Grills off or on sounds better?
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 274
local
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OP
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 274 |
Sorry to ask what has probably been asked ad nauseum. But, I did search first and found nothing here.
It seems that some people say some speakers sound significantly better without the grills. I just took the grills off the M22s, while listening to the radio no less, and the improvement seemed dramatic. It surprised me.
I took off one grill cause the speaker fell (when I was touching up paint on the wall). The grill got a little fold in it that I was able to fix. In other words I had no intention of listening without the grill. But they do look cool without grills - so maybe that made me think they sounded better?.
Anyone else have this experience with M22s? Is there any objective research to support this idea?
I had always thought there must be a slight improvement without grills - but not enough to bother with. Now I think otherwise.
Now back to your regularly scheduled meaningful posts.....
M22s, QS4s, M2 center, Hsu stf-1.
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Re: Grills off or on sounds better?
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,840 Likes: 13
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
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It is my understanding that the only difference MIGHT be 1dB or less in volume difference with the grills on, no improvement in sound quality would be gained from having them off.
M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350 AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB FluanceRT85
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Re: Grills off or on sounds better?
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,116
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,116 |
Hello donaldekelly,
I have always thought of speaker grills as serving a purpose as providing a layer of protection from prodding children and pets. If I didn't have pets and my living room would not get so dusty so easily I would have the grills off all the time.
If you think your speakers sound better with the covers off then by all means.
I’m armed and I’m drinking. You don’t want to listen to advice from me, amigo.
-Max Payne
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Re: Grills off or on sounds better?
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 274
local
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OP
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I suppose I should add that someone measured their (Scott?) speakers and found the graph was a little more wobbly in the higher ranges with grills on. Nothing that seems like it would make a big difference I guess - I am not real familiar with sound graphs. http://www.signalengineering.com/scott/speakers/grill-on-off.jpgWhat the guy wrote: Lucky13 12-10-2003, 11:47 PM "I clearly measured the effect of keeping the grills on my speakers (not Axioms). I suspect the proximity of the grill frame causes this rippled effect above ~3Khz. The red line is with the speaker grill off and the blue line is with it on." http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1177.htmlApparently he owned Axioms when he wrote this - maybe it is someone here?
Last edited by donaldekelly; 04/06/09 03:06 AM.
M22s, QS4s, M2 center, Hsu stf-1.
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Re: Grills off or on sounds better?
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 274
local
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OP
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If you think your speakers sound better with the covers off then by all means. Thanks for the response. I was curious as to what could be proven, though. No one has ever A/B'd them in a blind listening test? If it is all in my mind - then I won't bother. If not, then I will bother. It can be difficult to get past the placebo effect sometime.
M22s, QS4s, M2 center, Hsu stf-1.
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Re: Grills off or on sounds better?
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 274
local
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OP
local
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 274 |
It is my understanding that the only difference MIGHT be 1dB or less in volume difference with the grills on, no improvement in sound quality would be gained from having them off. You are probably correct, Sir.
M22s, QS4s, M2 center, Hsu stf-1.
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Re: Grills off or on sounds better?
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 139
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 139 |
I spoke to someone at Axiom about this some time ago. All Axiom tests are made with the grill on. This does not imply that they sound better either way. But some loudspeakers from other manufactures clearly sound more natural without the grill, and the reverse is also true. Alot depends on the design of the frames inner and outer edges.
Those who have long enjoyed such privileges as we enjoy forget in time that men died to win them.
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Re: Grills off or on sounds better?
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 374
devotee
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devotee
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 374 |
I've never noticed a difference, personally. I like the look of them more with the grills off, but I never really found a great place to store them where i didn't think they'd eventually get broken or just laying around the room. Turns out a good place to store them is on the speakers!
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Re: Grills off or on sounds better?
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,349
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,349 |
Aesthetically, I prefer mine with the grills removed. I like the look of the white cones against the dark vinyl. Acoustically though, I think they sound better with the grills on. I'd rather just leave the grills off, so my motivation would be to want to say there's no difference in sound. It's subtle, but I think there is an audible difference. I feel that the grills have some very slight affect on the highs - making them just a tiny bit smoother and more refined. And I do mean tiny - definitely on the edge between real and imagined. I've switched back and forth a dozens of times over the years. Obviously, it's one of the easiest 'tweaks' possible. It always ends up that after a week or two with the grills removed, I'll stumble across some recording that I don't think sounds quite as good as it did before. Some high note will hit me in a displeasing manner. So then I put the grills back on and the SQ returns to 'normal'. So the grills they stay on for another 2-3 months. Then I'll get the itch again to remove the grills, and the process repeats. The will to replace the grills is always from a perceived SQ loss, while the will to remove the grills is always from an aesthetic desire. So I have to conclude that there is some auditory difference; at least in my room with my gear and with my ears. Really though, it just matters as to what sounds best in your own space. As it's trivial to switch 'em, tinker at will.
