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#251786 - 03/15/09 02:12 PM Re: SC-05, in the house. [Re: PeterChenoweth]
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4733
Loc: western canada
That was a good review of the Pioneer, very helpful.

I am also considering retiring our Onkyo 797 from 2002. I plan on going to a 7.1 setup and our unit is not so featured.
I also want to consider some of the newer sound formats (or newer video switching capabilities) for the same and again, the older Onkyo is out of date in this regard.
It also has a global crossover but it is sadly also fixed (either on or off at 80Hz), so i don't use it.

We're looking into possibly getting another Onkyo and an external amp (again future considerations for power requirements of various speakers, and more of them).
It was interesting to read how the newer Pioneers still seem to have some of the same, 'outdated' features from 2002. I would never have guessed.
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"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#251805 - 03/15/09 05:52 PM Re: SC-05, in the house. [Re: chesseroo]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
That is my feeling as well, Chess..

I've spent some more time today with the SC-05 and my enthusiasm for it is waning. The sound quality is phenomenal, without question. When I sit back and just enjoy the music, I'm very happy.

But there are a lot of features in the SC-05 that really aren't that much more advanced than what were in my Pioneer Elite VSX-43TX, circa 2001-2002. And in that sense, I'm not really sure it's worth the upgrade...

And that's the dilemma. Sounds great, but just a little lacking in the setup arena.
_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office

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#251809 - 03/15/09 06:34 PM Re: SC-05, in the house. [Re: PeterChenoweth]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
Just pulled the trigger on an Onkyo TX-SR876. It should be here Tuesday. I figure that the only want to make sure I get what I want is to try them both. I expect to keep this AVR for at least 5 or 6 years - hopefully longer. So I want to make sure I get the right one that meets my needs.

I'll let everyone know how the 876 stacks up against the SC-05.
_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office

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#251817 - 03/15/09 08:03 PM Re: SC-05, in the house. [Re: PeterChenoweth]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6559
Loc: It's all about the location.
Congratulations Peter, keep us informed.
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A person convinced against their will is of the same opinion still.

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#251820 - 03/15/09 08:13 PM Re: SC-05, in the house. [Re: Adrian]
Zimm Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 1361
Loc: New Orleans
Yep, let us know.
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Panny 3000 PJ, 118" Carada, Denon 3300, PS3, Axiom QS8, PSB 5T, B&W sub, levitating speaker wire

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#251905 - 03/16/09 11:57 AM Re: SC-05, in the house. [Re: Zimm]
Zimm Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 1361
Loc: New Orleans
I'm "kinda" in the market for a new AVR, and following Peter's search has helped target my questions. I was looking at the NAD AVR's, having heard they make great amp sections. Obviously, one of the big points in the AVR market now is the video chip - Silicon Optix v. DCDi, most notably. But as Peter mentioned, many of us many not need to upscale the video. So I found the following interesting. The Flagship T785 does not have an up-scaling chip at all! This is their reasoning, and I must say it resonates with me, as it makes me think my money would go to parts I would use, rather than an upscaler I don't need for 1080p sources:
 Quote:
NAD has secured the latest version of V1.3 HDMI technology from Analog Devices. All input resolutions (480i, 576i, 720p, 1080i and 1080p) are supported at the output with cross conversion of analog formats between Composite, S-Video and Component video. Further, all existing analog inputs are also available for up-conversion to HDMI output. Output resolution always matches input resolution: perfectly.

With respect to adjunct video processing, NAD has decided to exclude "format conversion" in order to sustain the maximum video performance that exists from the source. This means that the NAD only changes formats, and passes the native resolution, without adding any of the "conversion artifacts" generated by this scheme of signal processing.

For best overall system performance, onboard video processing is not included. While onboard video processing is considered a popular feature by some of NAD's competitors, it is just as likely that you will end up with an inferior picture, because a digital processor is substituting the missing pixels with "virtual guesses" rather than actual data. Additionally, reprocessing already processed video can cause obvious picture distortion. Finally, many if not all fixed pixel displays already provide a scaling solution engineered specifically for the native resolution of their product.

