Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Anyone running M80s off an emotiva UPA-7?

Looking to pick up the Epic 80 system plus one extra QS8, and was eying this amp. Was wondering if anyone had any issues with it.

Historically, Emo has been hit or miss when driving the m80's. I think the recent models of amps from them have been more reliable. What receiver are you using and are you sure you need an amp?

I haven't purchased anything yet, just researching equipment for a new living room HT I am throwing together within the next few months. I have always used all in one receivers (usually Denon), but I want to try seperates this time around. I keep reading the sound is usually much more detailed.

Right now I am playing around with getting an emotiva setup (the UPA-7 and their pre/pro once it comes out), a high end reciever like a Denon 4308CI, or maybe going all out and picking up axioms 8 channel amp.

The room I am setting up is only 1300 cubic feet. The other options is not need all this extra power, and just pair up the UPA-7 with m60's, vp150, QS8s, and forget about the M80s.

If you can swing Axiom's A1400-8 get it, it is a great amp. I would also suggest looking at Outlaw Audio for some cheaper multichannel amps.

With that receiver I would not think you would need an amp. I've tried various receiver only and receiver/amp combinations, I don't know if I would say there is more detail as an amp amplifies, doesn't make things magically more detailes.

I do get some more headroom when using amps that might help during dynamic movies or music, but most receivers alone should be adequate.

I agree with Jay on Outlaw, or maybe look at Axiom's offerings.

Mike, I believe that in the other thread you mentioned that your listening distance would be around 6-7'. At that distance and in that size room any of the receivers in the 100 watt area are more than enough for listening at comfortably loud(but safe)levels and handling the brief peaks that can occur in some source material. You don't even need a particularly expensive receiver unless there's some feature that you must have. Going "all out" in spending money on this should only apply to something that's of actual benefit.

Thanks for the info Jake, and I am pretty sure I am going to take the receiver route with the m80s. By safe do you mean that if I push the speakers to hard with the receiver I can damage them? I assume clipping is a warning that damage can be an issue, but I would have to turn up the receiver pretty dam loud for that to happen, correct?

I'm pretty sure John is referring to your hearing, Mike.

Sure, Mike; both the speakers and the receiver can handle more than your ears can without permanent damage.

Lol, okay, thanks for the info John!

Another thing to consider is I believe the release date on Emotiva's new Processor is June 2010. It looks like a pretty great processor too especially if it comes out at under 2k shipped to Canada. Their shipping rates to Canada are quite pricey on the heavy amps. The prices are fair... just a lot.

I'm going to continue to drive my axiom's with my dated AVR until then as I am very happy with their performance right now. When that processor comes out next year I will consider going seperates I think, mainly just for a change and I like to buy new things Not because I think I will sonically be able to hear a difference.

That processor's been coming for the last 2 or 3 years. I'll believe it when I see it.

Its completed.

I believe when you are discussing Emotiva's Pre-Pros and their release date, it is the XMC-1 that looks like a tentative June/10 release date. The tentative price on this model is suppose to be $999US. Their less expensive UMC-1 will be coming in the next month or two.
It is priced at $699US.

I'm not holding my breath on the tentative pricing of 1kUS for the XMC-1. The feature set of that amp is pretty great to come in at that price. I just think too much time has lapsed since that price was even talked about until when it will be released for anyone to actually hold them to that price i think may be unrealistic. I know I will be happy if it comes in under 2k Canadian after shipping and exchange, which come next June could be anything.

You are right about that(not holding your breath) in terms of the product finally coming to market. I would submit though that Emotiva, although not quite as delayed as the Outlaw Pre-Pro, could offer special deals on their product since because of the ongoing delays, a significant number of potential customers on their "pre order list" got tired of waiting and have gone on to make purchases elsewhere. For that reason they have created "another" pre-order list. I believe they will have to make it pretty attractive to get other people back on side.

Outlaw is in an even worse situation since they have gotten in bed with Sherwood Newcastle, a company that has always been notoriously late with product introductions. S/N is STILL having problems with the introduction of their new "flagship" AVR the R-972 with re-occurring "bugs". The Pre-Pro(997) that Outlaw is introducing is on this same platform and can't bring it to market until at least sixty days after S/N ships theirs to retailers. They are already selling an older Onkyo Pre-Pro on their website to make sales and keep some of their customers on board.

If anything I would bet that because of the loss of potential customers, when these products finally come to market we are going to see some pretty enticing packages. it should be interesting.

