Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Anybody using an M60 as a center?

I am going to order a pair of M80's and an M60 for use as a center. Has anyone used an M60 as a center?

I am assuming that this will sound great, but was just curious to hear from one of you that had done this.

I have had my share of using the standard MTM/horizontal design, but have never truly been satisfied. From what I have read, the MTM design is more a matter of physical functionality than the best design for the task, hence why I have decided to go vertical.

Thanks for your thoughts!

P.s. I am a fairly seasoned AV VET, but totally new to Axiom.
I am REALLY HAPPY to become a part of the Axiom family.

Cheers.
FN

(edit)
Details on my room...
L W H
36x14x8 = 4000cf+-

I sit back from the center roughly 15' (However the room is much deeper.)
L&R mains are 11' apart.
Screen size is 109"

Welcome to the forum.

I ran an M60 with M80's for a couple of days before I sent the pair of M60s back and I thought it was amazing, much better than the VP150 or even an M22 as a center. I know Dean(grunt) on this forum is running an M80 as a center and seems to really like it.

Have you considered or tried the VP150?
It is not a traditional centre design and compared to the other centre channels i've heard. Its wide dispersion has been far superior.
Some people use two, one above and one below the image unit.

Yes, I have considered the VP150, but honestly, from what other opinions I have read, it was the weak part in others systems when paired with the M80's. I am used to larger ported centers, with a good deal of mid and more bass and I fear that the VP150 might not "do it for me."

I also really want to try a vertical center per the recomendation of Jim Smith, the author of "Get Better Sound."
He is very, very anti "any" horizontally alligned speaker.

I'm sure that I "personally" would like the VP150. From many of the reviews I have read, it's one heck of a center, but I am more curions that anything. And from the picture above, it just looks cool!

By the way, I have no way of placing a VP150 above and below as suggested. If I had an aqoustically tranparent screen, then yes, I would consider it for sure.

I'm not sure where this came from but i personally cannot say i've seen such a comment.
It really would only be a comment IMO. I wouldn't read into this so much.



I'm not really sure what people expect from a centre channel. It's primary duty is to relay vocals, anchoring the left and right channels across a front soundstage.
It's purpose is not to provide bass or the sound range expected from the main speakers.
I've never understood why people seem to think they are "missing" something because the surround speakers and centre channel are not as large and big as the main fronts.


So you're taking the advice of a biased person?
That's how cults get started.



Well yes, there is that aesthetic factor.

Several here on the forums will tout a vertical centre as being superior, but frankly, the vertical dispersion and horizontal dispersion compared to a traditional centre (or rather the VP150 with a different driver layout) is just not the same.
Which is better can only be determined by the listener, but IMO, a vertical centre channel is not as good off axis left and right as the VP150.
If you have different chair heights (like a raised platform seating arrangement) you will also find that a vertical centre sound changes with vertical displacement of the listener.

So where would you put a vertical centre then?
I imagine it would only stand in the way of your setup being set in the middle of the screen.

I'll comment on my comments.

I don't for one second mean to lesson the quality of the VP150. The whole weak link in the system comment is, as you say, only a comment from others. In thier case, I think they were driving the M80's very hard and they just wanted the 150 to be able to keep up and in thier case, it would not. I am not using thier comments to form my opinion, but rather, taking it into consideration, not as fact, but somthing to check out that's all. My ears will ultimatly be the judge. Heck, I may end up with the 150. (I do love the looks of it.) It just made sence to me that the more matched the front sound stage was, the more seamless the transitions across the screen would be and the more equal the seperation in DVD/A and SACD music. I have had smaller centers and have had larger ported centers. I have always used a sub and usually end up with the XO set between 40-80 depending on the system. "I" can tell a big difference between smaller and larger ported centers in vocals. I have never asked my center to act like a big main channel, but I do expect them to reproduce a deep male vocal or the hit of a drum tom-tom without help from the sub.

No, no. Not joining any cults. It's just that what he said made sence and from my own experience, I could hear what he was talking about. I wasn't just following him like a sheep.

No different chair heights. Most of the time it's just me in the middle. Tweeter at ear height. If I end up with the M60 as a center, it will go just below the bottom of my screen, not in front of the screen. Yes, it's kinda high, but it works and keeps heads well out range shadow head puppet theater.

I sincerely appreciate your thoughs. I might have them throw in a 150 with my order so I can do an official A/B comparrison. I didn't mean to make anyone feel like they needed to defend the 150 as I am sure it can hold its own, I only wanted some thoughts from people who had a vertical center setup. I guess I am just pretty dang excited and I am just wanting to talk about it a little. Within a couple of weeks, I will know what is fact and what is fiction "in my own room."

