg MB Canada
 Originally Posted By: fredk
The responsibility for any lack of competitiveness rests with both labour and management.
You're lumping the unions in again in those financial decisions. I don't understand why. I can tell you for sure that Buzz Hargrove and Ken Lewenza never sat in on top-tier meetings here.

 Originally Posted By: fredk
I was less than impressed by CAW leaders insisting they had given up everything they were going to and expecting that the rest of the country should bail them out.
Simple, that which it takes you 100 years to obtain, you do not give up for a 2 year recession, and then take another 100 years to regain. Management is inherently stupid. As we discussed - they remove 20 clocks that saves them $40 in a year and pat themselves on the back and give themselves $4K raises for being such good boys. Economic downturns mean they do other stupid things, like immediately firing employees, which signals shareholders that they must be being fiscally responsible in these "tough times."

I have yet to hear a compelling argument against unions in these sorts of discussions that doesn't contain the word "cahoots."

Bren R.

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#250211 - 03/04/09 03:30 PM Re: Should our governments help out the auto industry? [Re: fredk]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6613
Loc: It's all about the location.
 Originally Posted By: fredk
The North American Unions and the 'big 3' lead each other down the garden path.
You hit the nail on the head. There is avarice throughout these companies from top to bottom...unless they are willing to take a haircut, nobody else should take one.
_________________________
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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#250230 - 03/04/09 04:28 PM Re: Should our governments help out the auto industry? [Re: BrenR]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7047
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
You're lumping the unions in again in those financial decisions.

It takes two, one to ask, one to say yes. I am not anti union, in fact, just the opposite. We have the working condtions we do now because a bunch of people got together and stood up to the 'capitalists'. It cost many people their lives or livelyhoods in the early 1900s.

The thing is, both the unions and the companies talked themselves into inflexible and expensive contracts. They also defined that relationship and made it an oppositional one. This relationship has led to a very inflexible workforce compared to the Japanese plants.

I wonder that nobody offered to reduce their wages for a limited time period. Short term pain to get the company through a very bad time. I bet there are a whole range of options that neither side explored because of their limited thinking and entrenched positions.
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#250243 - 03/04/09 05:45 PM Re: Should our governments help out the auto industry? [Re: fredk]
BrenR Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 3602
Loc: Winnipeg MB Canada
 Originally Posted By: fredk
They also defined that relationship and made it an oppositional one. This relationship has led to a very inflexible workforce compared to the Japanese plants.
The North American and Japanese cultures are also much different. "The common good" there isn't used sarcastically from what I understand. Also, honour isn't considered a character flaw.

 Originally Posted By: fredk
I wonder that nobody offered to reduce their wages for a limited time period.
And once you show that you'll work for that, that'll become new bargaining leverage. Memories are short when you do people favours.

Bren R.

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#250263 - 03/04/09 07:48 PM Re: Should our governments help out the auto industry? [Re: BrenR]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7047
Loc: Canada
Having been through the 'what have you done for me in the last 5 minutes' ringer several times in the past I understand that sentiment.

All the more reason to let the companies and their employees resolve this by themselves I guess.

I do not begrudge people their good wages, I just don't want to end up subsidizing them with my tax $. That is not what our governments are doing... yet.
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#250264 - 03/04/09 07:50 PM Re: Should our governments help out the auto industry? [Re: fredk]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6613
Loc: It's all about the location.
Bottom line is....if WE bail them out....WE tell the companies "how we're gonna do it".


Edited by Adrian (03/04/09 08:00 PM)
_________________________
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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#250274 - 03/04/09 08:52 PM Re: Should our governments help out the auto industry? [Re: BrenR]
SRoode Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 1200
Loc: Fishers, Indiana, USA
 Originally Posted By: BrenR
The North American and Japanese cultures are also much different. "The common good" there isn't used sarcastically from what I understand. Also, honour isn't considered a character flaw.


And there lies the fatal flaw in our current Westernized system. The "common good" and "honor" is basically expected to be a one way street... From the bottom up.

Over my last 20 years or so in the working force, I've seen a dwindling amount of respect and value of the talent. You are expected to work 50-60 hours a week if necessary, but you are not entitled to get paid your salary if you only need to work 30 hours for a week. If things get tight, your years of service are ignored for the bottom line.

Don't get me wrong, I am a wholehearted capitalist. I just think that many people in control are actually dictators, and are more concerned with their own self interests.
_________________________
2 M80s, 1 VP180, 4 QS8s, 2 EP800s, 4 Algonquins, 2 M3 VaSSallos

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#250279 - 03/04/09 10:05 PM Re: Should our governments help out the auto industry? [Re: Worfzara]
Family Man Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/28/08
Posts: 95
Loc: Montreal, Canada
this is a democracy with a capitalist economy the last time i checked. with that said, if the car companies go bankrupt they go bankrupt. i believe that the whole will be filled by someone else. to bad. capitalism. that's life.

on the note of helping out, governments should put our MONEY back into the population. to do this, they must pump billions into our charted banks instead of car companies that declared massive profits and ridiculous bonus's. this special action will force the banks to lend this money with extremely relaxed lending rules.Canada must also guarantee these loans at least partially. the banks are happy because they will be allowed to make a small profit and money will start circulating again. believe me this will start the economy again. Second, the banks started all this credit card debt, yes even in Canada. this has to be paid, but, there should be a grace period where anyone carrying a credit card debt be allowed to convert it into a mortgage style loan giving the borrower at least 20 years and at the current rate of 3%-5% instead of the 19.9%-24% that they(the banks) are currently charging the public.

I could go on, but this is not a forum for financial advice. Hope you agree with me. after all this is done, we could all at least afford 2 more ep 800's with my ep 600 going behind my flat screen.

there you have it.
_________________________
M80-QS8-VP150-EP600-A1400-8
STR-DA5300ES BDPS5000ES.

Mark

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