Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Anybody using an M60 as a center?

I am going to order a pair of M80's and an M60 for use as a center. Has anyone used an M60 as a center?

I am assuming that this will sound great, but was just curious to hear from one of you that had done this.

I have had my share of using the standard MTM/horizontal design, but have never truly been satisfied. From what I have read, the MTM design is more a matter of physical functionality than the best design for the task, hence why I have decided to go vertical.

Thanks for your thoughts!

P.s. I am a fairly seasoned AV VET, but totally new to Axiom.
I am REALLY HAPPY to become a part of the Axiom family.

Cheers.
FN

(edit)
Details on my room...
L W H
36x14x8 = 4000cf+-

I sit back from the center roughly 15' (However the room is much deeper.)
L&R mains are 11' apart.
Screen size is 109"

Welcome to the forum.

I ran an M60 with M80's for a couple of days before I sent the pair of M60s back and I thought it was amazing, much better than the VP150 or even an M22 as a center. I know Dean(grunt) on this forum is running an M80 as a center and seems to really like it.

Have you considered or tried the VP150?
It is not a traditional centre design and compared to the other centre channels i've heard. Its wide dispersion has been far superior.
Some people use two, one above and one below the image unit.

Yes, I have considered the VP150, but honestly, from what other opinions I have read, it was the weak part in others systems when paired with the M80's. I am used to larger ported centers, with a good deal of mid and more bass and I fear that the VP150 might not "do it for me."

I also really want to try a vertical center per the recomendation of Jim Smith, the author of "Get Better Sound."
He is very, very anti "any" horizontally alligned speaker.

I'm sure that I "personally" would like the VP150. From many of the reviews I have read, it's one heck of a center, but I am more curions that anything. And from the picture above, it just looks cool!

By the way, I have no way of placing a VP150 above and below as suggested. If I had an aqoustically tranparent screen, then yes, I would consider it for sure.

I'm not sure where this came from but i personally cannot say i've seen such a comment.
It really would only be a comment IMO. I wouldn't read into this so much.



I'm not really sure what people expect from a centre channel. It's primary duty is to relay vocals, anchoring the left and right channels across a front soundstage.
It's purpose is not to provide bass or the sound range expected from the main speakers.
I've never understood why people seem to think they are "missing" something because the surround speakers and centre channel are not as large and big as the main fronts.


So you're taking the advice of a biased person?
That's how cults get started.



Well yes, there is that aesthetic factor.

Several here on the forums will tout a vertical centre as being superior, but frankly, the vertical dispersion and horizontal dispersion compared to a traditional centre (or rather the VP150 with a different driver layout) is just not the same.
Which is better can only be determined by the listener, but IMO, a vertical centre channel is not as good off axis left and right as the VP150.
If you have different chair heights (like a raised platform seating arrangement) you will also find that a vertical centre sound changes with vertical displacement of the listener.

So where would you put a vertical centre then?
I imagine it would only stand in the way of your setup being set in the middle of the screen.

I'll comment on my comments.

I don't for one second mean to lesson the quality of the VP150. The whole weak link in the system comment is, as you say, only a comment from others. In thier case, I think they were driving the M80's very hard and they just wanted the 150 to be able to keep up and in thier case, it would not. I am not using thier comments to form my opinion, but rather, taking it into consideration, not as fact, but somthing to check out that's all. My ears will ultimatly be the judge. Heck, I may end up with the 150. (I do love the looks of it.) It just made sence to me that the more matched the front sound stage was, the more seamless the transitions across the screen would be and the more equal the seperation in DVD/A and SACD music. I have had smaller centers and have had larger ported centers. I have always used a sub and usually end up with the XO set between 40-80 depending on the system. "I" can tell a big difference between smaller and larger ported centers in vocals. I have never asked my center to act like a big main channel, but I do expect them to reproduce a deep male vocal or the hit of a drum tom-tom without help from the sub.

No, no. Not joining any cults. It's just that what he said made sence and from my own experience, I could hear what he was talking about. I wasn't just following him like a sheep.

No different chair heights. Most of the time it's just me in the middle. Tweeter at ear height. If I end up with the M60 as a center, it will go just below the bottom of my screen, not in front of the screen. Yes, it's kinda high, but it works and keeps heads well out range shadow head puppet theater.

I sincerely appreciate your thoughs. I might have them throw in a 150 with my order so I can do an official A/B comparrison. I didn't mean to make anyone feel like they needed to defend the 150 as I am sure it can hold its own, I only wanted some thoughts from people who had a vertical center setup. I guess I am just pretty dang excited and I am just wanting to talk about it a little. Within a couple of weeks, I will know what is fact and what is fiction "in my own room."