I didn't see another pre-order list for the XMC-1, I should put my name on it. I'm also off to read more about the 997. It's fun to spend money I haven't made yet

If you're looking for a pre/pro which is delivering on it's promises today, not at some vague point in time in the future; check out these:

Integra DHC-40.1
Integra DHC-80.1
Onkyo Pro PR-SC5507P

I have seen, touched and heard the UMC at emofest and I wish I had waited a little longer instead of buying an Onkyo. I will be sending it off for repairs soon. The upa-7 should drive the M80s well it is the same design as the LPA-1 which drove my M80s with no problems until I upgraded to the XPA-5 and later the XPA-2.

ClubNeon... the 'vague point in time' is more in line with my cash flow then making any purchases right now I'm alright with waiting.

The relatively new pre-order list is for the UMC-1 NOT the XMC-1.
I doubt anything will be even mentioned about the XMC-1 until all the UMC-1 orders are finally filled.

In relation to the other suggestions that were made, unfortunately the Integra and to a lesser extent the Onkyo products, despite the high Canadian dollar, are GROSSLY over priced in Canada and the local distributor refuses to update that situation with his retailers, two of whom I deal with, who literally have thrown their hands up in the air with regard to the pricing.

The Integra DHC 40.1 has an MSRP of $1299US, while the local retailers in the GTA want $1800CDN and $2800CDN for the 80.1 and that is despite a Canadian dollar running around 94-95 cents! The Onkyo Pre-Pro is their "professional" version and not even available at this time in Canada. It looks like the Outlaw 997 is still "months" away.

So unless one is willing to cross the border and pay the duty, the UMC-1 looks like the closest to filling the needs of someone who wants a Pre-Pro at a "reasonable" price.

I was on the wait list for the UMC and finally gave up.I did happen to get a good deal on a Integra DHC9.9 from my local dealer.If it wasn't for that, then I would of held for the UMC1.At$699.US it would come it at about $1,000.CDN.Not many pre/pros you can buy up here for that, also the reason I picked up a LPA1 for $499 way back when.By the way DHC+LPA+Axioms=Sweetness!

Hopefully, the 9.9 was a good deal for you since the one retailer I know who had one still wanted $1800 for it although it is basically now a "discontinued" product. Still too much money .

I have an LPA-1, which is the same thing as the UPA-7 except that the 6+7 channels on the UPA are the same as the 1-5, whereas on the LPA-1 the 6/7 channels are handled by less powerful amps. So, the UPA-7 is superior. I've had the LPA-1 for almost 3 years now.

No problems at all running my M80V2's, VP150, and QS8's. M80's are bi-wired/bi-amped on channels 1/2 and 3/4, VP150 is on 5, QS8's are on 6 and 7. Very happy with the setup. Beautiful, crisp, clear sound. Out to and beyond LOUD levels.

I have had one shutdown problem. But I caused it by stupidly and accidentally shorting a speaker wire while moving a speaker when my system was powered up. It correctly shut itself down when that happened. Powered right back up after cycling the power.

Others have had problems with Emo's higher-end amps, running various 4-ohm speakers (not just M80's). But I don't recall ever reading of anyone having problems with the "low end" amps and 4-ohm speakers.

I don't know if it has been mentioned in this thread but the UMC-1 is being delayed...again. For those still interested in this product you should go over to their forums and read up on the latest information .

It is crazy over there. Dan sending out private messages to everyone to remain calm and respect each other, rampant flame wars, breakdown of discussion, ugly name calling, etc. The Emo Lounge is not a happy family right now. Very "emo" indeed.

Now I like my LPA-1, but the UMC-1 gets my vote for the Home Theater Vaporware product of the decade. They've been saying "soon" for three years now. The whole UMC-1 debacle is absolutely ridiculous. I had been on the pre-order list for 2.5 years when I finally decided that enough was enough and canceled. I wish the UMC-1 well, but I decided months ago that I'm not waiting for it any longer. It may be the best prepro ever made, but I've lost a lot of confidence in Emotiva's abilities because of this whole mess.

Of course, my alternative to the UMC-1 was always going to be the Outlaw 990 ... <crickets chirping>

Before long, I'm going to be driven back into the mass-market arms of Denon or Pioneer. Perhaps overpriced, but at least they're able to get stuff done.

Unless they're Sherwood Newcastle.

I was looking forward to the Outlaw, but have given up on it. Now, the Onkyo Pro PR-SC5507P has my eye.

It would seem that Emotiva and Outlaw have the same problems but for different reasons.

