Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Big Room High Ceiling

Help! I just received my M60s as my zone 2 speakers. I know these speakers carry plenty of bass and sound great w/o sub since I have already listened to them in zone 1. The zone 2 room is large (25 x 35) with high ceiling (22+) that sounds from the M60s were simply getting "lost" (diminished low, pronounced high). Any suggestion on what I can do to improve the sound? The room has hardwood floor with multiple large area rugs. In addition, there is a crawl space under the floor.

How much have you played around with positioning? That's where I'd start. After that, you can try to tame the room with acoustical treatments. Also, out of curiosity, how much amplification are they getting?

I'm not going to be the most help, but any additional information along these lines will help out the people with more knowledge who will end up reading this.

Also, welcome.

How are you and with what are you powering them in zone 2, seperate amp, off the same amp but assigned zone 2?

Sounds like a bit of a power/signal loss going on.

Welcome Jack:

That's a big room to not have a sub. I think any essentially full-range speaker would sound bass-shy in a room that big as the built-i woofers really can't pressurize the room.

How big was the room they came out of?

I am powering these M60s using zone 2 from a Denon AVR-789. I don't typically listen to music in high volume. I think the Denon has ample power for my need. However, those signals do have to travel from one end of the house to the other on a 14 gauge wire across 2 sets of binding posts.

In my big room, the speakers actually sound better in moderate volume than high volume since I am losing bass like crazy.

Thanks

Thanks.

I was going to purchase a pair of Definitive BP7006 with built-in sub. However, I didn't because I thought the M60s have plenty of bass. I now think about it, I am not even sure if a sub will help in a room like this. In addition, I thought of getting a pair of M80s instead but again I may run into the same situation.

Thanks.

I tried a few spots where I would like the speakers to be. There was a spot where the speakers seemed to sound better but unfortunately not much better. I am curious to know if mounting these speakers higher will help. Or may be have 2 pairs of W22s mounting on the wall instead of having a pair of M60s on the floor?

You definitely will not gain bass by going to the W-22's. A large speaker would be better for a room of that size. Do you have an option to borrow a sub from a friend or local shop just to see if that's a move in the right direction for you?

I have a sub for my zone 1 where the home theater is. I can borrow that to see if it helps. Unfortunately, my Denon amp does not support a sub in zone 2. I think I have two choices: Get a second amp and a second sub for my big room; Or get a pair of speakers with built-in sub. Unfortunately, Axiom does not make something like that.

You could always use the high level speaker inputs for the sub.

I helped Jack setup his main room and second zone. When he first got the M60's he was complaining of the speakers sounding too bright and wanted to return them.

I convinced him it was his room acoustics. We move the M60's into his main home theater room and they sounded great and just how we both expected them to sound. That room happens to be smaller and carpeted as well as a little more closed off. But move them into his great room and the sound really gets lost. He has hardwood floors everywhere fully opening up into other rooms which are all tile. Lots of windows and not a lot of wall treatments.

Before you go the Def-Tech route, try a few things and give us some info. First, if the room is bigger, and bass is the issue, I don't think you can assume the Denon 700 is supplying plenty of power. But before we let those worms out, try this: Put the Denon in your second room, and test the speakers with a clean short run from the main amps, not the surrounds/zone 2. Mess with Bass and Treble settings to see how much you can gain from the best possible set up and locations. If that set up is not good enough, you know you need to make big changes and can skip all the second zone issues at this point.

If that sounds good, then you have options. Increase the power to zone 2 with a second cheap AVR or buy a stand alone amp (with tone controls). If you notice improvement but still not enough bass, then a separate sub would be the way to to, but you have to work out the zone 2 issues with that. Adding a built-in sub (like Def-Tech) may be a good option in your situation, but be aware, most of what I (just me, don't freak!) have heard and read on the lower-end Def-Techs with built in subs does not cause me to believe you will find your answer there.

Most likely, in my opinion, you would be best served by a sat/sub setup. Smaller speakers higher up to avoid as many reflections, tied to a solid sub to move the mass of air needed to replicate natural sound even at lower levels.

On a side note, he has the Orb Audio People's Choice system in his main zone. They sound very good. I'll be interested to hear any comparison of Orbs vs the new Axiom Accents when they are released.

He said he was going to try the Orb Super 8 sub in the other room with the M60's and see if a sub really helps. The Orb Super 8 may not help as much as a better sub, but he should have an idea if a good sub will solve the big room issue.

Thanks. I forgot about that one. I am going to try it out.

Changing out speakers is not going to solve high frequency reflection issues. If you have a lot of flat bare surface, you should consider some sort of treatment. It may be as simple as carpet and some wall hangings at first reflection points.

If this is a music only system, you don't need a huge sub. A capable 10 incher will reach down into the 30Hz range quite nicely.

From my present perspective, the A1400-2 and the M80s would great in that room, sub not needed, not exactly a budget system.

Hi jackmlin,

Welcome. That's an enormous room--just under 20,000 cu. ft. You're going to absolutely require a big subwoofer. I'd suggest at the least, the Axiom EP500 or EP600, and preferably a pair of M80s. I assure you the deep bass from a pair of M80s, properly powered, with at least one EP500 subwoofer will not be "lost" or overwhelmed by the big space.

You're also underpowered; consider an outboard power amplifier with at least a clean 200 watts per channel.

As others have suggested, some simple room treatments will help a lot--by "treatments", some area rugs and perhaps some wall hangings.

Regards,

Alan

I guess I should have done the math. Thats a huge room!

Thanks everyone.

I moved the sub for my home theater to the big room to try it out. It improved the sound considerably although still not as good as having just the M60s in a small room. Since I was hearing plenty of bass using the sub, I came to the conclusion that the room size/shape is simply not conducive to very good sound. However, I will get a matching sub like EP175/350 for my M60s. Thanks again for your feedback.

Your problem is your room, it is to reflective and large. You need some throw rugs or something on the floor, wall hangings, etc. to improve your reflective properties. Also, a good sub, at least the 350 or higher, or even two subs would be needed.

My room is 8100+ cubic feet, I have 3 subs and m80's, a Denon 2805 and monoblock amps driving the 80's.

Jack,
Welcome to the forum. Your situation is different from mine, in that you already have the M60s so, my information may be unrelated. I was looking to buy all new Axiom speakers, but could not decide between M60s and M80s, so I ordered both to test out. If you are not looking to consider getting M80's (or ordering to test and return for full refund < 30 days, then ignore this post. (note: you'd pay $60 U.S. for return freight)

If you are interested in reading my A/B tests of the 60s vs. 80s in a large room, check out this thread.
Dave's M60 / M80 A/B test (just my opinion)
Go to page 3, 7/7, post # 255939 and Page 7, 4/11, post 256396.

My room is 3l'L x 23'W x ≈ 9" high (ht. is avg of vaulted ceiling). My room is half carpeted (the half that is the listening area. I do have to 8' sliding doors on the right wall, but it sounds like you may have much more glass than my space, as well as less sound absorbing furniture. IMO, your space would amplify the highs by reflecting them around more. I know wall hangings have been suggested, but my understanding is that you have more windows an not too much wall space. If drapes fit in to your decor likes, they would help a lot. Carpets on the hardwood floors at stated would help the sound a lot too. BUT, if you are not interested in adding lots of sound absorbing things, want to just use speakers that will accentuate the room's reflectiveness just a little less, then as mentioned a sub would be important toward that end. IMO, M80's are hands down a much better choice for a large room than M60's. Especially a large and very reflective room like yours.

Good luck in finding a compromise that best fits your decor, desired budget and 'effort level' to attain a sound you can live with in your space.