Until then, I will try to remain silent.

No need to "remain silent", asking questions is what this forum is for, just be prepared for various points of view, which to me is a good thing, so that you can decide for yourself what your preference is. I asked a similar question myself a couple of months ago(VP150 vs 2xM22). Generally speaking, all Axiom speakers are designed with the same philosophy, so whichever centre you go with I don't believe you'll have any timbral(is that a word?) problems. Keep in mind, centre channels are primarily there for dialogue/clarity, as has already been mentioned.

I've owned two different vp150's through the years, one with my m60's and now the v2 series with my m80's, I've never found it lacking or a "weak link" in the chain.

Many of those people on "other" forums have never heard the Axioms, let alone the vp150, pretty much hearsay from my many years at AVSforum.

For movies, the purpose of the center channel is for dialog, which the 150 is more than adequate. Really no need for it to "keep up" with the 80's in that respect. For multi channel music, again voice or dialog only, which it is amazing.

The m60 would be fine, but no reason to count out the 150, which is not a MTM design.

Hi FN,

First, welcome to the forum. Although I haven’t listened to every horizontal center in existence of those I have listened to I’ve yet to find one I liked. While not everyone notices or is bothered by the tonal differences inherent in differently designed speakers I am (thankfully I don’t see the DLP rainbow thing). Now when you amplify those tonal differences by differing placement between the L/R and C it drives me nuts.

In all fairness to the VP150 I didn’t notice the tonal difference with the M80s at first. But once I compared a multi-channel SACD and stereo CD and realized that the front soundstage sounded better without the center, then I started noticing the difference in almost everything. The biggest problem area for me is male voices. For me horizontal center speakers make male voices sound flat and lifeless (it’s also the same with some music) in comparison to vertical tower and bookshelf speakers.

I tried the recommendations in this article:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/tips_center_channel_sound.html

I found that moving all 3 front speakers away from reflective surfaces, sitting farther away and using a 80Hz crossover helped considerably but I was still bothered by the tonal difference.

Just so those reading this don’t think this is unique to the VP150 here’s an article that tested other speakers.

Intro:
http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/vertical-vs-horizontal-speaker-designs

Conclusion:
http://www.audioholics.com/education/lou...evaluation.html

Some people tout their center speaker as sounding as good as their tower mains the AV123 Rocket RSC200 comes to mind. To which I say, then why don’t you recommend to new buyers just to get 3 RSC200s and save lots of $$$$.$$ over the towers. I have yet to see anyone advocating using 3 horizontal center speakers crossed over at 80Hz across the front which if they sounded just as good as towers and cost lots less would make sense.

I’m curious why you are ordering a M60 rather than a M80 as a center. I believe the cabinet heights are the same. I trust jakewash’s assessment that the M60 worked great but if you don’t already have a M60 to use why not order an M80 just for piece of mind? For that matter you could always order a VP150 too and do the comparison yourself. I believe the return shipping for a VP150 is only about 20 USD.

Just to recap here are the relative advantages I’ve notice between the VP150, M22 and M80 centers when matched with M80 mains.

VP150
- ease of placement.
- less expensive than M80

M22
- less expensive than M80 and VP150
- male voices sound more natural.
- better tonal balance (pans across the front smoother).

M80
- male voices sound more natural.
- better tonal balance (pans across the front smoother).
- better dynamic impact across the front by using 60Hz or 40Hz crossover.

Cheers,
Dean

Newbie, don't be alarmed, Chess did not mean to go after you. I think his point is that many people here use the 150 without issue when compared to M80s and M60s. I don't agree with his global statement that a center is less critical, than the sides. I'm too lazy to pull it up, but I think something like 80% of a movie's sound is center channel. And if the M60 will recreate audio in the 80hz to 350 range better than a 150, then you gain from it. I have never heard that movie studios remove the bass or mid-bass from the center channel. If they do, and no deep mid-bass and bass goes the center, then fine. Otherwise, i can't agree as the M60 should be "better" than the 150.
The VP150 clearly does a fine job and would (and does) suffice for many great HT. But you won't be any worse off with M60. I think this setup would sound great and most people would do it if center channels were not a difficult fit in a vertical setup in most systems. I expect the M60 to sound very close to the M80 and your HT should sound great. I would expect the M60 to be better than the 150 in almost every respect, although the difference is likely only found at the edges of their performance.

Let us know how it sounds. Surround audio should rock and all sounds moving across the screen should be completely smooth.

Edit: never mind, Grunt has real information to offer. My opinion is rather useless compared to his experience - because he generally agrees with me.