Emotiva is pretty much building a unit from the ground up while Outlaw got in bed with a company(Sherwood Newcastle)who has always been notoriously late with introduction of its products. It looks like, since they have little or no control over the hardware and software issues, by the time it comes to market(if it comes to market)the Outlaw 997 could already be two generations behind the mainstream products hence the price they would be asking would be "way out of line". I gather since they hooked up with Onkyo to sell its Pre-Pro they must be getting worried.

Despite its issues, it looks like Emotiva is at least in control of its own product and the price point for the UMC-1 is without competition.

Either way it is unfortunate and one would hope that this doesn't cause too much damage to these companies reputations(and bottom line) since they sell great products at great price points. Unfortunately, based on the forums, it looks like a significant number of people have tired of waiting and jumped ship to the mainstream manufacturers.

xpa5 + m80v2's here with no problems only sonic bliss....

TURBO-I have both EMOTIVA XPA 2 AND XPA 5 BOTH amps. I discovered distortion and clipping issue these amps. This only happened to me when I select my listening DSP modes on my Denon to 2 channels-Direct and PureDirect (2 or 7 ch stereo, dolby digital are OK). For the XPA 5 I can raise the the volume 3 db high than XPA2 before I get into the distortion. Try yours playing a heavy bass music...rap or pop. I am returning my XPA 2, keep XPA 5 for my c/surrounds and look into other amp for my M80.

I got rid of my MPS-1 Emo years ago, they kept shutting down. Until Emo can show me their amps can drive an efficient speaker like the m80's, I won't go back. GS, the 80's do not go below 4ohm across the freq range, no matter what Lonnie or others on the Emo forum will tell you.

When I first got my RPA-1, it had shut down a couple times on me, as I've mentioned on this forum many times. When I contacted Lonnie, he gave me the usual "M80's dropping below 4 ohms talk". Ever since I removed the side panels from it, thus allowing more ventilation, it hasn't shut down on me since; and I play my music very loud sometimes.

Now, let's hope that I didn't just jinx myself!

I am running the XPA-5, XPA-2, and the UMC-1 (before that an onkyo tx-nr1007 and before that a yamaha rx-v1800 with a LPA-1)with my M80'2 and the sound is amazing and distortion free. Plenty of headroom. I will say if you are getting and XPA-2 to call them and let them know you are using it with M80's. I went to Emofest last fall and I was very impressed.

The UMC-1 is built like a tank, but still has a few bugs for me after the first firmware update. Although the firmware update resolved a lot of my issues. I love the sound quality it blows away my last two receivers. YMMV but I think if anyone is interested they should try their products. I have been happy with all four Emotiva products I have owned and I love my Axiom speakers.

I am sure it is disappointing to those that have had problems with the M80/emotiva combo I have just not had those issues.

How are the 2 ch music and movie SQ with UMC 1 compare with AVR? I am on a waiting list to try out their UMC 1. I heard it blows away Onkyo prepro 886 and very good with 2 channel music. Also, how is the Torino faroudja video processor? Last what did you do with XPA 2 for your F/R not getting distortion and clipping issues. Like I stated in other thread I get these 2 issues during PURE and DIRECT music modes, in rap or heavy bass pop. Have you try these two music modes?

And my amps are connected to a dedicated 20 amp circuit.

The Onkyo 886, among others, is a very good Pre-Pro. Realistically speaking, considering the fact that, today, only a "handful" of companies manufacture the processing chips and DACs that go in to most if not ALL of much of recent AVRs and Pre-Pros, from my twenty years experience in the CE business, I always look at the idea that something "blows away" something else as being a "slight" exaggeration.

I cant comment on the sound quality of the Onkyo 886, but I could hear an improvement in detail and sound stage on music compared to my Onkyo tx-nr1007. as far as video I use passthrough and I dont see any difference between onkyo and the umc. Movies sound better as well. I dont think the difference is as noticeable as adding the xpa amps was.

My xpa-2 has different resistors on the protection circuit which makes it less sensitive. I have driven it pretty hard with no shutdowns.

As far as heavy bass. I will have to try them again without the sub. I would imagine that heavy bass at some level would be too much for the bass drivers in the M80s. They do pump out quite a bit of bass but they are only 6.5's. On my system I am sure they would bottom out before my xpa-2 will clip. On higher frequency bass or with my sub it is not a problem.

[quote=gmeyer]

My xpa-2 has different resistors on the protection circuit which makes it less sensitive. I have driven it pretty hard with no shutdowns.

You stated to you have diff. resistors...is that a special order from EMO to have it changed out for you? I have the XPA 2 for 3 weeks now. I do like the EMO amp. It perfectly match SQ and dynamic heardroom I wanted with my AXIOM speakers. Beside the Distortion and shut down this would be perfectly paired.

