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#252432 - 03/18/09 03:15 PM Re: More thoughts [Re: jakewash]
Zimm Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 1361
Loc: New Orleans
In theory, that should not happen, assuming a free flow of information. I think the opposite is more likely. With the often recited assumption that all AVRs and amps sound almost identical (regardless of a single 8 channel DAC v. four 2 ch DACs, and 10K farad v. 60K farad capacities, etc.), I think the improvements would be lost in the shuffle and these companies will suffer dearly. From reading the Rotel site with great interest, I can tell you that they did nothing to convince me to go with Rotel over NAD, or Denon, etc. They don't even address the lack of video processing, which at least NAD did explain - whether the buyer believes them or not.

Some would say the Rotel v. Denon is an apples to oranges comparison. But that is my point. If you want my $2000 you better tell me why the orange is so much much sweeter than an apple. Lots of people are enjoying the apples these days.
_________________________
Panny 3000 PJ, 118" Carada, Denon 3300, PS3, Axiom QS8, PSB 5T, B&W sub, levitating speaker wire

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#252435 - 03/18/09 03:22 PM Re: More thoughts [Re: Zimm]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10831
Loc: Central NH
I'm hungry.
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#252442 - 03/18/09 03:42 PM Re: More thoughts [Re: MarkSJohnson]
Zimm Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 1361
Loc: New Orleans
 Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson
I'm hungry.


Yeah, I kinda got that too!
_________________________
Panny 3000 PJ, 118" Carada, Denon 3300, PS3, Axiom QS8, PSB 5T, B&W sub, levitating speaker wire

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#252511 - 03/18/09 09:50 PM Re: TX-SR876, in the house (and back in the box) [Re: PeterChenoweth]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10360
Peter, I realize that your experience must be a little irritating, but rather than sending it back "ASAP" it might be a better idea to find out what's really wrong. You can be sure that in your comparison with a pure direct mode in effect and MCAAC, Audyssey or other processing intended to change the sound not present that the sound of music through the 876 would be as pleasant as it is through the Pioneer if the unit was operating properly. The independent professional testers and users who've praised it aren't crazy or lying. Since it wasn't, that clearly indicates that the unit wasn't operating up to spec and may have been damaged in shipping or been defective from the factory(should have tried a factory refurb). No receivers from major manufacturers these days(even $100 units)play music in a "harsh", "screechy", "muffled" etc. manner unless something is seriously wrong.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#252526 - 03/19/09 12:04 AM Re: TX-SR876, in the house (and back in the box) [Re: JohnK]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
Thanks for the advice John.

The experience isn't irritating, I'm having fun. ;\)

The sound was just different, and we simply preferred the SC-05. I know you're a pretty big proponent of amps not sounding any different from each other, and that's your opinion (and many others!), so I respect that. But from the experiences that I've had in HT, I respectfully disagree.

Bypassing *all* of the processing, listening to analog-only SACD sound, the SC-05 and 876 sound different. The most telling example was when listening to our SACD of Janine Jansen playing Vivaldi's Four Seasons, specifically, the third movement, Presto. There are some very violent violin runs in there, about halfway through that end with some very peaky highs. With the SC-05, at those high-frequency peaks, it still sounds like a violin. It's angry, agressive, and sharp, but there's still a beautiful smoothness to it. It's passion. With the 876, those same peaks (at the same volume, according to the db meter), are much sharper with a grating 'ccccshhhh' of sibilance, with a complete breakdown of any smoothness to it. It's not imagined, it's not just 'kind of there', it's went from being a highly emotional musical moment to just a blast of high frequency noise that made me wince. Not cool. My wife, unprompted in any way by me, also said that the SQ was too harsh for her liking before I gave her any opinion.

But yes, I agree with you that it is absolutely possible that something was wrong with my 876. Or perhaps this was some sort of manifestation of problems driving M80's. I left the 876 in 6-ohm mode, per suggestions on AVS, so maybe something was going on there. Who knows. The bottom line is that if that 876 was defective, then I guess I'll never know what a 'good' one sounds like because I'm not dealing with Onkyo's customer service on a brand new unit. Not going there if I don't have to.

But whether it's defective, or unable to drive M80's effectively, or there was some phantom DSP at work (whether pro on the SC-05's side or con on the 876's), or it just simply doesn't sound as good to us, it didn't make the cut for us. Simply put, it just didn't impress us enough to part with a thousand bucks. Neither the audio nor the video nor the features in general. Maybe that's unfair to the 876. Maybe I should spend a few more hours tinkering with it. But I really don't want to, so it loses. That's how it works sometimes.