I also listen to many SACD and DVD-As, and I concur that a lot more comes out of the center than just vocals. I originally went with three M60s across the front and it wasn't until I went to lower the gain on the subwoofer (sounded great but was a little on the powerful side) that I noticed it had been disabled in the Rx. Had to move the speakers farther from the wall to control the bass! That was pretty cool. The tower center also obviates any sort of stand or mount under my screen, as all my gear is on the side closer to the projector.

I did upgrade to two M80s (no really logical reason - the 60s were great) but kept the M60 center [better than the Paradigm Cin 330 (which I found better than most seem to give it credit for)]. I've never noticed any off axis dispersion problems with either center channel, so that wasn't really a factor. Mostly I just wanted it.

For music the tower is fantastic, for movies it probably isn't really necessary, but certainly does a wonderful job. I'm really happy with the decision and recommend to anyone with a screen 38" off the ground and an extra $100 to give it a try.

Thanks for that info. I never bothered to notice the difference in the specs and just thought they were the same size.

I’m sort of lucky I already have the M80s since I can adjust the screen size to them. Actually they are the only thing keeping the screen size down to something a reasonably priced projector can illuminate.

Yeah, I just have a 92" but it's as high up on the wall as it can go and an M80 would cast a shadow, but the 60 is just right.

Just 2 quick comments......

SirQuack - I read all the reviews on this site - in fact, I have reread them many times. One of the reveiws comments on the 150's off axis performance - stating that just moving to one end of the couch or the other that there is a noticeable drop in performance. I would be interested in your or other's opinions in your real life situtations?

Second.....for those that are discussing the merits of going to an M60 or M80 as a center, is anyone suggesting a horizontal setup as opposed to a vertical set up?.........Rob

You won't find anyone using a horizontal tower--the dispersion pattern would be wrong. Not to mention that the towers (and bookshelves) are angled on both sides.

Yes, I thought about the both the dispersion and angle angle (so to speak) - as for the angle part, there are some clever people on here that I feel sure could get around the angle part - but then the dispersion would be off........

All I can say is that I have 2 rows of seating, 3 lazy boys up front, and a couch on the elevated back row that could hold 4 people. I've never really experienced any major drop in performance when sitting in the left/right locations. I'm sure there are limits with any speaker, including the M60's or M80's, when you go beyond the soundstage. However, if everything is set up properly at ear level, or aimed at ear level, you'll be happy. Most people can't use a tower for a center.

Regarding your m60 to m80 upgrade, did you find it worthwhile?
I'm torn between the two. If I do get the m80 I will probably have to put a stereo power amp for them. My AVR supports 6-8ohm.

Forever Newbie,

If you have the space for the m60 or better yet a m80 (to match your m80's as fronts) for the center then by all means you should get one. It is only about a $100 premium for the m60 and a $200 premium for the m80 which should be more than worth it. The only reason that most people don't do it is because it is difficult to fit a tower in the center position. Heck I would have a hard to putting an m2 in the center position, which is why I went with a vp150 for the center. Even with a dedicated home theater room and a projector screen I would have a hard time going with a tower in the center position since it would put the screen up too high for me. I would get a stiff neck watching a screen that high. But, I don't think anyone can argue that a vp150 would be better than a m60 or m80 as a center.

- Nick

What is your AVR?

Worthwhile is hard to measure. If you are torn I'd say go M80, otherwise you'll spend all of your time together wondering, "what if?". The difference when upgrading was about C$300 plus a loss of the 5% shipping discount because only two items were being sent in the second shipment (the discount originates from the shipping co). So if, like me, you always wonder "what if?" it makes financial sense to go all the way from the get go. For me the M60s were an experiment with the M82 concept (simulcast with M22s) which ended up as a marginal improvement not worth the hassle. Doing it this way allowed me to deal with both "what ifs?" at the same time. I also got a great pair of M22s for the computer set-up.

As for the AVR, almost all say 6-8 ohm and almost all have little problem with 4 ohm. It all depends on how loud you push them. I've played M80s with Sherwood Newcastle, Denon, and Yamaha to my loud listening levels with no problems (I live alone with the theatre in the basement, so no external restrictions).


Edited to add: I guess I should state that, although the M60s weren't really lacking anything, I believe the M80s are better speakers worth the extra ~$350. An extra $600? Maybe, maybe not.

since you also have the m22, can you tell me is there is a big change from m22+sub to m80+sub? My wife gave the green flag to order the m80s but she's relying on my 'it's supposed to great' assessment. I want to know if this is a 40% improvement or 5% improvement.. if it's like 3-10%, I may spend my money elsewhere.. like another qs8 pair.