Yes I picked up the amp at Emofest and they changed the resistors and shipped it to me. It should only keep the protection circuit from triggering as easy not sure about distortion/clipping.

That's what I figured about those resistors. There's something else happening if there's distortion.

most people have had problems with the xpa2 m80 combo this is no secret.. I have played my xpa5 in all channel stereo and just stereo(m80's)full range at loud levels for hours with no shutdown's ever.
I am not saying this to start a shit storm I am just giving observations.
the m80's seem to be the speaker with the most problems when being driven by emo amps. there are many 4 ohm speakers that have no problems with emo amps.. including emotiva's own 4 ohm speakers.
I know test's were done with sirquacks mps1 being crossed over above 80hz(way above 4 ohms I believe) and the amp still shut down which is crazy. But to this day I have never seen any info on what the m80's impedance is 40hz down to 10hz

Down to 20Hz it doesn’t seem to dip below 4ohms:

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/axiom_m80v2/

Sounds to me like Emo knows it’s the protection circuit causing it since they are offering a modified version. I wonder what effect that has on the amp’s performance since you’d think they would just make the modified circuit standard unless there is some reason not to. I know of no other amps having this problem even Emo amps.

Turbo, there have been other brands of 4ohm speakers with issues, even 4ohm bookshelf designs from AV123 (rockets, etc.)so it is not specific to Axiom. It is possible that the new offerings from Emo have improved. Also, keep in mind how many amplifier brands are out on the market, and you don't hear about them having issues with 80's.

"Also, keep in mind how many amplifier brands are out on the market, and you don't hear about them having issues with 80's." This is true....
I can't think of what model rocket was 4 ohm though?

Yea I was looking for that graph... Thanks..
It would be great if axiom would give us the full range down below 20hz just to clarify this low ohm rumor.

I see no point in going any lower with the graph. It seems simple, piss poor design on the amp side.

Axiom graphs may satisfy some but I have no doubt they would be meaningless to “Blame Canada” (M80s) crowd which is why I posted the Soundstage measurements.

The graph has been posted multiple times and there's still folks that swear they drop down to 2 ohm but provide no proof. What else can be said.

I don't think that is justifiable

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/best-of-awards/738-secrets-best-of-2009-product-awards.html

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_4/secrets-best-of-2006-awards-12-2006.html

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/best-of-awards/521-secrets-best-of-2008-product-awards.html

http://www.audioholics.com/buying-guides...the-year-awards

http://www.audioholics.com/buying-guides...the-year-awards

http://www.audioholics.com/buying-guides...the-year-awards

http://www.audioholics.com/buying-guides...-product-awards

Amen!! give us the 20hz and below impedance and be done with it

What other dedicated amps that you know of has had problems shutting down with the M80?

I have run the M80s with a Kenwood Basic M2A, Rotel RB 1070, Rotel RB 1080 and Luxman M117. None have shut down or even had a hiccup with the Axioms.

So that brings me back to believing the amp being the problem.

And subwoofer frequency response graphs should go up to 22 kHz.

Good point seeing most crossover the M80s well above 20HZ.

Chet, the Emotiva claim re the M80 impedance has always struck me as a rather nonsensical attempt to justify themselves. Regardless of whether the impedance around 10Hz would be about 2 ohms, that couldn't affect normal operation in the way that some have experienced. First, there's essentially no normal program material down there, and even if there was, the M80 would be so far down at that point(on the order of 30dB down)that the amount of power used would be very low. An impedance of that magnitude can't itself cause a problem; it's a combination of low impedance and high power that could cause a shutdown.

Hey Fred, check it out the reviewer used Hiromi’s “Beyond Standard” SACD.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/power-amplifiers/496.html?task=view&start=2

Again, AFAIK no amp or even receiver other than the XPA-2 w/o the modified protection circuit is having this sort of systemic problem. So even if an impedance graph shows the M80 dipping to below 2 ohms under 20 Hz, and it even mattered as John pointed out, it would only show that what Emo is saying “that the XPA-2 can’t handle loads much below 4ohms with much power” is true.

Also, Emotiva says not to use the XPA-2 bridged to drive anything below 8ohms which is why it sells the XPA-1 for $200 more to do the heavy lifting.

Thanks for the heads up Dean. I had no idea it was released on sacd.

It was in the first batch of multi-channel SACDs I bought when I got my first Oppo.

I know the whole situation is strange. That is why it would be great if Ian would silence this rumor. By confirming it or not.

I love my axiom setup and am just curious because my xpa5 works great with them.

What difference would it make?

"There is none so blind as those who will not smell the roses for the forest".

You can quote me on that.