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#289090 - 01/28/10 08:11 PM dual ep600's anyone?
dakkon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1844
Hello,

I was considering getting a second ep600, for stereo listening. Giving my m60's way more bottom end, due to the fact that they are not true full range speakers. I auditioned a pair wilson Sasha's, they have 1 tweeter, 1 midrange, and 2 subwoofers in a combined cabinet. now i realize, that comparing speakers that retail for close to 20k$ to a pair of m60's is not really fare at all, but i was thinking if i add an ep600 to each of the m60's then i would have the full range, for only 1800$ more money. i would position the 600's to match the 60's sonically.. I have a Krell hts 7.1 that will process stereo in full range+sub, as well as krell amps, so power is not an issue at all...


has anyone else done this or tried it? i searched but came up with nothing... maybe Alan will have something to say on this topic?


Thanks guys!

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#289112 - 01/28/10 10:46 PM Re: dual ep600's anyone? [Re: dakkon]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16267
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
There's certainly nothing wrong with this idea -- it has often been said that two subs are better than one. But before I can give you a real answer, I want to know more about your reason for looking into it.

Do you feel your current system is lacking in any specific area? Depending on what you're after, you might actually be better off going with a pair of M80s than an additional EP600. (They're cheaper, too.) It's important to keep in mind that any bass handled by the EP600 that's below the range that the M60s can reproduce is not localizable. Your ears cannot distinguish stereo below about 80 Hz.

The main reasons to go with two (or more) subwoofers versus one is that you can get smoother bass response throughout the room and/or higher output.
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#289119 - 01/28/10 11:34 PM Re: dual ep600's anyone? [Re: pmbuko]
dakkon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1844
with the Wilsons, the bass was definitely localized, you could tell where the bass was coming from.


i know what your saying for movie viewing the bass is not localized, but when the bass is recorded in stereo, like drums, with the Wilsons, it felt like you were in the middle of the drum set. You could almost tell the exact location of the drum being played.. now this was in a listening room, with a perfect set up... the 60's are more than enough for the mid's and highs. each speaker has almost an unlimited amount of power at its disposal. The frequency response is almost identical between the m60's and m80's, the 80s just play louder, and possibly slightly deeper..


if axiom made a speaker with the ep500+ m60's all in 1 cabinet i would buy it.. i guess that is what I'm looking for.....

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#289130 - 01/28/10 11:49 PM Re: dual ep600's anyone? [Re: dakkon]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17751
Loc: NoVA
I'm guessing that was more the harmonics, which would be produced by the higher level drivers--not the subs.

You might be surprised by the M80s...
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#289133 - 01/28/10 11:52 PM Re: dual ep600's anyone? [Re: Ken.C]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

I was thinking the same thing. I don't know if dual subs are the answer.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#289143 - 01/29/10 01:39 AM Re: dual ep600's anyone? [Re: dakkon]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16267
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
 Originally Posted By: dakkon
with the Wilsons, the bass was definitely localized, you could tell where the bass was coming from.

i know what your saying for movie viewing the bass is not localized, but when the bass is recorded in stereo, like drums, with the Wilsons, it felt like you were in the middle of the drum set. You could almost tell the exact location of the drum being played.. now this was in a listening room, with a perfect set up... the 60's are more than enough for the mid's and highs.


Drums have a lot of their audio energy well above the 80Hz mark, so it's not surprising that they were localizable. My M22s and EP500 do an excellent job of presenting the convincing illusion of a full drum kit in my living room. My system also handles the giant Chinese drum on this disc (highly recommended for deep amazing drum bass!) handily.

When all the soundwaves blend together, the sub makes it sound like my M22s are doing all the work. The drum's attack is in the treble range and comes from the M22, which "anchors" the entire sound, bass included, to a specific area of the soundstage.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#289145 - 01/29/10 03:48 AM Re: dual ep600's anyone? [Re: dakkon]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10372
Dak, as the others have pointed out, when an instrument is playing a note that has a fundamental frequency in the low bass area it can still be localized because of the higher harmonic frequencies which are generated, even though the fundamental itself is omni-directional.
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#289158 - 01/29/10 07:02 AM Re: dual ep600's anyone? [Re: JohnK]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13321
Loc: Iowa
I'll have to say that adding an extra sub probably won't give you what your asking. I would re-look at your speaker setup/calibration settings, it is possible you have something wrong there (for ex. crossover, phase, trim, etc. ), or speakers position, toein...
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#289164 - 01/29/10 07:38 AM Re: dual ep600's anyone? [Re: pmbuko]
alan Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3186
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
Hi all,

Yes, it's a tricky concept to get your head around. As pmbuko has pointed out, it's the "crack" of a mallet against the drum head that is in the midrange, and that is reproduced by your front left and right speakers. The subsequent slow reverberations of the drum's diaphragm at 30 Hz or 25 Hz or 40 Hz are what add the heft--those are omnidirectional and your brain integrates the two and makes it seem as if the big drum is placed somewhere at the front of the soundstage.

In my setup, the EP500 is against the rear wall at one end of the couch, yet the big orchestral bass drum sound on a recording is nicely placed at the back of the orchestra up front.

With movie soundtrack explosions off-screen, the initial percussive part of the explosion is placed by one of your surround speakers at the side or back, then the deep bass energy of the explosion is reproduced by the subwoofer. Your brain "hears" the explosion at the side/rear, even if the subwoofer happens to be at the front (all this assumes correct setting of the sub crossover to 80 Hz or lower.)

Regards,
Alan
_________________________
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert

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#289189 - 01/29/10 12:23 PM Re: dual ep600's anyone? [Re: alan]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3881
Loc: Up yonder
I've listened to Wilson Hush Puppies. Besides being just about as ugly as I could ever imagine a speaker being, I did not like their sound, at all. Way too boomy. I was actually embarrassed for the guy who bought them who thought they were one of the best speakers on the planet because of the cost. But I didn't like him much either, so I got over it.

I'm just telling you this because no Axiom speaker will ever sound like Wilsons. If you like that sound, you should look for a different speaker all together. A sub will not help you find what the Wilson had that you apparently liked.
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