Last edited by PeterChenoweth; 04/06/09 01:34 PM.
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2 SVS Pci+ 20-39 Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1 M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office
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Re: Grills off or on sounds better?
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,928
axiomite
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axiomite
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,928 |
Some speakers such as Paradigm, design their speakers and grills to be used together where others like Totem, design their speakers without grills. Overall, I'm sure most companies think of the grills more as protection from little fingers and dust particles than much else. I would suspect that "grills on" would have a minor impact on the highs, as noted.
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.
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Re: Grills off or on sounds better?
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 678
aficionado
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aficionado
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 678 |
I took the grills off of my VP150 the other night while watching a movie and I could swear that the dialogue was a little clearer. I almost never play the mains with the covers on.
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Re: Grills off or on sounds better?
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,840 Likes: 13
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
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Posts: 13,840 Likes: 13 |
ok thats it, tonight I'm going to blindfold myself, have my kid either leave them on or take them off, and see what I hear.
M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350 AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB FluanceRT85
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Re: Grills off or on sounds better?
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,458
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
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To make it scientific, they'll have to stifle their giggles!
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
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Re: Grills off or on sounds better?
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 395
devotee
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devotee
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 395 |
Personally, I have not noticed a difference with most of my Axioms. The exception was the M2. When I was using them as computer speakers I could not stand the highs with the grills off. These were the only set I had that I could see being described as "ear bleedingly bright", although that is a bit of hyperbole. I found that the grills tamed the highs fairly nicely.
The only other speakers that I have owned where the grills made a difference was the Paradigm Monitor 11. With those is was more of an overall grill benefit, not just a high note taming.
M80s/VP160/QS8s/EP350; M22s; M3s.
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Re: Grills off or on sounds better?
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 912 Likes: 4
aficionado
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aficionado
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 912 Likes: 4 |
I would like to remove the front grills from my M60's and VP150, however, and maybe this is picking too much of a nit, I find the white speaker cones somewhat distracting. In this case, I wish Axiom would change these to a black color which, in my opinion, would integrate better especially with the special dark cabinet finishes. As far as sound goes I hear little if any difference on or off. Paradigm, on the other hand over the years, with several models has integrated their grills with the speaker mounting methods to minimize diffraction.
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Re: Grills off or on sounds better?
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 31
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 31 |
Personally, I have not noticed a difference with most of my Axioms. The exception was the M2. When I was using them as computer speakers I could not stand the highs with the grills off. These were the only set I had that I could see being described as "ear bleedingly bright", although that is a bit of hyperbole. I found that the grills tamed the highs fairly nicely. I find it interesting that you would notice a large difference with the M2's, but not the others. Does Axiom use different grill fabric on the different models? That would be the only reason I can think of why there would be such a contrast to the sound of the speakers.
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Re: Grills off or on sounds better?
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 249
local
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local
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At 50 years of age and my hearing compromised approximately 350 live shows under my belt(and countless hours in a loud John Deere tractor cab) I am certainly unable to detect any difference. I like the looks of the speakers with the grills off, but with 3 kids- grills are on for the foreseeable future.
M22's, VP150, QS4's, HK 630, HSU VTF3-MKII
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Re: Grills off or on sounds better?
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,786
axiomite
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axiomite
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,786 |
(and countless hours in a loud John Deere tractor cab) Shoulda bought a Case.
Fred
------- Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!
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Re: Grills off or on sounds better?
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,379 Likes: 7
axiomite
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axiomite
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,379 Likes: 7 |
I used to notice a difference between grills-on and grills-off with homemade speakers and heavy black Radio Shack grill cloth, but don't notice a difference with my current Axioms. Then again, my ears were also 30 years younger at the time
M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39 M5HP, M40ti, Sierra-1 LFR1100 active, ADA1500-4 and -8
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Re: Grills off or on sounds better?
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 395
devotee
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devotee
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 395 |
I find it interesting that you would notice a large difference with the M2's, but not the others. Does Axiom use different grill fabric on the different models? That would be the only reason I can think of why there would be such a contrast to the sound of the speakers.
It all seems the same, so I have no idea why I would notice it only with the M2s. Could be that the other speakers are already within the range that the grills affect, or, more likely, that I'm simply out to lunch.
M80s/VP160/QS8s/EP350; M22s; M3s.
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Re: Grills off or on sounds better?
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,210
axiomite
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axiomite
Joined: Feb 2005
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(and countless hours in a loud John Deere tractor cab) The guy I work for has a couple of John Deere 4710 800 gal 60ft boom sprayers and a couple of 4720 800 gal 90ft boom sprayers and those things are darn near as comfortable to drive as most new cars, GPS, A/C and bad-ass stereo systems ... much nicer and quieter than our spray planes. I've never really listened for a difference with the grills on or off, can't remember the last time ours were off. The speakers do have a much more aggressive or meaner look to them grilless though, I believe.
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