Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Technical Questions Room acoustics

Hey guys, I think my living room is inherently pretty poor for sound, but would like to hear some of your opinions. I have B&W DM602s and a Marantz 5002 AVR, and have been playing cds through a phillips dvd player. The sound seems to really be lacking in fullness, and after trying a few different receivers, I think it's really due to the room. It's big and has lots of hard surfaces. My ears hurt after listening for more than 15 minutes at moderate volumes. I'm wondering if anyone can give me some tips on what to do.....here's a pic of the room and setup:

Barkeep, assuming that by "moderate volume" you mean an average level no higher than about 80dB, you should be able to listen for hours without fatigue(or permanent hearing damage). If the room is causing the highs to be too prominent, turning down the treble control should help. Room treatments such as carpets on the floor, drapes on the windows, wall hangings, etc., can help tame the highs.

I do have a carpet between the entertainment center and couch. I forgot to draw that in. The windows have drapes too, but they're generally opened. The treble is at -1 right now. I'll try turning it down further, but I guess I thought one was supposed to use the receiver without adjusting the bass or treble too much, in order to get the true sound of the source.

Tone controls are meant to be used when the frequency response is skewed for some reason. Speakers are typically voiced by manufacturers so as to be pleasing in typically furnished home listening rooms. If a room is significantly more "live" or "dead" acoustically than what was contemplated, the sound won't be what was intended. Another factor is that much "pop" music is poorly recorded with boosted upper mid/lower treble frequencies so as to sound more impressive on mediocre equipment. This also calls for not being afraid to use the tone controls. Unless you're listening at dangerously high levels(have you measured?), extended listening, certainly far beyond 15 minutes, should be pleasant(unless the music itself is unpleasant).

Interesting response, thanks. Do you think it would be worth my time to try to isolate the back concrete walls, to maybe dampen the brightness? I also wonder why there seems to be a lack of full sound. The B&W DM602s are heralded as excellent speakers, and the Marantz should be able to give them enough juice, with 90 watts and a pretty hefty transformer inside. But, I'm just starting out in audio, and have a lot to learn

If the picture is drawn to scale, it appears that your couch is in the middle of the room. Perhaps you are sitting in a null area. Have you tried moving the couch back about 4 or 5 feet?

No I haven't moved the couch, but I've stood back behind the couch a few feet, and it seems the same. Is it maybe a problem that the speaker setup is on the right side of the room, instead of centralized?

The worst place is exact center, but that is more for low frequencies. I was going to say putting a throw rug between you and the speakers, but looks like you have done that. Keep in mind that reflections off the side walls and ceiling arrive at your ears a very short time after the direct sound arrives. Sometimes this can skew the sound. Some is good, but to much is not good.

Some think the home environment is different than recording studios, this is not true. If you ask any recording or engineering studio, they will say the home environment can benefit from "First Reflection Zone" treatments, just like a recording studio. Home furnishings can help like furniture, large decorative fake plants, wall hangings.

Most people don't want to hang actual treatments on their walls, but some can be very decorative, with the right fabric color.

Have you tried slightly towing in your speakers a bit so they aim a few feet behind your head?

Also, not sure what receiver you have, but if it has Audyssey setup, I personally highly recommend you use it, it WILL account for your room problems and flatten out the frequency response.

Consider swapping the cabinet and the audio and turn your couch towards that wall. You have very unbalanced side reflections that will hurt imaging and your couch is mid-room. Rotating should change the boundary issues. Given the equipment, it is a room issue so this change my be the least dramatic change in terms of cost.

Test run it with a just the AVR and speakers to see if it is better.

I see you have the speakers slightly toed in, I would try running them straight out and see how they sound this way, then in very small increments toe them back in till you achieve a stisfactory sound quality. I remember mojo talking about how his M80s sounded much better with much less toe in.

I will try messing around with the toe in...as for moving the system around it's a bit difficult to do. I'd like to avoid that, because there really isn't another good place for the TV. I don't know if I have audessey. Marantz is made by the same owners as denon apparently, but I don't know if it's included on the 5002. I did do a room calibration, but I think it only calibrates how far away the speakers are.

You have M.R.A.C. and all it does is set up the speaker distances and levels, no EQ. Do you have an SPL meter to double check the settings on the speakers? Just in case the receiver set things off a little.