The SC-05 "just works" and its SQ continues to impress.

Maybe I'm just subconsciously psycho-acoustically brainwashed to prefer the Pioneer. Anything is possible, I guess. Though if we bring psychology into it, I actually really wanted to prefer the Onkyo because of it's greater feature set. I had high hopes that the Reala would blow me away and that the SQ would be fantastic. It also just has more toys, like HD Radio and the pretty GUI. And also simply because it's easier to return the SC-05 to the local Best Buy than it is to ship the 876 back to Amazon.

But I'm not done. We're going to check out a local HT store that sells Rotel and NAD gear this weekend. I'm skeptical that they'll have anything that will convince me to part with even more money on an AVR/prepro. But we're going to check it out. One never knows what they'll have on sale. ;\)

And the 3808 is still a very viable option too. \:\)
_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office

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#252531 - 03/19/09 12:18 AM Re: TX-SR876, in the house (and back in the box) [Re: PeterChenoweth]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13318
Loc: Iowa
Peter, sorry your having issues. I'm sure things will work out for you in the end. I've read lots of rave reviews on the new Onkyos, so your feedback is a bit puzzling. I have not read this entire thread, but were these harsh results with Audyssey engaged? If so, my guess is the calibration, mic placement, or number of locations was done wrong.

Anyway, I know what your saying. Sometimes you just don't want to spend a lot of time getting something to work. Reminds me of the problems I had with Emotiva. The only difference is I gave them 3 months of screwing around with me before I said enough is enough.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#252533 - 03/19/09 12:22 AM Re: TX-SR876, in the house (and back in the box) [Re: SirQuack]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
Nah, don't be sorry. I'm having fun trying stuff out. It just didn't work out for me, NBD. I'm puzzled about it too, as I've read many great reviews of the 876.

For PCM music, I tried it with Audyssey both on and off. I was not really that impressed by what it was doing. I'll freely admit that I did not tinker with it for a great length of time, so it's very likely that there's more to if I had given it more of a chance. Though I followed the instructions on setting it up (and 876-specific tips from AVS) to the letter.

The bulk of my criticism of the 876 stems from what I heard via straight multi-channel analog SACD inputs, which is not processed by Audyssey. Maybe I'm just the only fool who still has an analog-only SACD player, trying to use the analog-input stage of an 876. ;\)
_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office

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#252547 - 03/19/09 06:32 AM Re: TX-SR876, in the house (and back in the box) [Re: PeterChenoweth]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10831
Loc: Central NH
Peter, did you also try the Onkyo at the 8 Ohm setting?

I would be curious if, under the same approximate volume levels that you were using the other night, if you ran a test whereby you switched back and forth between the 6 Ohm setting and the 8 Ohm setting, you would find a difference.... i.e., a clipping problem.

I don't "do" AVS, so I'm not sure what was talked about over there, but here the concensus has always been to leave anything and everything in the 8 Ohm position so as to not limit the output capability.

Any chance that what you were somewhat describing as a crescendo simply drove the Onkyo into clipping?
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#252564 - 03/19/09 09:12 AM Re: TX-SR876, in the house (and back in the box) [Re: MarkSJohnson]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
Sure, it could have been the start of the amp running out of juice. But I thought that clipping usually manifested itself with the bass frequencies giving out. I certainly could be wrong about that. It was the high end that was especially problematic for us, and it wasn't at what I would consider 'reference' levels of volume. Peaks were hitting at about 85db at my listening position.

With my old Elite 43TX that seems to struggle with my M80's, it's the low end that really starts to fall apart when the volume levels are pushed, and that starts to happen at 90+db.

The only two options are 4 ohm and 6+ ohm, so there isn't a discrete 8-ohm speaker setting. I did try the 4 ohm mode, just to see what it would do. It didn't seem to make any difference, either in volume or SQ. And yes, leaving it in 6-ohm mode is also what is recommended over on AVS's 'official' 876 thread.

Likewise, the SC-05 has either a 6 ohm or 8+ ohm setting, which I left in 8+. 4-ohm speakers are not even recommended - they never are with Pioneer. But the SQ is clean and clear all the way out to my volume tolerance level.
_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office

Top
#252585 - 03/19/09 10:55 AM Re: TX-SR876, in the house (and back in the box) [Re: PeterChenoweth]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10831
Loc: Central NH
Aaaahhh... I didn't realize that the switch didn't have an "8 Ohm" position.

And I thought it possible that despite your hearing the issue in the "mids and highs" of the violin, that it might be an overall crescendo where other instruments (read: More "Bassy") were sucking up wattage that was just showing itself more clearly in the violin.
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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