Very interesting. This has me rethinking things and puts NAD on my short list of AVRs. Also impressive, is that they list their FTC power as 200w/ch into 7, but explain that by their methods it is only 120 watts, but that those watts are guaranteed to be there at all times. Amazing, FTC rating can be off by almost 40% compared to real power. What does that tell us about the many 100w/c FTC rated AVRs.
_________________________
Panny 3000 PJ, 118" Carada, Denon 3300, PS3, Axiom QS8, PSB 5T, B&W sub, levitating speaker wire

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#251907 - 03/16/09 12:05 PM Re: SC-05, in the house. [Re: Zimm]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11064
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
Upscaling isn't important to me, but I'd still call that spin. Yes, the added pixels are "guesses," but that's the whole point. Maximum video performance comes from having high-definition sources that don't need the guesses, not from having unmolested standard definition. They just wanted to save money and charge you more for it.
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#251909 - 03/16/09 12:08 PM Re: SC-05, in the house. [Re: CV]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
That's my thought too, CV.

My same complaint with the 'we-don't-touch-the-HDMI-inputs' attitude of the Pioneer Elite. Just like NAD. But Denon, Onkyo, etc, don't seem to have a problem doing it. And the feature is defeatable for the purists.

I'm torn about the issue. On the one hand, I understand the need for purity. Leave the video upscaling to the video devices, and let the AVR handle the audio processing. But on the other hand, I want the ability to upscale if I need it. Of course, that $180 Oppo DVD player has an amazing upscaler, and if I'd just break down and buy one of those then my AVR upscaling ability would be a moot point (as would my SACD issues....)

But that's a key reason why I ordered the 876. I intend to really take a hard look at what its Reon chip can do. If it makes an improvement (to DVD's and 1080i HD TV) then I'll keep it. If it doesn't, then I'll send the 876 back and get a 3808.

At this point in time, my feeling is that the SC-05 may end up being returned. Unless, of course, I discover that the amp sections of the 876/3808 turn out to be underwhelming compared to the '05. The 05's sound quality really is magnificent, and as my wife points out, isn't that really the point of all of this? Decisions decisions. \:\)
_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office

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#251915 - 03/16/09 12:22 PM Re: SC-05, in the house. [Re: PeterChenoweth]
Zimm Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 1361
Loc: New Orleans
I hear you, I have been traveling that road a long time. But for me, I plan to get a projector. It will upscale all sources. I don't want to process the image twice, and my primary sources is 1080p BluRay. The cable TV is 1080i, but I'd trust the video section of a good projector over the video section of a good amp. So, assuming my money is not just being taken , I like the idea of putting it into the amp section. Notice I edited my post to add a blurb about the power ratings.

Good stuff guys, this discussion is really helping me.
_________________________
Panny 3000 PJ, 118" Carada, Denon 3300, PS3, Axiom QS8, PSB 5T, B&W sub, levitating speaker wire

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#251917 - 03/16/09 12:31 PM Re: SC-05, in the house. [Re: Zimm]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
My problem is that I really have no basis for comparison of upscalers. I've not seen a 'good' one. I've not seen a 'bad' one. I've read reviews but it really doesn't do much for me. I need to see it in my own living room to really understand.

My DVD/SACD player is a Denon 1920 that upscales to 480p via a Faroudja chip. It looks fine to me. Not BR quality but ok. DVD's on the PS3 to 1080P look about the same. I can't really tell a difference.

My Dish box upscales everything to 1080i. That's the primary source I'm curious about w/ a better upscaler. I don't know if sending that signal through an AVR's upscaler to 1080p will make any difference, + or -.

My AppleTV outputs everything at 1080p, and it looks *really* good, IMHO. Even SD movies look better than DVD. And the HD movies look fantastic. As good as HDTV and nearly as good as BluRay. It just doesn't have the new lossless HD audio formats.


_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office

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