Until then, I will try to remain silent.

No need to "remain silent", asking questions is what this forum is for, just be prepared for various points of view, which to me is a good thing, so that you can decide for yourself what your preference is. I asked a similar question myself a couple of months ago(VP150 vs 2xM22). Generally speaking, all Axiom speakers are designed with the same philosophy, so whichever centre you go with I don't believe you'll have any timbral(is that a word?) problems. Keep in mind, centre channels are primarily there for dialogue/clarity, as has already been mentioned.

I've owned two different vp150's through the years, one with my m60's and now the v2 series with my m80's, I've never found it lacking or a "weak link" in the chain.

Many of those people on "other" forums have never heard the Axioms, let alone the vp150, pretty much hearsay from my many years at AVSforum.

For movies, the purpose of the center channel is for dialog, which the 150 is more than adequate. Really no need for it to "keep up" with the 80's in that respect. For multi channel music, again voice or dialog only, which it is amazing.

The m60 would be fine, but no reason to count out the 150, which is not a MTM design.

Hi FN,

First, welcome to the forum. Although I haven’t listened to every horizontal center in existence of those I have listened to I’ve yet to find one I liked. While not everyone notices or is bothered by the tonal differences inherent in differently designed speakers I am (thankfully I don’t see the DLP rainbow thing). Now when you amplify those tonal differences by differing placement between the L/R and C it drives me nuts.

In all fairness to the VP150 I didn’t notice the tonal difference with the M80s at first. But once I compared a multi-channel SACD and stereo CD and realized that the front soundstage sounded better without the center, then I started noticing the difference in almost everything. The biggest problem area for me is male voices. For me horizontal center speakers make male voices sound flat and lifeless (it’s also the same with some music) in comparison to vertical tower and bookshelf speakers.

I tried the recommendations in this article:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/tips_center_channel_sound.html

I found that moving all 3 front speakers away from reflective surfaces, sitting farther away and using a 80Hz crossover helped considerably but I was still bothered by the tonal difference.

Just so those reading this don’t think this is unique to the VP150 here’s an article that tested other speakers.

Intro:
http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/vertical-vs-horizontal-speaker-designs

Conclusion:
http://www.audioholics.com/education/lou...evaluation.html

Some people tout their center speaker as sounding as good as their tower mains the AV123 Rocket RSC200 comes to mind. To which I say, then why don’t you recommend to new buyers just to get 3 RSC200s and save lots of $$$$.$$ over the towers. I have yet to see anyone advocating using 3 horizontal center speakers crossed over at 80Hz across the front which if they sounded just as good as towers and cost lots less would make sense.

I’m curious why you are ordering a M60 rather than a M80 as a center. I believe the cabinet heights are the same. I trust jakewash’s assessment that the M60 worked great but if you don’t already have a M60 to use why not order an M80 just for piece of mind? For that matter you could always order a VP150 too and do the comparison yourself. I believe the return shipping for a VP150 is only about 20 USD.

Just to recap here are the relative advantages I’ve notice between the VP150, M22 and M80 centers when matched with M80 mains.

VP150
- ease of placement.
- less expensive than M80

M22
- less expensive than M80 and VP150
- male voices sound more natural.
- better tonal balance (pans across the front smoother).

M80
- male voices sound more natural.
- better tonal balance (pans across the front smoother).
- better dynamic impact across the front by using 60Hz or 40Hz crossover.

Cheers,
Dean

Newbie, don't be alarmed, Chess did not mean to go after you. I think his point is that many people here use the 150 without issue when compared to M80s and M60s. I don't agree with his global statement that a center is less critical, than the sides. I'm too lazy to pull it up, but I think something like 80% of a movie's sound is center channel. And if the M60 will recreate audio in the 80hz to 350 range better than a 150, then you gain from it. I have never heard that movie studios remove the bass or mid-bass from the center channel. If they do, and no deep mid-bass and bass goes the center, then fine. Otherwise, i can't agree as the M60 should be "better" than the 150.
The VP150 clearly does a fine job and would (and does) suffice for many great HT. But you won't be any worse off with M60. I think this setup would sound great and most people would do it if center channels were not a difficult fit in a vertical setup in most systems. I expect the M60 to sound very close to the M80 and your HT should sound great. I would expect the M60 to be better than the 150 in almost every respect, although the difference is likely only found at the edges of their performance.

Let us know how it sounds. Surround audio should rock and all sounds moving across the screen should be completely smooth.

Edit: never mind, Grunt has real information to offer. My opinion is rather useless compared to his experience - because he generally agrees with me.