If I order them, I will also put them on my computer..

thanks again

SirQuack,
Thanks for the response - I was hoping you were going to say something like that. Vertical placement is not an option for me. I went to your website - excellent set up *he says with a touch of envy*. Can you tell me what finish your first set of M60s was?.....Rob

Doing a near field comparison I'd say the SQ in general is similar with the M80s+ sounding "fuller", but in a large room (mine is 36x14?) I'd definitely go with the M80s. The 22s+ sound good but "thinner" in that area. If you are using them for a 2.1 or 5.1 system on the computer in a small room (my office is 10x12) the M22 is a no brainer.

Rob - I agree with Sirquack’s and chesseroo’s comments that the off axis performance of the VP150 is fine. I’ve sat fairly close 6-7 feet and never noticed any problems moving horizontally 4-5 feet off center. No changes in tone and no “lobbing” effects. The only dispersion issue I’ve noticed with horizontal centers is a sort of “wall-of-sound” effect when sitting fairly close which actually enhances the “movie theater” effect and is only a small issue with some recordings.

LucRaymond - My experience with both the M80s and M22s is the same as doormat’s. In a small to even medium room I think the M22+sub will give you 95% or more of what the M80+sub does. As the room gets bigger the M80s work progressively better.

I will also agree that in the smaller rooms M22+sub is most likely the best/cheapest way to go, if you have always wanted floorstanders and feel the M22s are missing something, like I did, then by all means by the M80's they are a full range speaker and do sound that much better than M22's, IMO. You won't be sorry you bought the M80's over a second set of QS's.

I have seen this mentioned in other threads and it is usually the effect of system settings. One poster said something to the effect of "so I tried tweaking my levels for the center speaker and the problem was solved".

funny, this is the exact problem, i've read, in using a tower for the center.

what I meant is that I have a 2x22ti/2xqs8/sub in the living room and If I buy a pair of m80 for the living room, my m22 will go on my computer. The m80 will definitely be in the living room (~ 14x15)

I just wanted to know if it would be a 50% improvement or 5%.. It's a 1500$ investment, I don't want to do it for a 5-10% improvement in SQ.

It's not that I need floorstanders.. but if I'm missing something great, I will pull the trigger.

If I buy the speakers and have to explain to my wife what is supposed to be better, that's bad. If she tell me it sounds better without me saying anything, that's it, it was worth it.

When we were buying a TV set I was trying to explain the pros and cons of everything, finally we bought an optoma project and she said WOW.. no talking necessary.

She may miss the WOW with the M80s compared to the M22s in your smaller room, my wife did Her only comment was that they sounded better than the M60s when compared to the crispness of the M22.

I am going to go out on a limb and say spend your money else where and a 7.1 setup may not even give you more WOW factor. maybe increasing the subwoofer abilities would give you more WOW.

I think my sub is doing a fine job, I just find my front a little bit thin. I'm also puzzled to find how the m80 sounds when you know how good the m22 is.

Then you will like the M80s they add that little bit of upper bass that the sub + M22 seems to not have, well not as well as the M80s+sub. I did find adding a better sub helped out more than I would have thought to the equation. Once I added my PB13 Ultra and tried the M22s with it I was very surprised at just how close the M22+sub is to the M80s + sub. I still prefer the M80+sub but I am willing to bet your wife won't be wowed by the M80s unless SHE is noticing the lack of upper bass, which I am reasonably sure could be nearly rectified with a more stout performing sub.

Yeah, the 80s are an improvement, and will fill out that thinness, but if the wife doesn't notice a problem it's unlikely to floor her. For a 14x15 room it is unlikely to be a 50% improvement.

Luc, have you considered using an M60 as a center?

no I have to measure the clearance that I have below my screen.. forget that, my NEW table is in the way!

Grunt,
Thanks for confirming....One of the things about this forum that I miss when I read at work is a lot of the Avatars are blocked for some reason - probably the website where they are stored is blocked? Anyway what I would say to yours is "Always with the negative vibes, Moriarity, Always with the negative vibes"........

You guys are probably thinking that i am nuts but i would love to see an M80 Horizontal speaker. probably a modified version but i would give it a try instead of the vp 150 hanging over the screen. thoughts anyone? Alan?

My favorite “war” movie of all time, and the character definitely fits me…well ok most people think I’m far odder than Oddball. What’s funny to me is how many people not only remember the movie but can quote lines from it. I never realized it was such a “cult” classic.

Woof, Woof, Woof.
That’s my other dog imitation,
Dean

Forget horizontal, M80s do it standing up.

Dean,
Kelly's Heroes is one of my absolute favs as well. My 2 favorite characters are Oddball and the General played by Carrol O'Conner (fitting for St. Pat's Day). The scene that comes to mind is when he is listening to the battle on the radio and his adjutant walks into the room - O'Conner says "Shhhh!, We've got the GAME on here". I use that line all the time....