I don't have an spl meter, but if I get one, and adjust the levels of my two speakers, will it really make a difference in the overall perceived fullness of sound? I was under the impression that tuning according to the spl meter was more or less for surround systems.

You want all your speakers and sub to be calibrated to the same SPL in dB's. This is for all listening purposes. Your built in setup mic and receiver should get the distances and levels pretty much as accurate as the RS meter.

Personally, I don't think an SPL meter is nearly as necessary in a 2-channel system, though it CAN help you to balance a subs' level and chart bass response!

WARNING: This might cause you to hate your room! If you are happy with the current sound of your system, walk away! Your mileage might vary. Ask your Doctor. Erections lasting longer than four hours...........

But it is noted many times around the web, that the auto cal systems will sometimes get things wrong, so a check with the meter would confirm everything is set up correctly.

Update: I got a Marantz 6000 cd player connected to the receiver now. The sound is a fair amount fuller than when I had my dvd player playing cds, attached with digital coax. Does this mean that the marantz cd player has a better DAC than the receiver?

Also, I'm starting to wonder if my setup is just too small for my room. I have the Marantz 5002 (90 wattsx7), Marantz 6000 cd player and B&W DM602 S3s for my set up. The sound is quite nice, but seems just too small. Should I fix this by feeding the speakers more wattage (get a receiver with 115x7, i.e.), or look at getting floorstanding speakers?

I'm at a loss, as to which solution would be the best and cheapest. I like the 602s very much, and would almost prefer not to have to replace them with bigger speakers.

Hi,sounds like you have a pretty nice set up going there, I am also running a Marantz the sr4002 with my system along with some Paradigm Studio 60's for the mains, the paradigms are pretty efficient speakers and the Marantz's 75w drove them very well. However I later added a small Rotel amp to the system 160wpc and the soundstage just opened right up. Currently waiting to receive a twin to my amp and try out some bi-amping, should be here this week.

I'm not too familiar with the efficiency of the B&Ws but have heard nothing but good for the line so yea I would try adding an amp to drive them as your Marantz like mine is equipped with multi outs - it's a worthwhile investment.

No, DACs have been a mature technology for quite a few years now. The small measurable differences that still exist between different DACs aren't sufficient to create an audible difference. Also, you don't mention what type of connection that you're using now. If it's still a digital connection, the DACs in the player aren't being used. Possibly the output of your new player is slightly higher than your DVD player at the same setting of your receiver and the slightly higher sound level makes the sound seem more "full" although it's simply a matter of volume.

It's highly unlikely that you need a more powerful receiver than your 5002, especially at a listening distance of only about 8'. You don't mention what sound levels that you're now reaching, possibly since without an SPL meter it can't be judged accurately. The 5002 should be capable of providing peak levels of over 100dB with your 602s. If this isn't enough(although more might cause permanent hearing damage), and that's what you mean by "small", certainly a 115 watt unit isn't going to change things significantly. The difference between 90 watts and 115 watts is only about 1dB more in maximum sound level; e.g., if you now can hit 105dB on brief peaks with the 5002, this would just increase to 106dB with the new unit, a barely noticeable difference.

It isn't entirely clear what you mean exactly by "small", but it may not be anything that can be cured with floorstanding speakers. Bigger speakers don't necessarily mean bigger sound.

Hmm, so if getting a bigger amplifier won't help much, and larger speakers might not help much either, I'm not sure what to try next.

AS for the DACs, I was using the digital out on the dvd player, and the analog out on the cd player. So I was in fact seeing a difference between the DAC of the Receiver, and the DAC of the cd player. Maybe the transport of the cd player compared to the transport of the cheap dvd player make some difference? The sound is definately better with the Marantz 6000 cd player hooked up over RCA cinch cables, compared to the dvd player hooked up digitally.

As for a small sound, I mean that the bottom end seems to be lacking. The speakers can go deep enough, but there seems to be some ummmpf missing. I wonder if my big-ass room just sucks the bass out of the speakers...

I'm not familiar with the B&W DM602s and you have already had a lot of good advice here but I'll add in another thought to consider.

About 4 or 5 weeks ago, a work acquaintance invited me over to troubleshoot his PC, a skill I'm getting less skilled at and less tolerant of, as the years go by. We got chatting and he commented on his stereo setup in his very large, cathedral ceiling room. A lot of open space, wood walls and glass everywhere. He had a similar complaint. His desk area was near the back away from the stereo and he felt he had to turn it up way too loud to hear it properly. He complained of the same fatigue symptoms.

He demonstrated the sound from his JBL floorstanders and to me, they were sounding very thin. I don't think bright is the right word but they definately lacked what I will call richness. I can see why he would be tempted to turn it up but when he did for just a short period, I could already tell I'd become fatigued after a while.

My highly unprofessional guess was that a good, strongly sized subwoofer would help to fill in the richness that seemed to be missing. On a whim that only can come about when you combine two men with beer, we took his minivan and the two of us went through the torture driving 10 minutes to my house and carrying my EP500 up from my basement and delivering it to his living room. I also intended to take my db meter but forgot it after sweating the trip up my basement stairs with the sub.

With just tweaking by ear, the EP500 definitely seemed to fill out what was missing. He went from cranking it to -10 on his amp to listen in the back of the room to -21. It was still slightly loud but not only was it not stupidly loud anymore but it sounded much more full and lifelike. Something you could definitely listen to for hours and stay relaxed. I ended up leaving it there with him for the weekend so he could demonstrate to his wife.

Hopefully, I've inspired an Axiom purchase but his brother who sold him the JBLs owns an AV store in Vancouver, so I probably not.

Just another angle to consider. Maybe you don't need more power, just something to fill in the gaps.

If you were using two different input-types from the two players, you're comparing apples to oranges...

It sure sounds like you need a good sub to compliment your speakers. It could be a combination of a big room and the natural roll-off of the speakers.

Thanks for all the excellent and thought out answers you guys. I really appreciate it.

I think I have to agree that probably the best solution is to get a sub. That way I shouldn't have to crank up the volume too much, and potentially damage something. I did get to try an 8" down-firing sub from Elac (german brand), but it sounds a bit sloppy.

Can anyone suggest a nice clean sub to try, for the dimensions of my living room?

thanks!

-Tom

Well, the EP350 is fantastic, or you could look at something from Hsu Research or SVS. Elemental Designs is supposed to be pretty good, but I don't know if anyone on these forums actually has heard them.

My EP500 from Axiom would do a great job of filling that size space. EXTREMELY powerful when required but blends smoothly for music.
I'm done lending it out though so you will have to buy your own.

Axiom, SVS and HSU seem to be the most talked about models around here but the Axiom EP500 is the only one of this caliber I have actually listened to.

I think the point was that moving up to 115 watts won't make any real difference over the 90 you have. Try moving up to 300 or more and see if that gives you what you need. It worked for me. Cheapest route, go to a guitar center or other pro sound place with a satisfaction guarantee. Drop a two channel pro amp ($500 and up) into your system and see if you get what you are missing - if not, bring it back!
But be careful, I don't know your B&W's but the extra power did force my PSB tower's bass driver to hit full extension at moderate-high levels (95-ish) on Dire Straits, etc. Never had that happen before even at much higher SPL (105) on my Denon 3300. So you could punt your woofer into your lap if you are not careful. (This gives me a new appreciation of the Axiom M-80 running with 1200 watts outside. My PSB's could not do that, no chance.)
I recommend the QSC GX3 or GX5 as they have unbalanced inputs so you don't need a XLR-RCA adaptor, which introduced a 60hz hum when used in my system.

I found this review of the B&W's, looks like they are similar to the M3's. So they should be offering a sense of bass but would be lacking true bass and could very well leave you wanting more in your size of room. Get that sub.

I think even the lower end sub offerings from Axiom would work better than just the 2 bookshelf speakers alone. As was mentioned, the EP350 is a very good sub for the money and it can give you some good impact if you ever get into HT.

Hi dmbartender,

I just looked up the specs on your B&W speakers, and they are way too small for your big space. It's no surprise that there is no bottom end. I thought those were floorstanding speakers!

Anyway, I'd term those B&W's as just OK, not in the same league as the Axiom M80s v2s or M60v2 floorstanders. (The latter models are comparable to the expensive B&W 800 series.)

The average living room is 2,100 cu. ft. Given the volume of your room, you should consider the M80s or M60s and a subwoofer like the EP500.

Regards,

Alan